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Post by Queen E on Dec 19, 2004 20:50:14 GMT -5
Thanks. Good comment about Faith feeling she had all the power and control. Lilah wasn't as good as a mentor like the Mayor, tho. Plus, Faith had a taste of what it felt like to *be* Buffy - and really have power. When you say W&H expected Angel to be non-corporeal, I assume that means they thought he would've been the one to wear the amulet, not Spike. Yes, and that comes up even more strongly in Sanctuary (but I'll get into that in my review). There is so much in both this episodes, it's mind-boggling. And yes, that seemed to be the idea...offer Angel W & H, let him be Buffy's champion (which they assumed neither of them could resist), and then he is under their thumb (well, more under their thumb).
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Post by Riff on Dec 20, 2004 13:50:07 GMT -5
Again, a pleasure to read! I’d agree that Marquez is really there as a cypher for the themes of responsibility and redemption that will play out in both Angel’s and Faith’s arcs. You’re attention to the needs and wants of characters in the ep, and how they are symbolised through food, is comprehensive. As always, you notice something fundamental that went straight over my head. Eetah, of course, about Faith as the prime actress and role player. And she plays her roles very convincingly. Had we not seen what effect being Buffy had on her, how she came to embrace Buffy’s morality, Faith would seem well on the way to evil until the end of this ep. As it is, though, we know that a good woman is there and so her gleefully dark moments have a manic aura. I loved what you said about the torture groups, to which I could add one of my favourite moments in Five by Five: when Angel catches the crossbow bolt Faith has fired at him, and she says, “That was so cool! This is gonna be fun!” ;D As you point out, there is a lot of sexual metaphor. This is one of those moments in the Jossverse when sexuality becomes dark and destructive. As on other occasions, this represents the low point for a character. Faith and Angel. That’s something else I missed. Is there a smiley with a dunce’s cap? I did notice the thematic parallels between them, including the fact that both of them torture Watchers (both tied to chairs – I wonder if there’s more to that than just a mirroring of the two scenes?). You’re absolutely right that Faith at some level believes Angel will understand her self-loathing and death wish. He understands better than she thinks. That rainy alley where characters are transformed… This episode is the first time I can remember seeing Wes have that expression on his face, the one he has during almost all of Season 4 (except while under Jasmine’s influence and, sometimes, talking to Fred). As for the rain as symbol of rebirth, it does make one wonder about the conclusion of Not Fade Away, doesn’t it?
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Post by Karen on Dec 20, 2004 17:32:35 GMT -5
Again, a pleasure to read! I’d agree that Marquez is really there as a cypher for the themes of responsibility and redemption that will play out in both Angel’s and Faith’s arcs. You’re attention to the needs and wants of characters in the ep, and how they are symbolised through food, is comprehensive. As always, you notice something fundamental that went straight over my head. Eetah, of course, about Faith as the prime actress and role player. And she plays her roles very convincingly. Had we not seen what effect being Buffy had on her, how she came to embrace Buffy’s morality, Faith would seem well on the way to evil until the end of this ep. As it is, though, we know that a good woman is there and so her gleefully dark moments have a manic aura. I loved what you said about the torture groups, to which I could add one of my favourite moments in Five by Five: when Angel catches the crossbow bolt Faith has fired at him, and she says, “That was so cool! This is gonna be fun!” ;D As you point out, there is a lot of sexual metaphor. This is one of those moments in the Jossverse when sexuality becomes dark and destructive. As on other occasions, this represents the low point for a character. Faith and Angel. That’s something else I missed. Is there a smiley with a dunce’s cap? I did notice the thematic parallels between them, including the fact that both of them torture Watchers (both tied to chairs – I wonder if there’s more to that than just a mirroring of the two scenes?). You’re absolutely right that Faith at some level believes Angel will understand her self-loathing and death wish. He understands better than she thinks. That rainy alley where characters are transformed… This episode is the first time I can remember seeing Wes have that expression on his face, the one he has during almost all of Season 4 (except while under Jasmine’s influence and, sometimes, talking to Fred). As for the rain as symbol of rebirth, it does make one wonder about the conclusion of Not Fade Away, doesn’t it? Riff, I think I love you.
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Post by Lola m on Dec 20, 2004 21:26:55 GMT -5
Riff, I think I love you. **nods a lot** Um. About the very excellent idea re: the rain scene at the end of Not Fade Away, that is. ;D Lola (1)
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Post by Karen on Dec 20, 2004 22:20:10 GMT -5
**nods a lot** Um. About the very excellent idea re: the rain scene at the end of Not Fade Away, that is. ;D Lola (1) Oh, of course. ;D I always had hope, but now I have a reason to hope.
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Post by Rachael on Dec 22, 2004 13:10:12 GMT -5
Erin! She not here. She took off for Christmas, and I didn't say bye first. *sigh* At any rate, I loved your analysis, as usual, and because I come late to the game, my comments are gonna be limited to: EETAH! (Especially about the rain bits; very cool.) And YOU RAWK! Dude. Neat analysis. Totally. (Seriously, hon, I love reading these. You always pull out so much more than I saw myself.
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Post by Riff on Dec 23, 2004 7:07:03 GMT -5
*laughing* Hmmm. There seem to be some backhanded compliments there somewhere. Seriously, thank you both. The first time I saw NFA, one of the things I thought (among my overall feelings of sadness and disappointment) was that the rainy alley scene at the end links to moments of birth/rebirth in AtS and BtVS. The first example that sprang to mind was Connor’s arrival in the Angelverse. I don’t think we have to worry about our people. They’ll be fine. Merry Christmas!
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Post by Nickim on Dec 24, 2004 9:14:22 GMT -5
Sorry it took me so long to read this analysis, Erin. You did a great job, as always.
Faith is dead inside, she has almost no feelings left. And, she's been "dead" for the long months she was in the coma. If not for modern medicine, she would be truly dead. I really liked the way you phrased this:
I especially liked this insight:
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Post by Nickim on Dec 24, 2004 9:21:23 GMT -5
Great review. Really looking forward to Sanctuary. This got me to thinking, and I was watching The Replacement today and I noticed that it's raining in that episode, symbolizing a turning point for Xander. Now I'll have to start looking for where else rain is used as well. Hells Belles comes to mind when Xander walks out of the wedding into the rain.
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Post by Nickim on Dec 24, 2004 9:22:40 GMT -5
Oh, thank you so much...would like to have it done before Christmas (fingers crossed and a little freaked out now that I realize it's exactly one week from now). The rain as baptism is all over Buffy and Angel, completely missing from Firefly (which might have some interesting implications). Also several films in (my) recent memory...the one that's coming to mind now is "The Shawshank Redemption" (I don't want to ruin it for anyone who hasn't seen it, but there is definitely a very precise "rain" moment where that's exactly what it represents. There could be an essay for our site in this, for an interested party, methinks. Thanks for both reading and posting, SOL. I think this is my favorite part of writing these...I always learn more about the episodes hearing other posters excellent insights! One of the most awesome scenes in a very awesome movie. Still makes me mad that it didn't win Best Picture.
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Post by Nickim on Dec 24, 2004 9:34:42 GMT -5
*laughing* Hmmm. There seem to be some backhanded compliments there somewhere. Seriously, thank you both. The first time I saw NFA, one of the things I thought (among my overall feelings of sadness and disappointment) was that the rainy alley scene at the end links to moments of birth/rebirth in AtS and BtVS. The first example that sprang to mind was Connor’s arrival in the Angelverse. I don’t think we have to worry about our people. They’ll be fine. Merry Christmas! Very cool idea about the rain at the end of NFA. But, I've always thought they came out of it okay. Maybe TPTB put them in a protective bubble.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Dec 27, 2004 19:56:49 GMT -5
Hells Belles comes to mind when Xander walks out of the wedding into the rain. I thought about that too. But does the rain really symbolize birth/rebirth there? It seems like the rain in that episode was more about how it's always raining when bad things happen.
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Post by Lola m on Dec 27, 2004 22:15:53 GMT -5
I thought about that too. But does the rain really symbolize birth/rebirth there? It seems like the rain in that episode was more about how it's always raining when bad things happen. I can see this, but I can also see a birth/rebirth kind of vibe to Xander and Anya's story, too. Not in the actual episode of Hell's Bells itself, but later eps show that the decision not to marry was ultimately a rebirth for each of them. Anya needed to learn what and who she really wanted to be, on her own, separate from whatever Xander or Halfrek or D'Hoffryn or anyone else thought. And Xander needed to look at his own life and see that it was really up to him to either become like his father or choose a different path. Lola
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Post by Queen E on Mar 3, 2005 18:32:00 GMT -5
I can see this, but I can also see a birth/rebirth kind of vibe to Xander and Anya's story, too. Not in the actual episode of Hell's Bells itself, but later eps show that the decision not to marry was ultimately a rebirth for each of them. Anya needed to learn what and who she really wanted to be, on her own, separate from whatever Xander or Halfrek or D'Hoffryn or anyone else thought. And Xander needed to look at his own life and see that it was really up to him to either become like his father or choose a different path. Lola Nicely observed! (Sorry 'bout the 3 MONTH delay in responding) And the funny thing about Hell's Bells is that the rain was that strange sunshine/rain rain, lending an air of the positive to this particularly painful baptism.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Mar 4, 2005 0:31:19 GMT -5
Nicely observed! (Sorry 'bout the 3 MONTH delay in responding) And the funny thing about Hell's Bells is that the rain was that strange sunshine/rain rain, lending an air of the positive to this particularly painful baptism. Heh. That's a great explanation for something that appears to be due to filming conditions. (according to the DVD commentary, it was like the sunniest day of the year, and despite all their efforts they couldn't make it look dark and stormy) I noticed two episodes, <i>Superstar</i> and <i>Disharmony</i>, where it's raining but the rain doesn't appear to be symbolic, but is probably just due to filming conditions (the rain isn't thematically emphasized in either episode). Unless anyone wants to take a crack at what the rain means in these episodes.
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