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Post by William the Bloody on Oct 1, 2004 9:17:31 GMT -5
Let the discussion begin!
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Post by Onjel on Oct 1, 2004 13:15:59 GMT -5
For any technopagans out there, I can't read Spring's analysis of Crush. The URL is not found on the server. Is it me or something else?
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Post by Karen on Oct 1, 2004 13:36:31 GMT -5
For any technopagans out there, I can't read Spring's analysis of Crush. The URL is not found on the server. Is it me or something else? www.soulfulspike.com/CrushReview-Rev1.htmHere's the link, Onjel. I'm sure Vlad will fix it later.
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Post by Karen on Oct 1, 2004 14:03:00 GMT -5
I couldn't wait for you to finish this one, Spring! You didn't disappoint. There is so much going on here. I'm going to take a tiny slice to savor for a moment. This is one of my all-time favorite scenes of Buffy. I always saw it as the actual "spark" that ignited Spike's smoldering (and probably unbeknowst to him?) desire for Buffy. I love that. In the immortal words of an actor turned governor. "I'll be back." I'd love to discuss the id and unconciousness as it pertains to Buffy/Angel/Spike. Now, I just have to find the time to do that! Good stuff, Spring.
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 1, 2004 14:59:04 GMT -5
I couldn't wait for you to finish this one, Spring! You didn't disappoint. Thank you! And thank you for providing Onjel the link to the review, above. I'm sure Vlad will have it fixed up soon, but in the meantime, it is nice to have it here in this thread. Yes - I think that"Buffy" made the first truly overt sexual move between Spike and Buffy (from Spike's perspective.) And I think "Buffy's" comments, about eyes rolling back etc, started to tease Spike's unconscious desires to the surface. He starts behaving differently toward Buffy after that, and it all culminates in his Out of My Mind conscious realization (with his dreams acting as a conduit from his unconscious to his conscious mind) that he's in love with Buffy. Please do come back. I'd love to discuss the "unconscious" stuff going on in this ep. The reference to Olaf, all the references to sleep and dreams, and Spike unconscious during the day, Buffy unconscious during the night, and that line: "The only chance you had with me was when I was unconscious." Yep.
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Post by Queen E on Oct 1, 2004 15:15:23 GMT -5
Thank you! And thank you for providing Onjel the link to the review, above. I'm sure Vlad will have it fixed up soon, but in the meantime, it is nice to have it here in this thread. Yes - I think that"Buffy" made the first truly overt sexual move between Spike and Buffy (from Spike's perspective.) And I think "Buffy's" comments, about eyes rolling back etc, started to tease Spike's unconscious desires to the surface. He starts behaving differently toward Buffy after that, and it all culminates in his Out of My Mind conscious realization (with his dreams acting as a conduit from his unconscious to his conscious mind) that he's in love with Buffy. Please do come back. I'd love to discuss the "unconscious" stuff going on in this ep. The reference to Olaf, all the references to sleep and dreams, and Spike unconscious during the day, Buffy unconscious during the night, and that line: "The only chance you had with me was when I was unconscious." Yep. Absolutely brilliant work, Spring! I am consistently amazed and always educated by your analyses: they make me want to be a better reviewer. My Freudian/Jungian knowledge is fairly limited, but the references to light/dark, day/night, and conscious/unconscious, were inspired. You've really pinpointed where the subtext is inexorably moving into text between Buffy and Spike, as well as how words are increasingly becoming the thing that any character can trust the least. Thanks for the great work!
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 1, 2004 16:24:37 GMT -5
Absolutely brilliant work, Spring! I am consistently amazed and always educated by your analyses: they make me want to be a better reviewer. Oh! What a nice compliment. Thanks, Erin. I'm no Freud/Jung expert myself. Mostly, you only have to be human to understand what I'm writing about, I think. I try not to obscure the analysis with lots of jargon - and everyone has experienced, and/or noted when others experience, the effect of unconscious desires. Yes, I like your point about words becoming what the characters can trust the least. Though - well, it's a very complex picture isn't it. But simple too. Ah, I love the Jossverse. And I miss it.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Oct 1, 2004 17:06:01 GMT -5
Great job on the analysis Spring! There is so much going on in this episode that you could spend hours and hours thinking about it. It's one of my favorites.
What's especially intriguing to me is that it's less and less clear by what standards he should be judged. If he's merely a neutered animal (vampire, soulless thing), then one should pat him on the head when he's good (for whatever reason) and shake their finger at him when he's bad. Buffy took psych and apparently did pretty well when she applied herself, so it should be no surprise to her that if Spike has a behavior modification chip in his head, he should be conditioned to, well, modify his behavior. If he's a "serial prisoner in prison," then anything less than good guy behavior is unacceptable. If he's truly a "serial killer in prison," well its extremely rare, but not completely unheard of in real life for prisoners to be inspired to genuinely reform and eventually be released.
We as the audience too are encouraged to question how we should judge Spike throughout the entire series; the characters, save Buffy, I believe, are pretty consistent in how they treat him and their various motivations for doing so are pretty clear (and they treat him more or less the way they would treat Angel). That Buffy is by no means consistent in her treatment of him is a strong indicator to me that she is struggling with her own feelings.
I like what you said about Angel also being a "serial killer in prison." The Chip/Soul debate intrigues me because its not so simple as "are they the same thing or not," but rather "in what way are they similar and different." Both the chip and the soul cause a bad feelings (physical and psychological, respectively) when hurting others. The chip's definitely not the same thing as a soul, no remorse or ability to discern right and wrong without external validation. But Spike's existed for a hundred years or so causing murder and mayhem, and post chip, after a period of uneasy interaction, now helps Buffy periodically when she ask for it and is tolerated more or less by the gang...so he's not at all like Angel, right? Right?
His soulless inability to "not know when to stop" that you point out becomes a pretty consistent pattern until the end of season 6. It always puts me in the mind of his rehearsing the apology with the Buffykin in "Triangle;" because he really doesn't know innately right from wrong, he has to sound out every word and action to see if it jives with what he's observed from the Buffy and the Scoobies. I imagine he rehearsed the first part of his speech in the crypt scene, before the ranting and the death threats. If he runs out of script, inevitably Buffy gets pissed off or hurt. But despite all his foul-ups, his efforts at developing even a limited amount of self control truly are commendable. And I always find it interesting that in "Entropy" we see that Xander has rehearsed his apology to Anya; he too eventually runs out of script and says something like, "I didn't practice this part." So maybe its not completely a soulless being problem; maybe its a guy problem or a people problem, just amplified several hundred times in Spike's case? Maybe, maybe not. (By what standards should he be judged? hmm...)
I like what you said about how Spike sleeps during the day; Buffy sleeps at night. I had always wondered about Spike's sleeping patterns, particularly in Season 6; he seemed to be up at all hours and asleep a night a couple times. I had started to wonder about exactly how much sleep vampires actually need. But maybe its this night/day metaphor playing itself out.
Buffy's comment about how beating up Spike was "like third base" always struck me as interesting as well. Neither Joyce nor Willow commented on it, but every time I watch that scene, I always think, "umm...Buffy, if beating up Spike is like third base, why do _you_ beat him up alot?" Then though she sent a very clear message and walked out on him at the end of their "date," she felt uncertain enough that she decided to go and talk to him again. Instead she starts snooping around his crypt, invading his privacy, despite the fact that she gets rightfully pissed off for him doing the same to her. (This in the very episode when she protects her privacy by uninviting him from her house no less.)
Incidentally, I always wondered whether she ever got all that stuff from him before she blew up the crypt in "As You Were."
Another thing that struck me was Buffys comment about the Hunchback of Notre Dame test and how since the test was tomorrow she didn't "have to have an opinion till then." She discusses Spike's crush first with Xander, who despite his ability to "see things" is hardly unbiased when it comes to morally ambiguous vampires, then seems to adopt his opinion that "its funnier if its true" for the rest of the episode, despite the fact that Willow, Joyce, and Spike tell her to take it seriously, rather than analyze the text (or subtext, heh) and come up with her own opinion. Incidentally, I've never read this book, so I'm wondering if the story is really as cut and dry as Tara makes it sound.
It's also intriguing to me what exactly inspired Buffy to uninvite him. She's caught him lurking outside her house once and in her house twice, when theoretically in her mind she believed that he still hated her and would kill her if only he had the chance. In this episode he tries to socialize with her and socializes with Dawn and Joyce. She asks Willow to univite him _before_ the whole crypt scene debacle. That she makes the decision when she does seems to indicate that she feels threatened most of all by Spike lounging comfortably in her kitchen with her family and being nice to her. What kind of message does this send? "Love is dangerous, don't want any of that in my house, unh unh, no way."
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 1, 2004 17:23:21 GMT -5
Ehills, your maiden post here is marvelous in thinking and expression. I'm sure more than I hope you come often and contribute. If you care to, join us on the "Main" thread and add to the freewheeling, occasionally on-topic chat that goes on there.
Spring, I find this one of the finest, clearest, and most discursive elucidations you've done to date...and about an episode that surely is a top favorite on most of our lists.
Clueless Buffy! Clueless Spike! Exploding all over one another and not a clue what to do about it because Buffy's denial won't survive her own attraction, and Spike's aggression won't survive his deep and true concern for helping/pleasing the object of his lust affection.
This is an extremely complex episode with so much unsaid, and you unwind and present it perfecly. Kudos and thanks!
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 1, 2004 18:16:44 GMT -5
Great job on the analysis Spring! There is so much going on in this episode that you could spend hours and hours thinking about it. It's one of my favorites. Thanks so much for taking the time to provide the positive feedback, ehills. I really appreciate it. Agreed all around! No one but Buffy regards Spike and Angel as totally different - "Angel was good!" Who but Buffy would say that, that way? Not even Angel. I thought the placement of this ep - right when over on AtS, Angel's goodness is not at all clear - was very deliberate and meant to spotlight Buffy's "daylight only" view of Angel. Yes - not knowing when to stop . . . that is a problem that a soul doesn't solve. A soul just makes it possible . . . it gives you the brakes, you still have to want to use them and decide to use them and take the time to learn how to use them, etc. I think the ultimate moment of "not knowing when to stop" happens with the attempted rape. Hmmm. Spike's sleeping patterns change more and more to match the company he is keeping, and it does fit the metaphor . . . I mean, he come closer and closer to "being conscious in the daytime" - closer and closer to the moment after the attempted rape when it gets through to him that there IS something to what Buffy is saying about their relationship not representing true love - and that something has to change. Yes, exactly. Buffy gives no thought to her own actions and motivations. Spike makes it all about Buffy; Buffy makes it all about Spike. Neither one is anywhere near realizing their motivations are all their own, and internal. Interesting points, one and all. What struck me about Xander was how different his reaction was to Spike than to Angel - can you imagine Xander laughing if he found out Angel was seriously sniffing around Buffy again? It really speaks to Xander's view of the situation - he isn't at all able to see that Buffy has any attraction to Spike. Well - I really think the "uninvite" mirrored when she uninvited Angel, and she (and Joyce and Willow) are reacting with alarm in part because of what happened when Angel lost his soul. I do agree that Buffy was disturbed and threatened by Spike getting close to her family - the whole thing is just so confusing for Buffy, in so many ways. Interesting you said "Love is dangerous." Buffy expresses this sentiment exactly in the next ep, in regard to April the robot, so I think you are on to something there. Please post again, ehills. Love your thoughts on all this. And feel free to post on some of the older analyses if you get inspired.
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 1, 2004 18:19:14 GMT -5
Ehills, your maiden post here is marvelous in thinking and expression. I'm sure more than I hope you come often and contribute. If you care to, join us on the "Main" thread and add to the freewheeling, occasionally on-topic chat that goes on there. Spring, I find this one of the finest, clearest, and most discursive elucidations you've done to date...and about an episode that surely is a top favorite on most of our lists. Clueless Buffy! Clueless Spike! Exploding all over one another and not a clue what to do about it because Buffy's denial won't survive her own attraction, and Spike's aggression won't survive his deep and true concern for helping/pleasing the object of his lust affection. This is an extremely complex episode with so much unsaid, and you unwind and present it perfecly. Kudos and thanks! Thanks a lot for the feedback, Nan. Buffy & Spike - their relationship is truly like no other. In the end, they change each other forever, and for the better.
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Post by Nickim on Oct 1, 2004 18:39:07 GMT -5
Spring, I can tell you spent a LOT of time on this one. It's your best ever. "The only chance you had with me was when I was unconscious."
I need to re-read and take some notes, but just wanted to say "Brava"
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Post by Nickim on Oct 1, 2004 18:41:57 GMT -5
Buffy's comment about how beating up Spike was "like third base" always struck me as interesting as well. Neither Joyce nor Willow commented on it, but every time I watch that scene, I always think, "umm...Buffy, if beating up Spike is like third base, why do _you_ beat him up alot?" Then though she sent a very clear message and walked out on him at the end of their "date," she felt uncertain enough that she decided to go and talk to him again. Instead she starts snooping around his crypt, invading his privacy, despite the fact that she gets rightfully pissed off for him doing the same to her. (This in the very episode when she protects her privacy by uninviting him from her house no less.) It's also intriguing to me what exactly inspired Buffy to uninvite him. She's caught him lurking outside her house once and in her house twice, when theoretically in her mind she believed that he still hated her and would kill her if only he had the chance. In this episode he tries to socialize with her and socializes with Dawn and Joyce. She asks Willow to univite him _before_ the whole crypt scene debacle. That she makes the decision when she does seems to indicate that she feels threatened most of all by Spike lounging comfortably in her kitchen with her family and being nice to her. What kind of message does this send? "Love is dangerous, don't want any of that in my house, unh unh, no way." Ehills, I loved all of your comments, but especially the sections I quoted. Buffy doesn't want the rules to apply to her.
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 1, 2004 20:52:15 GMT -5
Spring, I can tell you spent a LOT of time on this one. It's your best ever. "The only chance you had with me was when I was unconscious." I need to re-read and take some notes, but just wanted to say "Brava" Thanks so much for the feedback, Nicki - I was kind of nervous about this one. It is such a fave for us Spike-fans, and it is the longest one I've ever written - and talk about not knowing "when to stop," I had to make myself stop. I was going to add a part about the set up of the scene when Dru & Buffy are chained up . . . the way it's shot, the way the "two sides of Spike" fight each other, with Buffy (light side) chained up, while Spike is distracted fighting with the "actual girlfriend" . . . and the way Dru's voice (dark side) literally fades away, and all the references to listening to hearing and deciding what voices we listen to . . . I had started this part exploring the "Angel" comparison in more detail . . . ANYHOW - do come back and add your own thoughts if you have anything you want to share after you re-read and make some notes. I love to read how others expand on the analyses.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Oct 1, 2004 21:52:42 GMT -5
Agreed. The crypt scene very much forshadows the attempted rape.
I do agree the the univite mirrors when she uninvited Angel, except that univiting Angel occurred to her in direct response to him being in her house leaving pictures and didn't appear to love her at all. Univiting Spike was directly in response to him trying to be nice, more or less successfully, and revealing that he was in love with her. It's easy to forget that in the way that the episode is constructed. After the times when she caught him in her house while she "thought" he hated her, she did nothing. Of course, she was distracted each time, but she appeared to take it as out of sight, out of mind sort of thing and not something of extreme importance. So maybe thats more of a contrast than a comparison. Or something.
Of course the crypt scene debacle only proved that Buffy was justified in her decision (again forshadowy of the AR scene.)
That comment that Buffy makes when she's talking to Warren always jumps out at me too.
Thanks I will.
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