Crush Discussion

[Pet]

While your analysis is very indepth, I thank your for that. But I think the crux if the matter is the prophetic dream which Spike had. He knew it was prophetic when he said "Oh no, pleaseGOD no! (Funny he calls on God.) He realized this was confirmed to prove his love. Did you see his face when he was supposed to have ate the girl Drusilla killed for him? He was exibihting a conscience but conflicted with convincing Drusilla that he was still a "Bad oDog". She is an evil bitch. It didn't matter, he loved Buffy. And he could not not love Buffy because of his prophect dream. The "Powers that Whatsit" were involved. Now, his sire is prone to these kind of dreams so something carried over thourgh the line of Aurelies. We see Spike's uncanny ability of insight into people's intentions, not mind reading, but reading people from their actions, very perceptive. He's the bomb. Okay, I see all the other side and and think there are many valid points , but crush was a supernatural happening. Isn't it funny how Buffy let Spike follow her all the way home making his case. Ah Love!

[SpringSummers]

pet said:

While your analysis is very indepth, I thank your for that. But I think the crux if the matter is the prophetic dream which Spike had. He knew it was prophetic when he said "Oh no, pleaseGOD no! (Funny he calls on God.) He realized this was confirmed to prove his love. Did you see his face when he was supposed to have ate the girl Drusilla killed for him? He was exibihting a conscience but conflicted with convincing Drusilla that he was still a "Bad oDog". She is an evil bitch. It didn't matter, he loved Buffy. And he could not not love Buffy because of his prophect dream. The "Powers that Whatsit" were involved. Now, his sire is prone to these kind of dreams so something carried over thourgh the line of Aurelies. We see Spike's uncanny ability of insight into people's intentions, not mind reading, but reading people from their actions, very perceptive. He's the bomb. Okay, I see all the other side and and think there are many valid points , but crush was a supernatural happening. Isn't it funny how Buffy let Spike follow her all the way home making his case. Ah Love!

Glad you enjoyed the analysis, Pet.

You're never gonna find "Aurelius" theories in my analysis. I don't buy into the idea that the Order of Aurelius has anything to do with bloodline, or that being of the Master's bloodline carries any significance. I know a lot of people do think this, and that is fine, but you won't see that theory in any of my analyses.

I think of Spike's dream in Out of my Mind as being the moment when Spike consciously realizes, internally, that he is in love with Buffy. And I think of Crush as the episode where he clearly and consciously expresses that internal realization, externally (i.e., to others besides himself) for the first time.

I think it all started in School Hard, really - for both of them, and gets cemented in Becoming II.

As Spike says about Dru's upset, in Lovers Walk: "It was that truce with Buffy that did it." No kidding. It takes Spike until Out of my Mind to acknowledge his attraction to Buffy, and it takes Buffy until As You Were to consciously admit her attraction, and until Chosen to speak of her love for him.

[Onjel]

springsummers said:

pet said:

While your analysis is very indepth, I thank your for that. But I think the crux if the matter is the prophetic dream which Spike had. He knew it was prophetic when he said "Oh no, pleaseGOD no! (Funny he calls on God.) He realized this was confirmed to prove his love. Did you see his face when he was supposed to have ate the girl Drusilla killed for him? He was exibihting a conscience but conflicted with convincing Drusilla that he was still a "Bad oDog". She is an evil bitch. It didn't matter, he loved Buffy. And he could not not love Buffy because of his prophect dream. The "Powers that Whatsit" were involved. Now, his sire is prone to these kind of dreams so something carried over thourgh the line of Aurelies. We see Spike's uncanny ability of insight into people's intentions, not mind reading, but reading people from their actions, very perceptive. He's the bomb. Okay, I see all the other side and and think there are many valid points , but crush was a supernatural happening. Isn't it funny how Buffy let Spike follow her all the way home making his case. Ah Love!

Glad you enjoyed the analysis, Pet.

You're never gonna find "Aurelius" theories in my analysis. I don't buy into the idea that the Order of Aurelius has anything to do with bloodline, or that being of the Master's bloodline carries any significance. I know a lot of people do think this, and that is fine, but you won't see that theory in any of my analyses.

I think of Spike's dream in Out of my Mind as being the moment when Spike consciously realizes, internally, that he is in love with Buffy. And I think of Crush as the episode where he clearly and consciously expresses that internal realization, externally (i.e., to others besides himself) for the first time.

I think it all started in School Hard, really - for both of them, and gets cemented in Becoming II.

As Spike says about Dru's upset, in Lovers Walk: "It was that truce with Buffy that did it." No kidding. It takes Spike until Out of my Mind to acknowledge his attraction to Buffy, and it takes Buffy until As You Were to consciously admit her attraction, and until Chosen to speak of her love for him.

#clap# Yes! ;D

[stage1]

I just wanted post on the episode, the poster on goggle groups alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer who also recently reviewed all BTVS episode recently with an unbiased fresh pair of eyes. In crush episode a poster references slayage tv

Slayage.tv make nice analysis of Marsters acting in Bronze scene being offered the lifeless girl Dru has offered him.

"

'This dissolving immorality is strikingly present, in the performance
alone, in the scene in "Crush" (5014), when a chipped Spike is
offered a newly killed girl to drink by Drusilla. This acting of
Spike's indecision and hesitancy is quintessential Marsters. There is
no dialogue. Attention is drawn away from the lifeless body in
Spike's arms as the camera focuses on Spike's face and we are held
in suspense, waiting for Spike's decision to drink or not. There is
no rush to drink as Marsters has Spike look back at Drusilla, trying to
decide if he can trust her, trust himself, trust any decision at all?
We do not know; it is all possible. Spike's chest rises and falls as
the actor breathes more rapidly, there is tremor in his face, his gaze
intent. Then, as if mustering all his willpower, Spike decides as the
actor pauses and then lunges, and Spike brutally drinks from the dead
body. Bert States, commenting on the phenomenology of acting in
theatrical production, points out the sense in which there is a
"narrator hiding in the actor" in the way in which, as he performs, he
can shift between self-expressive and representational modes, as well
as take on a collaborative mode with the audience. The utility of
looking at performance this way, as States says, is that it allows for
audience selectivity:


In other words, it is not a simple matter of following the "intention"
of the speaker but of abandoning one's senses to the shifting appeals
of the speech (and the actor's speech, of course, should be
understood to include gesture, presence, and all the aspects of his
performance of the role). (24)


This view also allows us more awareness of the way an actor is both
playing and representing the character. While on a television screen
and cinema, unlike the theatre, the audience's sense of both the
actor and the character are framed by editing, lighting, music etc, it
is still true that the actor himself can draw audience attention to the
illusive aspects of the art and create a space in which he himself can
comment on the action independent of other aspects of his speech or the
plot. In this dialogue free action in the Bronze, the subtlety of
Marsters' portrayal makes us aware of the process of the acting
itself and of the effect it has on representation, of the techniques
that create the performance and extend what is written, of the elements
in Marsters' performance that keep the viewer suspended, momentarily, between will he or won't he drink from the girl?'

[SpringSummers]

stage1 said:

I just wanted post on the episode, the poster on goggle groups alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer who also recently reviewed all BTVS episode recently with an unbiased fresh pair of eyes. In crush episode a poster references slayage tv

Slayage.tv make nice analysis of Marsters acting in Bronze scene being offered the lifeless girl Dru has offered him.

"

'This dissolving immorality is strikingly present, in the performance
alone, in the scene in "Crush" (5014), when a chipped Spike is
offered a newly killed girl to drink by Drusilla. This acting of
Spike's indecision and hesitancy is quintessential Marsters. There is
no dialogue. Attention is drawn away from the lifeless body in
Spike's arms as the camera focuses on Spike's face and we are held
in suspense, waiting for Spike's decision to drink or not. There is
no rush to drink as Marsters has Spike look back at Drusilla, trying to
decide if he can trust her, trust himself, trust any decision at all?
We do not know; it is all possible. Spike's chest rises and falls as
the actor breathes more rapidly, there is tremor in his face, his gaze
intent. Then, as if mustering all his willpower, Spike decides as the
actor pauses and then lunges, and Spike brutally drinks from the dead
body. Bert States, commenting on the phenomenology of acting in
theatrical production, points out the sense in which there is a
"narrator hiding in the actor" in the way in which, as he performs, he
can shift between self-expressive and representational modes, as well
as take on a collaborative mode with the audience. The utility of
looking at performance this way, as States says, is that it allows for
audience selectivity:


In other words, it is not a simple matter of following the "intention"
of the speaker but of abandoning one's senses to the shifting appeals
of the speech (and the actor's speech, of course, should be
understood to include gesture, presence, and all the aspects of his
performance of the role). (24)


This view also allows us more awareness of the way an actor is both
playing and representing the character. While on a television screen
and cinema, unlike the theatre, the audience's sense of both the
actor and the character are framed by editing, lighting, music etc, it
is still true that the actor himself can draw audience attention to the
illusive aspects of the art and create a space in which he himself can
comment on the action independent of other aspects of his speech or the
plot. In this dialogue free action in the Bronze, the subtlety of
Marsters' portrayal makes us aware of the process of the acting
itself and of the effect it has on representation, of the techniques
that create the performance and extend what is written, of the elements
in Marsters' performance that keep the viewer suspended, momentarily, between will he or won't he drink from the girl?'

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Crush definitely shows off James' acting talent. He's amazing in it, creating this very believable, very complex character - you wanna slap Spike, you wanna comfort him - he's evil and cruel, yet he's vulnerable and in-love - it's quite an accomplishment, pulling all that off, in one ep, in a very cohesive performance.

[williamtheb]

Hi Spring!

Just a quick thought about Crush that occurred to me the other day. In addition to the parallels you draw between how Buffy treats Angel and Spike in her mind, it's really amazing how closely this episode parallels "Angel" the episode, which is also about Angel's female sire and romantic rival for Buffy's affection coming back. But despite Angel's soulfulness, he undergoes many of the same steps. Darla mocks Angel's domesticated state and doesn't believe he can control herself, just as Dru does with Spike. Darla attacks Joyce and incapacitates her so that Angel can feed on her (if he wants) without having to deal with the (emotional) pain he would have by attacking her himself -- just as Dru does by killing the girl in the Bronze so that Spike can avoid the physical pain that he would undergo if her hurt her himself. "Angel" is the episode where Buffy invites Angel into her home; "Crush" is the episode where Buffy disinvites Spike from her home.

There is a sudden intrusion of modern technology into the story -- Darla's gun, and Spike's cattle prod. (In a way, Darla and Spike, the two blondes, also feel much more, to me, of the 'now' than their counterparts, Angel and Dru respectively. It's interesting that in this moment the parallel is Darla to Spike, rather than Darla to Dru and Angel to Spike as it is the rest of the way.)

And most of all -- Spike's way of proving he can be good, to Buffy is exactly the same as Angel's! He offers to stake his sire, which is the thing Angel did to set himself definitively on the side of the angels. And that gesture, which touched Buffy so in season 1, is disgusting or minor to her now.

That makes it all the more interesting that Buffy insists on "Angel is good," and that Buffy refers to him as Angel while Dru refers to him as Angelus -- and indeed that Buffy rejects the idea that Angel and Spike are at all alike. Because really -- they are following much of the same script. But Angel does it in a way that seems, from a Buffy POV, to be spontaneous and genuine, and Spike's theatrical offer to stake Drusilla feels false. But it is, I think, just as calculated, and just as disturbing, even though Buffy didn't see it that way. And Angel's soul didn't keep him from pausing for a moment with Joyce's body, staring down at the neck of the woman he wants to love. It's interesting that Angel, in season 1 of Buffy, and Spike, at this point, are actually pretty close to the same point -- which is appropriate, I suppose, since both Angel and Spike are both a little less than a year away from consummating their respective relationships with Buffy (though not until after Buffy dies!). And yep -- Buffy doesn't admit, or refuses to admit, the similarity between the two, because it's impossible to view Angel as darkly as she, well, should.

[SpringSummers]

Feb 7, 2012 11:23:05 GMT -5 williamtheb said:

Hi Spring!

Just a quick thought about Crush that occurred to me the other day. In addition to the parallels you draw between how Buffy treats Angel and Spike in her mind, it's really amazing how closely this episode parallels "Angel" the episode, which is also about Angel's female sire and romantic rival for Buffy's affection coming back.

Oh, great catch!

But despite Angel's soulfulness, he undergoes many of the same steps. Darla mocks Angel's domesticated state and doesn't believe he can control herself, just as Dru does with Spike. Darla attacks Joyce and incapacitates her so that Angel can feed on her (if he wants) without having to deal with the (emotional) pain he would have by attacking her himself -- just as Dru does by killing the girl in the Bronze so that Spike can avoid the physical pain that he would undergo if her hurt her himself. "Angel" is the episode where Buffy invites Angel into her home; "Crush" is the episode where Buffy disinvites Spike from her home.

Yes. Makes perfect sense for the ep to have such parallels, and "equal but opposite" reactions from Buffy. Fits in well with the "what she allows in her conscious mind" theme.

There is a sudden intrusion of modern technology into the story -- Darla's gun, and Spike's cattle prod. (In a way, Darla and Spike, the two blondes, also feel much more, to me, of the 'now' than their counterparts, Angel and Dru respectively. It's interesting that in this moment the parallel is Darla to Spike, rather than Darla to Dru and Angel to Spike as it is the rest of the way.)

Yes, I can see where Spike parallels to Darla in some ways, and Buffy to Angel. Both blondies are trying to get through to, in their views (if I may paraphrase Faith), two "stuck-up tight-asses with no sense of fun."

The way Spike and Darla see it, Buffy and Angel won't own up to their deepest, darkest desires.

And most of all -- Spike's way of proving he can be good, to Buffy is exactly the same as Angel's! He offers to stake his sire, which is the thing Angel did to set himself definitively on the side of the angels. And that gesture, which touched Buffy so in season 1, is disgusting or minor to her now.

That makes it all the more interesting that Buffy insists on "Angel is good," and that Buffy refers to him as Angel while Dru refers to him as Angelus -- and indeed that Buffy rejects the idea that Angel and Spike are at all alike. Because really -- they are following much of the same script. But Angel does it in a way that seems, from a Buffy POV, to be spontaneous and genuine, and Spike's theatrical offer to stake Drusilla feels false. But it is, I think, just as calculated, and just as disturbing, even though Buffy didn't see it that way. And Angel's soul didn't keep him from pausing for a moment with Joyce's body, staring down at the neck of the woman he wants to love. It's interesting that Angel, in season 1 of Buffy, and Spike, at this point, are actually pretty close to the same point -- which is appropriate, I suppose, since both Angel and Spike are both a little less than a year away from consummating their respective relationships with Buffy (though not until after Buffy dies!). And yep -- Buffy doesn't admit, or refuses to admit, the similarity between the two, because it's impossible to view Angel as darkly as she, well, should.

Agree with all you say, here. Well thought out - so glad you added these thoughts here. I think they support my analysis as well as stand on their own as terrific insights.

I remember thinking that the ep "Angel" was echoed again in "Beneath You." Both feature the "soul reveal" from her vampire loves. Again, Buffy's reaction is very "equal but opposite." I haven't seen this for awhile, but I remember noticing how Buffy "drops her stake" for Angel, while she "picks up her stake" for Spike.

Well, if I ever get around to Season 7 , I will look at that more in depth. Are you and your friend maggie going to continue some analyses? I check over there every once in a while, and it looks like she's on hiatus.

I finally retired from work, but I am foster parenting two girls (15 and 12) so it is still a challenge to figure out how to get back to the analyses. I am hoping that by summer, I'll be into a routine that can included them.

Great to hear from you!

[williamtheb]

Hi Spring! I love the observation about Angel and Beneath You, and picking up the stake vs. dropping the stake. I really like the way this show is structured -- the early eps are find episodes on their own, but they become so much richer as a result of what comes afterwards, and the later episodes are just mind-blowing.

I hadn't thought deeply about what the Spike/Darla parallel might mean -- but I think you're right, the way they try to prove something to Buffy and Angel respectively. And Darla continues to play the same role for Angel in a lot of ways on his own series, that Spike does for Buffy.

Foster parenting! That sounds like fun and, uh, challenging.

Maggie and I (and her brother) are going to get back to them at some point. (Earshot is written out, though not posted.) We're hoping to maybe get back to things in April or May -- but time will tell!