|
|
Post by Queen E on May 26, 2005 21:46:20 GMT -5
Feed me.
|
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on May 31, 2005 16:20:02 GMT -5
Yes, yes, yes!! You started this off so perfectly when you said:
Because it really struck me how much the rest of this season is foreshadowed in this episode. All the examples of types of people who are “outcast” by society, or out of the mainstream compared and contrasted with Angel’s (not Angelus’, Angel’s) dark side. His isolation (as he will isolate himself from the AI folks later in the season) and his . . . indifference to violence (I found his walk out of the hotel, leaving the humans to their fate, very foreshadow-y to his walk out of the wine cellar, leaving the W&H folk in the hands of Darla and Dru.) But it is a taste of things to come all the way up to the end of the series as well. His parting line “take them all“seems to prepare the way for the final “kill them all” attitude during, and ending of, season 5.
Liked how you explained on the idea of Angel as isolated and uninvolved with humans – not actively hurting, but not helping either. Or rather, taking a first step out to help and getting his foot cut off for the trouble. I love the picture of his past that is slowly being revealed to us. From our perspective now, we can place this after his refugee and puppy-saving days, after his grudging assistance to the U.S. Navy in WWII, but before Manilow and dining on shooting victims and rats. It really all makes sense, when we are able to step back and see the arc. As you said, the closest we see to the Angel in this flashback is the one in “Why We Fight”, and this makes a lot of sense when you think of the timeline. Angel is “watching” humanity – and not being too thrilled by the view. Which links us back to the very start of AtS and Doyle’s mission to help Angel make a “connection” with people. TPTB attempting to break the pattern of advance and retreat that has been his habit ever since he got his soul.
I was glad that you also reminded me of the element of hope provided by the example of Denver, the bookseller. Angel at the crossroads at that time. Willing to try to help Judy, yet also willing to give in. Not trying to explain to the mob, not willing to really admit that while the fears were present in the humans, they would not have reached the mob point were it not for the outside demonic influence.
Not a one off episode at all. I realize this more and more, each time I watch it.
Lola
P.S. “Cosmically, Angel’s debt is so large he is billed weekly” is a great line.
|
|
|
|
Post by Queen E on May 31, 2005 20:35:06 GMT -5
Yes, yes, yes!! You started this off so perfectly when you said: Because it really struck me how much the rest of this season is foreshadowed in this episode. All the examples of types of people who are “outcast” by society, or out of the mainstream compared and contrasted with Angel’s (not Angelus’, Angel’s) dark side. His isolation (as he will isolate himself from the AI folks later in the season) and his . . . indifference to violence (I found his walk out of the hotel, leaving the humans to their fate, very foreshadow-y to his walk out of the wine cellar, leaving the W&H folk in the hands of Darla and Dru.) But it is a taste of things to come all the way up to the end of the series as well. His parting line “take them all“seems to prepare the way for the final “kill them all” attitude during, and ending of, season 5. I thought that too! There was SO much in this episode that I couldn't put it all in. And, honestly, the first few times I watched it (when it originally aired, when I watched it on DVD the first time), it just seemed like 'oh, here's an interesting peek into Angel's past, and a way to get the AI group into the Hyperion. But, oh so much more... "Pattern of advance and retreat" is the perfect way to express Angel's MO. It would be interesting to watch all the Angel flashback episodes in timeline order and watch that pattern emerge. Here's a question: Did Angel ever truly connect with humanity? Or is that perhaps what Connor represents? And sadly, poor Denver ends up skewered halfway through the season, severing that particular link. By Darla, no less. It shows how Darla really represents the ultimate victory of W & H; Darla (and eventually Connor) will obsess Angel until he capitulates to them in Season 5. Aww...thanks! Now I'm blushing... And your feedback, as usual, is always an inspiration! |
|
|
|
Post by Karen on Jun 12, 2005 23:07:59 GMT -5
I hate this episode. I mean - I picked it for my least favorite of the Jossverse. It's depressing and sad and the flashback stuff gave me fits when I first saw it. That being said - I loved your analysis, Erin, and now I don't hate "Are you now or have you ever been?" anymore. In fact, I have a greater appreciation for what Joss was trying to say. One of the things that bothered me was Angel's wardrobe in the flashback. His little pot-belly in that 'wifebeater' t-shirt was very unattractive. Angel withdrawn and unengaged is very unattractive. I figure that was the point. I also hated how the crowd turned on Angel and hung him. Even though a lot of that was the demon's doing, it still sickened me. I couldn't watch the episode for years after I saw it the first time. Good point about how Angel didn't apologize to Judy for not killing the demon that sucked the life out of her for 50 years. Is it because he didn't realize what he did? Or he didn't think it was wrong?  Interesting observation about the 'bit players'. I kept trying to get a good look at the woman to see if I recognized the actress, but she was shot is such a way that you really couldn't get a good look at her. All three have so much to hide that who they really are is never revealed.I noticed when Wesley was doing the spell to corporealize the demon that the orb he was carrying and the words he said was very similar to what happened when his memories were returned by the breaking of the Orlon Window- We invoke thee by the power of all the Priests of Ramjerin. What was once in our thoughts, be now in our midst.From "Origin" About the Orlon Window - It allows warlocks such as myself to see the past as it once was.Typed out like that - not so similar. ;D I do see a lot of similarities to Angel moving into the Hyperion and his eventual move to W&H. He felt he could do good from within something that was (or used to be) evil. There was a quote I jotted down - but it's at home - not here at my son's house. I'll add it later. It reminded me of W&H. Anyway, thank you for your analysis, Erin It's helped me gain a greater appreciation for the ep. I'll have to rethink my vote for least-favorite episode now.  |
|
|
|
Post by Queen E on Jun 13, 2005 12:56:40 GMT -5
I hate this episode. I mean - I picked it for my least favorite of the Jossverse. It's depressing and sad and the flashback stuff gave me fits when I first saw it. That being said - I loved your analysis, Erin, and now I don't hate "Are you now or have you ever been?" anymore. In fact, I have a greater appreciation for what Joss was trying to say. That is the best compliment; thank you! Yes, the wardrobe was extremely disturbing; it was also time-appropriate (I think). The fact that Angel wears the costume of each era (often to the extreme, like in the 70s) shows that even in a small way, he is trying to participate, to be of the world, if not in it. The lynching was terrible and brutal. The sad part is, it's really unclear exactly how much was due to the demon; with the end of the war, the continuing segregation and racial tensions, and the McCarthy trials (which hit Los Angeles particularly hard, if I recall my history correctly, as it has always been viewed as full of moral turpitude), nobody at the Hyperion really needed much pushing. I feel like he knew it was wrong (why else would he be ashamed of his behavior?), but he felt he was more wronged in the scenario. Or maybe he felt it was understood, or there simply wasn't enough time... That's an excellent point, and definitely underscores the "hiding" theme of the episode. Maybe not precisely the same, but both spells are asking for something passed or intangible to be made real, so I think your parallel is right on. And most excellent observation about the Hyperion representing another "belly of the beast." Could it be that Angel really likes a challenge?  Again, that is a wonderful compliment, and I am thrilled that I could add to you seeing it in a new light. Doing these analyses is fun for me, but it makes me happy to know others enjoy them too! |
|
|
|
Post by Riff on Jul 31, 2005 14:21:56 GMT -5
I think your linking of the Hyperion itself with moral ambiguousness and paranoia is spot on, and something I’ve been thinking about, myself. It never has the cosy feel of the old AI offices – there’s always moral danger for the characters, and this escalates throughout season’s two, three, and four. At the moment, it is primarily Angel’s paranoia that defines the Hotel, but we will ultimately see this in almost all the characters at one time or another. And, yes, the episode is indeed all about passing. As in Nella Larsen’s novel of the same name, we have the concept of people posing as what they are not, and the inevitable unreliability of character that leads either to or from this. Perhaps Angel – who, as you point out, is revealed to repeat his mistakes – is doomed to make connections that will lead to the deaths of others. Having him as a friend tends to lead one into psychological and/or physical death. All of the characters have something to hide, and it is perhaps their paranoia over this that sooner or later leads them to become suspicious of the flaws in others. All those false appearances, to me, are linked to what all of them fear. This may be different in each case, but actually boils down to the same thing: fear of failure. They fear they will become what they really are and lose the person they (usually mistakenly) aspire to be. Your focus on Angel’s complicity lead me to think of the other times when he’s been guilty of something morally questionable, the most recent being his murder of Drogan. This is a flaw which I’m sure would have eventually been examined. I suspect Season Six would have seen Angel having to face the consequences of many of his decisions. Bloody WB. Getting back to the Hyperion (if we ever left – evil laugh ), is it possible, I wonder that there is something about the place which facilitates the miseries which lie ahead? A bad place brings out the worst in people? It is while the FG are at the Hyperion that we see them at their darkest. |
|
|
|
Post by Queen E on Aug 3, 2005 22:34:09 GMT -5
I think your linking of the Hyperion itself with moral ambiguousness and paranoia is spot on, and something I’ve been thinking about, myself. It never has the cosy feel of the old AI offices – there’s always moral danger for the characters, and this escalates throughout season’s two, three, and four. At the moment, it is primarily Angel’s paranoia that defines the Hotel, but we will ultimately see this in almost all the characters at one time or another. See, and I don't see Angel as being particularly paranoid during the beginning of the season, but the longer he is in the hotel, the more he becomes closed off, secretive, and, yes, paranoid. What's also interesting is that in the old AI offices, it would have been nearly impossible for Darla to make a serious play for Angel...there was little privacy, since it was right below the offices. As the season progressed, neither Cordy nor Wes seemed uncomfortable coming right downstairs into his home. It was much rarer for them to enter the Fortress of Solitude without knocking. Oh, I wish I had read that before my analysis.  And if I had the analysis to do over, I would have focused a bit more on how "in flux" Cordy and Wes's identities still are. The Pylea arc is a good place to explore that though...it's sad that just as Cordy finds her feet and realizes where she belongs, Season 3 comes along and kicks everybody's ass. Well, he is a vampire. I think the same could be said for Buffy, too, in a more limited sense. The good fight is still a fight, and there are going to be both physical, psychological, and moral casualities strewn in their paths. Oh, eetah! Fear of failure, and, fear of self. Judy says, "I'm nothing" and I think that represents not only her fear, but all of their fears. Except Angel, for whom "being nothing" seems to actually be his goal. Note that we never see the demon say anything significant to him, in terms of playing or amplifying imaginary concerns. It definitely starts here; he was on a good path until the Shanshu was introduced. That's what allowed him to be played so often...and signing it away was a wise move, in my opinion. Then he started working because he expected a reward...and we'll see that paralleled with Cordelia later on. Which is not the point of what you were saying, precisely. What I meant to say is that yes...Season 6 WILL have him facing these ambiguities, and integrating them into his personality... Oh, I think you're absolutely right. I think Wesley was spot on when he said it was host to decades of evil...that kind of evil leaves an imprint on a place; it will never be entirely "clean." I mean, geez, why not just set up the AI offices in the Overlook? And thank you so much for commenting...it makes me happy and I get to try to sound as smart as you! |
|
|
|
Post by Michelle on May 10, 2007 15:29:01 GMT -5
I caught this episode on TNT this morning and I was immediately pulled in by the flashbacks to the 50s. Angel's hair with the side part, and the cotton jacket layered over a shirt and wife beater. Karen wrote (2 years ago) that she found that look unattractive, but find it rather appealing. Different strokes.
I decided to check here to see if someone had reviewed the ep, and sure enough, Erin did. Woot! I liked your comments about how Angel set himself apart from the others, silently observing all the various dramas going on around him, and pairing that with the many references to looking. He looked and looked until he could no longer be just an impartial observer.
It was also interesting the way you pointed out how in our supposedly "free" country, people still felt the need to hide their true selves from others for fear of McCarthyesque retribution: Angel hid his vampiric nature from the other residents, Judy denied her mixed race, the gay actor forced to stay in the closet, and so on. Being "different" (for example African American, or a Communist) is cause for shame. And it all points back to Angel, and how he feels ashamed of his unsouled past and how in the present he is neither a real man or a real vampire.
This is an episode with many more layers than I originally would have thought, but you did a wonderful job of pointing them out.
Excellent review, Erin!!
|
|
|
|
Post by Queen E on May 10, 2007 17:48:00 GMT -5
I caught this episode on TNT this morning and I was immediately pulled in by the flashbacks to the 50s. Angel's hair with the side part, and the cotton jacket layered over a shirt and wife beater. Karen wrote (2 years ago) that she found that look unattractive, but find it rather appealing. Different strokes. What a nice surprise on a Thursday, to have comments and things! Hee! Different strokes indeed. And it is a very 50s sort of look. Wow! Thank you so much; I had a lot of fun writing it. (And once I finish my upgrade panel and Heroes is over for the season, then I can look forward to writing more Angelphiles.) It's interesting, too, when you look at the worlds of Buffy and Angel, how much more Angel is about finding your place in the world at large, wheras Buffy was always more about finding out who you are. Some of the issues remain the same (why do I have to be different? Why can't I be normal?), but those issues are so much bigger in the Angelverse, and have much different consequences. There is also a point that I didn't make in the analysis, but occurred to me later...that of vengence. The bellboy ended up paying for his unquestioning mob mentality by being accused of the very murder he knew was a suicide. Angel allows the Thesulac continued access to the hotel because he felt betrayed; he fixes it later (much later), but can paranoia ever really be exorcised? I may be getting off track here... Thank you so much for commenting; every comment makes me have new and shiny thoughts...well, shiny and new to me. |
|
And if I had the analysis to do over, I would have focused a bit more on how "in flux" Cordy and Wes's identities still are. The Pylea arc is a good place to explore that though...it's sad that just as Cordy finds her feet and realizes where she belongs, Season 3 comes along and kicks everybody's ass.