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Post by Queen E on Mar 18, 2005 23:45:25 GMT -5
Say goodbye to season 1 with a nice lengthy post.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Mar 21, 2005 23:09:32 GMT -5
I comment more when I have an opportunity to rewatch the episode, but I just wanted to say, that was a brilliant analysis. Really, just brilliant. Brava!
On to season 2!
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Post by Queen E on Mar 22, 2005 11:39:25 GMT -5
I comment more when I have an opportunity to rewatch the episode, but I just wanted to say, that was a brilliant analysis. Really, just brilliant. Brava! On to season 2! Oh, wow, thank you! I look forward to hearing your thoughts!
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Post by Riff on Mar 23, 2005 13:28:05 GMT -5
Now come on, Erin, admit it. You know this review is special, don’t you? Yes you do! ;D I love all kinds of things about this Angelphile, but probably my favourite is the fact that it plugs into the rest of AtS and your whole Angelphile series so closely. Compared to much of what we have seen in the apocalyptic season finales of the Jossverse, this is a relatively understated finale that concentrates more or less entirely on character rather than events, something like the finale of BtVS Season 4. You understand this perfectly, pointing out the shifts in fate and character that we see in To Shanshu in LA. This is a brilliant review. The question for me is whether the Shanshu can really be thought of as a reward, or if it reflects something more karmic: fortune rebounding on the doer of good deeds not as a reward, but simply as the result of the mechanisms of the universe. The fact that it is a prophecy makes me lean away from the notion that the Shanshu is a prize of some kind. You hit the nail on the head with idea of balance and how it links to the Shanshu, and this makes me suspect even more that the fulfilment of the prophecy would be a cosmic balancing act, rather than simple reward for Angel. As you point out, a kind of balance has been set up by the end the ep, with people in key positions in the scheme. It isn’t really an equilibrium, however, and will all come crashing down, the ominous warning of Yeats’s “The Second Coming” that you allude to in your title for this (great!) review. I’ve thought before that Vocah unmasked and Jasmine’s true face are quite similar. I wonder if that means anything? In AtS in particular, events can be seen in a causal chain. Some of those links are bigger than others, and Darla’s return is one of those. I have to say that Cordelia must have gained a gift for understatement if her liaisons with Connor are being foreshadowed with an adjective as mild as “torrid”. This ep is almost as important for Cordy as it is for Angel. It could even be considered more important. Often in the Jossverse an event will happen to a character that suddenly accelerates his or her development. Traits that have previously been growing slowly are magnified rapidly: Buffy’s return from heaven, Spike’s ensoulment, Willow losing Tara, Wes taking Connor, and so on. This episode marks the big moment for Cordy, IMO, creating a clear distinction between the Cordelias of BtVS and AtS. Or as you more adroitly put it: “She no longer belongs (even if she still occasionally desires to) in the world she grew up in. By the horrifying, forced empathy Vocah inflicts on her, the Gang’s shared mission no longer needs to be explained to her; she gets it.” Eetah! I have dimly thought before that the Hyperion signifies a certain degree of confusion and complexity coming into the series. Just the sheer space of it is psychologically very different to the pulp private investigator set up of the old AI offices. The move to the Hyperion certainly coincides with the darkness that besets Angel for much of Season Two and in which some of the certainties of Season 1, this episode, and Angel’s character in general are undermined. *smiling widely* What a finale to your review of the season finale! You must take a bow. Episode titles are of crucial importance in the Jossverse, often acting as a code to tell us what an episode was really about. Your frankly dazzling revelation about the title of this ep, your own piece of translation to add to those in the episode itself, is a wonderful culmination of a wonderful review, and really carries the sense of wrapping up things for Season 1. Also, as you imply, it reveals a much darker side to the whole Shanshu issue. The Shanshu goes on to be questioned in Season 2, I feel, as part of Angel’s “epiphany”, and this ultimately leads to a kind of defiant despair that begins positively with the Humanistic “If nothing that we do matters, than all that matters is what we do;” and, I think, mutates into Angel’s (slightly contradictory) acknowledgement that they are all in a machine but can for a moment show the Senior Partners that they free agents, at the end of Season 5. The idea in Epiphany that “the smallest act of kindness – is the greatest thing in the world” seems to become obscured in the desire to have a pseudo victory. Ironically, Angel ultimately both rejects and embraces the idea of a big picture. IMO, this whole thematic movement, which is first suggested by some of Doyle’s comments in City of Angels, truly begins with the Shanshu. Things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world...
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Post by Queen E on Mar 24, 2005 12:10:29 GMT -5
Now come on, Erin, admit it. You know this review is special, don’t you? Yes you do! ;D Is it? It was so hard to write this one, I no longer have any idea! One wonders, since they were written and aired so close together, if that was the mindframe of Joss and Co; more character driven, rather than action driven. And it really does represent a shift in the Angelverse; going back to watch these early eps reminds me how much it changed from "one soul at a time" to these wide arcs of story and character. True that; and it fits in nicely again with "I Will Remember You"; ie, the removal of a warrior for the side of good. Ooh, thought! Removal is maybe the best solution of all for Angel, like the scene in "Soul Purpose" of Angel being "put out to pasture." Angel shanshuing would remove him from the fight and therefore neither side could claim such a strong force; which would be a good, in some respects. Definitely. It's a "breath" between fights, if you will. "The Second Coming" works on more than one level for this; Darla as rough beast, for one, Connor, Jasmine...and The Beast itself, who appears in "Slouching Toward Bethlehem." The motions leading up to that are started right here... I noticed that too; in fact, I put it in my notes "maggot face! Like Jasmine!" and then forgot to put in my analysis. I think I got overly excited figuring out the Vocah/havoc anagram. Because, yes, I do think it means a lot; I think it's very significant; especially how the words used in his "rising" is all about balance, dark/light, good/evil, and because they are balanced, they are equal. Much as Jasmine/Cordy will later tell Connor; "we're special," and "the rules don't apply." Hee! Well, I did say "dim echo." Strangely, the Connor/Cordy affair, although some think it was gratuituous, I actually thought it fit quite nicely with both their arcs. (Not a popular opinion...I know.) And you are absolutely right; even Cordy refers to herself as "new Cordy" and "old Cordy." Sadly, she falls into the same trap, eventually, as Angel does; by compartmentalizing parts of her life and/or self, rather than integrating her less-than-nice earlier incarnation into her current worldview, she makes herself much more vulnerable later on... Absolutely. The hotel is a nice, understated metaphor for the secret, unexplored rooms in each of the Fang Gang's lives. Hence, we have Wes in "Billy" stalking Fred through the trashed and unfinished rooms of the hotel. (But I should save that for Season 3.) *blush* OK. Thanks, darlin'! (Just be happy I didn't bring in the Wang Chung song of the same name!) Clarity. That seems to be Angel's biggest stumbling block...he wants a clear path, right and wrong, black and white; which is why Pylea is so attractive to him, why Angelus is so hard for him to control. Great comments; I don't have a whole lot more to add...I love this back and forth!
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Post by Lola m on Mar 24, 2005 17:44:09 GMT -5
Wow, Erin! Masterful analysis. Really! Not just minioning here – you really did something special with this.
Right from the opening paragraph, I was nodding along. “To Shanshu in LA” serving as a second part to “Blind Date” and, as such, acting as an arrow pointing us straight at season 5. Right to Connor and Jasmine and the assimilation of W&H. More than chill-inducing. There was no way for us to know back then where it would all end up. Just like the Fang Gang has no idea of the twists and turns to come. All we know, from the moment Cordy sees the big picture, from the moment Wes deciphers “live until you die”, from the moment Angel attaches hope and connection to the prophesy, is that things will never be the same again.
I’m so glad you make a strong point of Angel’s need to be connected. Wes and Cordy remind us what Doyle was supposed to be doing. Making sure Angel was involved with the world, connected. As the years go by, all of us – Angel, the FG, we the audience – will come more and more to remember only one part of Wes’ description of the Shanshu prophesy. That it is the vampire with a soul’s “reward”. And so we all talk about how that might contribute to losing the mission – that paying more attention to his someday “reward” perhaps becomes more important to Angel than helping the helpless. But the discovery of the prophesy happens in this episode, when connection is re-stressed, and strongly. Reminding us (I think deliberately) of Doyle’s mission. At the end of the episode, Angel actually shows some interest, a slight smile, a connection, at the idea of being human. It’s what he always wanted for Buffy; it’s what he had a taste of himself, earlier in the season. It’s a way for him to make a connection with humanity again – to contemplate rejoining humanity. As Riff and others point out, reward is only one way to look at it, and might not be the best way. Yet we all fall into that trap, at one time or anther.
I can’t even think of one more thing to add to your discussion of balance, I can only flipperwave and eetah. This part in particular just nailed it to me.
(Not the least because you oh so correctly identify that one of Angel’s weaknesses is his need for clarity – how many times at W&H he pined for things to be “simple”.)
All the instances of balance, comparison and contrast. Vampires feed on humans and to bring back a human Darla it takes a sacrifice of vampires. Vocah tells us about the first who shall be last and, as you mention, utilizes the paradoxical nature of vampires, “without breath…time…sun…soul…yet they live,”. (Loved the phrase “faux-shanshu of Darla, by the way.) You summarize so well how this tipping of scales – changing of balance and order – sets in motion the tumbling dominoes of the next 4 seasons. Cordelia is the perfect metaphor here. Because she is the one we see changed so much. Not only as she is tormented by the non-stop visions, tied down in a hospital. But because by the end of the episode, she is changed emotionally – committed to the mission in a way that she was not before. She knows now. And yet this is a “fork in the road” moment that we are unaware of at this time. There is a road being traveled that is hidden from all of us. Wes helps break the hold of visions with one part of the scroll, but, as you point out:
Your description of the change from office and home to the “wider and less predictable space, with hundreds of rooms yet to be explored” was a perfect description of the way seasons 2 & 3 will be shaped. Re-watching the scene where the old offices explode brought back all the memories of seeing it when it first aired. What a shock it was! Particularly in its timing, coming only midway through the hour. So much happens in this episode, so much had already happened by that point and then the building blows and I was just sitting there stunned. I remember thinking, OMG and we’ve still got half the show to go! What else can they possibly have happen? A lot, as it turned out!
Well, I could go on and on. And I probably will, later.
Kudos again, Erin!
Lola
P.S. I had the same “Oooo, it’s like Jasmine’s maggot face” thought as everyone else (probably made the same note as Erin).
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Post by Queen E on Mar 26, 2005 0:42:57 GMT -5
Wow, Erin! Masterful analysis. Really! Not just minioning here – you really did something special with this. Right from the opening paragraph, I was nodding along. “To Shanshu in LA” serving as a second part to “Blind Date” and, as such, acting as an arrow pointing us straight at season 5. Right to Connor and Jasmine and the assimilation of W&H. More than chill-inducing. There was no way for us to know back then where it would all end up. Just like the Fang Gang has no idea of the twists and turns to come. All we know, from the moment Cordy sees the big picture, from the moment Wes deciphers “live until you die”, from the moment Angel attaches hope and connection to the prophesy, is that things will never be the same again. All expressed in that little smile of Angel's. He so rarely smiles... Really, my head almost exploded with the amount of stuff in this episode. Seeing as I originally watched it right after "Restless," I'm surprised I didn't go fetal with the amount of input. The thing you really feel when you watch it is the click, the shift: as Vocah puts in "the old order passes away..." It occurs to me that Angel really follows a similar arc to Buffy's, that was sadly truncated. We have the Fang Gang, and Angel's story really established, a mission and a purpose defined, and the next 4 seasons take that all away from him, until all that's left is a fight to the death in the alley, in which he realizes that the good fight is his gift. What we will see, I think, in Seasons 6 and 7 (whenever they choose to air), is Angel reestablishing and integrating the dark and the light, as Buffy did. There's more to discuss here, but...later... Yes, and no matter how clear your "vision" or "visions" are, you really cannot know the whole path, because it is really determined by the choices you make. I think that's what they emphasize the most. Even in Season 4, exhausted and demoralized by Cordelia's evil, the FG doesn't wholeheartedly accept Skip's words: as tempting and overwhelming as his assertion that it was all planned is, I think they know, deep down, that there is a difference between taking advantage of a situation and outright manipulating it. Even Sahjahn's efforts in changing his death prophesy still ended up in his death. That's the only certainty, and that's what Gunn points out in his talk with Fred: the final score can't be fixed. I may have lost my point. Sorry. Let it never be said that Joss doesn't go for the big gestures. Couldn't just leave the offices, could they? No, it had to explode! But really, it's definitely is a metaphor for the FG growing past it...all of them changing, in big and small ways. Oof...I gotta go to bed. Thanks for your most awesome and insightful comments!
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Post by Riff on Mar 27, 2005 15:03:29 GMT -5
But, on the other hand, that means Connor and Sahjahn fulfilled what was preordained, that they were puppets of fate. Sahjahn's failure to overturn the prophecy to me indicates that he was unable to exercise free will to change what the higher powers had already decided for him. Just because he was one of the bad guys, that doesn’t change anything. And Connor was also unwillingly dragged in to fulfil his part.
As a matter of fact, I don’t see very much free will in the situation at all. I see games pieces grudgingly doing what they’re told. The final score was fixed, by something bigger than all the characters...
On a lighter note, that also implies that the Black Thorn were wasting their time by trying to dispose of the Shanshu.
*laughs* There’s no escape from this shells/puppets thing, is there? ;D
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Post by Riff on Mar 27, 2005 15:09:38 GMT -5
Trust me; this is good. Eetah. The wider arcs were there, but far more under the surface, and not as connected to the main plots, often. The stand-alone quality of the eps in the first season is very similar to the feel of BtVS Season 1 and really makes me wonder exactly what the future would have had in store for Firefly… Grrr. That is good thinking, and also brings up the question of whether that had anything to do with the Black Thorn wanting the Shanshu cancelled (if, indeed, that is what happened). If I had been in the Black Thorn, I would have wanted Angel to give up his soul to prove his loyalty (as Sebassis seems to assume must have happened anyway, at one point). If Angelus proved unmanageable, at least he would be great force of evil in the world. Sebassis is already in his fan club, and probably has a crush on him. ;D Eetah. The reference to anarchy (which presumably means chaos, havoc) in “The Second Coming” is also interesting, because we do see a breakdown (or several escalating breakdowns) of order and the FG’s cohesion as the series develops, culminating in the appearance of Illyria and the despair of the alley. That makes perfect sense. So, in that case, why the maggots, the symbol of decay? Are they a symbol of entropy, a reduction in universal order? Chaos is presumably balanced against order in this context. I’ve heard treatment is available for that. ;D Connor/Cordy (*laughs* I wonder what the shipper name is?). Certainly it fits into Connor’s motivations and arc. Unfortunately, it fits into it in a disturbingly Oedipal way that Angelus correctly identified (as he has a knack for). *shiver* I have to say that, in a non-Oedipal way, an affair with a woman like Cordelia fits nicely into the arc of any eighteen-year-old heterosexual male. He wishes, anyway. ;D But Cordelia herself? I’m clinging onto the belief that she was already at least partially controlled by Jasmine or something else by that point. *continues clinging* I would suspect that after her own epiphany in this ep she sees her old self as unacceptable in many ways. In fact, the older Cordelia’s venom filtered through the new Cordy’s compassion is a wonderful thing, I think. And that older Cordy is where she gets much of her strength. So, Eetah – by being wary of her older self she does leave herself more open. But, Erin! That will be more than a year away! *thinks about how Fred hides in dark places* *smiles* You’re very welcome. Angel and Wang Chung – a match made in Hades. ;D And, I suppose, that’s where the whole “balance” issue is important. The clarity, certainty, that he lost upon his ensoulment is the problem, I suspect. Perhaps ME are suggesting that morality is not so simple, and nor should we expect/demand it to be.
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Post by Queen E on Apr 4, 2005 13:08:30 GMT -5
But, on the other hand, that means Connor and Sahjahn fulfilled what was preordained, that they were puppets of fate. Sahjahn's failure to overturn the prophecy to me indicates that he was unable to exercise free will to change what the higher powers had already decided for him. Just because he was one of the bad guys, that doesn’t change anything. And Connor was also unwillingly dragged in to fulfil his part. As a matter of fact, I don’t see very much free will in the situation at all. I see games pieces grudgingly doing what they’re told. The final score was fixed, by something bigger than all the characters... On a lighter note, that also implies that the Black Thorn were wasting their time by trying to dispose of the Shanshu. *laughs* There’s no escape from this shells/puppets thing, is there? ;D Hee! Can't you see the strings? That's the thing, though...I think the point was that that particular final score (ie, death) is going to come sooner or later. For instance, Buffy fulfilled the prophecy that she would die at the hands of the master, only to be brought back by Xander. That outcome wasn't predetermined...and was at the same time. It's a tangle. As for Sahjahn, had he not meddled with the prophecy in the first place, he never would have been made corporeal by Angel, and therefore would have been impossible to kill. I don't know why he got his incorporeal knickers in such a twist about it when he couldn't actually BE killed. Perhaps the lesson in Sahjahn's story is the notion of the self-fulfilling prophesy. And hey! I'm not supposed to be on Sahjahn yet!
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Post by Queen E on Apr 4, 2005 17:02:07 GMT -5
*happy blush* Grr indeed. Still not completely recovered from the Firefly/Buffy/Wonderfalls/Miracles cancellations of that particularly 18 months. I do not include Angel because I still believe in Season 6! The Shanshu is a complicated issue, and one that it may have never been in the best interest of the overall arc to resolve. I've been of the opinion, since Season 3, and in agreement with Wes, that the Shanshu WAS fulfilled by the arrival of Connor. But that's just me and Wes... So how would you slash that? Sangel? Aebassis? (That sounds rather Tolkien-esque.) But, you're right. Angelus, with the resources and running of Wolfram and Hart? Shudder. And this is where we part ways, because I've always thought that the alley was an affirmation of the central mission, a "back to the beginning," if you will. Most of the important events, the signal events in Angel's life: his turning by Darla, his first meeting with Buffy, the reemergence of Angelus in Surprise/Innocence, the death of Darla and the birth of Connor, the emergence of the Beast, all occurred in alleys. A conduit between here and there. With rain figuring in most of these scenes, you get a nice theme of rebirth and reemergence in a new form, which we will see in Season 6, if I have to write the damn thing myself. Precisely. Perhaps more on the side of entropy than decay...which is a natural state, but we see with both Vocah and Jasmine, they are tilting the balance too far, pushing naturally occurring entropy into horror and decay... Oh, dear. That's what I've been thinking all along; I never thought there was another way to read that scene, which is why it didn't ick me as much as a lot of people. That's the moment I knew that something was off with Cordy. The "real" Cordy wouldn't do that, and combining that with her opening dream sequence, where she's talking about some "old movie" about "pod people," I knew Cordelia was evil. Exactly. She forgets that, unlike Angelus, old Cordy, once exposed to Buffy, already showed a glimmer of the Cordelia to come, already distinguished herself from the pack of the Cordettes. Hey! I made it though Season 1 in less than a year! I should be to "Billy" by Christmas, at least, o ye of little faith! Oh, yeah, and Perv! *grin* You think Wolfram and Hart represented them? Absolutely. The reason that some of the moral questions in Buffy were easier was the fact that it was a smaller canvas in which the S'cubies were painting on, so to speak. (I am drowning in metaphors today.) Not that the questions were simple, but, in some ways, especially in the earlier seasons, the dilemmas were not as damned, so to speak, as they almost always were on Angel. Damned in the sense that both choices are full of heartbreak and pain.
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Post by Riff on Apr 6, 2005 8:37:04 GMT -5
As for Sahjahn, had he not meddled with the prophecy in the first place, he never would have been made corporeal by Angel, and therefore would have been impossible to kill. I don't know why he got his incorporeal knickers in such a twist about it when he couldn't actually BE killed. Perhaps the lesson in Sahjahn's story is the notion of the self-fulfilling prophesy. And hey! I'm not supposed to be on Sahjahn yet! Sorry, I’m impatient. ;D And exactly! Sahjahn had to meddle with the prophecy in order to fulfil the prophecy, which shows (since true prophecies are always fulfilled) that he had no free will, though he thought he did, and was forced to meddle by fate, not like a real boy at all! *laughs* I know, I know. It depends on how one looks at it. It does sound Tolkien-esque, and Sangel is far too like Spangle. Why not break with tradition very slightly and have Angassis? Hmmm. Didn’t he marry Jackie Kennedy? As for the Shanshu, Wes obviously didn’t think of it that way in The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco: “I'm sorry, Angel, but nothing matters more. Hope: It's the only thing that will sustain you, that will keep you from ending up like Number 5.” Of course, he didn’t know about Connor then because of the mindwipe and erm… ;D *wipes his brow* There are tangled webs in the Angelverse. Our ways are not entirely parted here, because I also see the alley as a scene of rebirth. However, I don’t consider the characters as reborn at the conclusion of NFA, because to me everything is screaming, wrong! mistake! played! What I think we see is the prelude to, or beginning of, a painful rebirth, rather than the end of the process. If we think of Buffy’s leap at the end of The Gift (also the finale of a fifth season), that can also be thought of as a similar prelude. There is a kind of affirmation, but there’s also something wrong. So I would call it more a momentary diversion than a parting. I’m sure you’d make an excellent job of writing Season Six. Then all you have to do is find a studio, funding, and all the actors. Oh, and I suppose you’d have to get the go-ahead from Joss, too. ;D *sigh* More Angelverse, please! Your interpretation is spot on. The pod people. Of course. *slaps forehead, as usual* And thank goodness! Because the other way to look at it is that Cordy is in a sort of Buffy-in-Season-Six situation. First she comes back into a world she doesn’t know or understand, then she regains her memory and her knowledge of Angelus just as she’s beginning to trust and even rediscover her love of Angel. She’s lost, and, like we’ve seen with Buffy, Wes, and others, her sexuality moves in a less-than-wholesome direction as a consequence. But you’re right. (Don’t dare tell me I’ve convinced you of the other interpretation now. ;D) I’m sorry, I must have been confusing the speed you write with the rate that I write (the word “speed” could never be applied to how I work ). *wide-eyed innocence* And I have no idea what you mean about the other thing. *laughs*
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Post by Queen E on Apr 8, 2005 12:54:52 GMT -5
Sorry, I’m impatient. ;D And exactly! Sahjahn had to meddle with the prophecy in order to fulfil the prophecy, which shows (since true prophecies are always fulfilled) that he had no free will, though he thought he did, and was forced to meddle by fate, not like a real boy at all! *laughs* I know, I know. It depends on how one looks at it. One of the many examples of "six of one, half dozen the other" scenarios in the Jossverse. Groan! Breathe my friend, breathe... Oh, yes, I didn't mean to imply that the alley represents a fait accompli...I agree; it is the beginning of the beginning of a rebirth. Painful, horrible, possibly completely wrong-headed, but a start... Oh, well if those are the only things standing in my way... Don't worry, you haven't. But for some reason, I now have an unholy craving for Hostess Chocodiles. *grin* I actually never thought of it, really, as a Season 6 Buffy scenario at all, although they played it a bit like that, a misdirection, methinks. Their first kiss, to me, was a bit of a tip off. Because I think Cordy (not yet taken over yet by Jasmine) was both surprised and slightly horrified that she did it...even if it was an innocent (at first), "Yay, we beat the bad guy" bit of affection. Or it could just be a way to dick both Angel and Connor around and set them at each other's throats... Oh, certainly you do not....and I really really believe that.
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Post by Lola m on Apr 9, 2005 12:41:59 GMT -5
Trust me; this is good. Eetah. The wider arcs were there, but far more under the surface, and not as connected to the main plots, often. The stand-alone quality of the eps in the first season is very similar to the feel of BtVS Season 1 and really makes me wonder exactly what the future would have had in store for Firefly… Grrr. Grrrrr, indeed! It is the thing that makes me feel the most sick about Firefly. Because we know what Joss can do with arc and continuity and a "big" story, and I could see, in a dim way, the amazing entire universe he was building. It would have been amazing, heck it was already on its way to being amazing, serial television. A movie, even several movies, while they are able to bring an element of epic scope, can't provide as much long-term arc as a series. They just don't have enough time and they aren't "there" every week. I am still of several minds regarding the Shanshu. Can one "sign away" a prophesy? Is that what the Black Thorn and Sebassis really wanted? Were they really just aiming for an alienation of Angel, for a return of Angelus, in accorance with the prophesy, rather than in place of it? Very interesting way to put it - and it does fit aspects of Illyria. But I think I am closer to Erin's way of thinking. I also see the fight against the Black Thorn as a return to their original mission. Win or lose, I can't help returning to the way I first looked at it. If any client had come to them when they were AI with a problem due to any of the individual members of the BT, they would have been in there, trying to help, even at the risk of their own lives. It was what Angel started out doing. Save the baby, stop the sacrifice, kill the monster who is going to kill the innocent, etc. ETA: Definitely agreeing with the idea of the "messy" rebirth. It was the start of what we would have will see in season 6 and 7. Riff's comparison with Buffy's jump is intriging - and feels sort of right. Influenced by Jasmine, at least, is my take on it. Certainly pushed in that direction by the surrounding events and her own feelings of resignation and purposelessness. <snipped for space> I think that on AtS in particular, that was a main theme that Joss and ME were suggesting. That the grey areas of life are right and natural. Something we need to not just accept, but enjoy. Life is to be engaged actively - always trying to understand others, not just making assumptions. Lola And I'm babbling again. ;D
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Post by Queen E on Apr 12, 2005 11:27:53 GMT -5
Grrrrr, indeed! It is the thing that makes me feel the most sick about Firefly. Because we know what Joss can do with arc and continuity and a "big" story, and I could see, in a dim way, the amazing entire universe he was building. It would have been amazing, heck it was already on its way to being amazing, serial television. A movie, even several movies, while they are able to bring an element of epic scope, can't provide as much long-term arc as a series. They just don't have enough time and they aren't "there" every week. *sigh* Word, Lola. Word. I'm wondering if the Black Thorn really had a plan, or if just served as another way to "sign in blood" and further demoralize Angel. What I really feel, though, is that his very "signing away" of that Shanshu is a selfless act, and could very well bring it about... Noble stupidity seems to be the middle ground the three of us are looking for, and would apply to both Buffy's jump and the alley. What is intriguingly different is that Glory was defeated by the Scoobies bringing each of their strengths to the fore: Buffy's strength and love, Willow's magic, Spike's fearlessness, Giles' long-term vision, and Xander's timing. The outcome of the battle in the alley is a question mark, but I think it was severally weakened by sending each to their own fight, rather than really working as a team... Great babble. Awesome babble. Please feel free to babble here any time!
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