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Post by Queen E on Jul 18, 2005 13:22:09 GMT -5
Post. It makes me feel all tingly inside!
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Post by Lola m on Jul 24, 2005 14:12:04 GMT -5
Very very nice analysis, Erin! I love how you talk about the overall arc of the season (3-ring circus, the mixing and integration of the gang) as well as the arc of this ep (all the "duo-dly" pairings, the continual reminder not to be fooled by appearances). It took us the first two eps of the season to "place" Angel - set him up to be ready for the next phase of AI and his story. But in this episode, we really add in all the rest of the gang to the mix and place them in their nice new display box - the Hyperion. Now we're ready to move forward. So of course, we have the first steps of that movement that you point out here. Cordy and Gunn, each with more layers than at first glance and coming together in a way that you would never have expected at the start of the episode. Angel and Wes (mmmmmm, slashy goodness. . . mmmmm  ) possibly foreshadowing all the dark dark Connor based arc to come. And Angel and Darla, definitely foreshadowing the immediate arc of separation from the gang - following as she leads him down W&H's garden path. Really liked how you pointed out that each fantasy sequence with Darla and Angel involves separating him from the AI gang. Not just physically, with the two of them always alone (mmmmmm, sexy goodness with the two of them "moonbathing" or making out in the Hyperion lobby, mmmmmm ) but also, Darla is always trying to separate him with words as well. Talking about how the others don't understand him or don't say thank you, etc. All this is pointing us directly to the whole rest of the season. Very interesting end bit, talking about the parallel between Nabbit and Gunn. I had noticed the matching "I've been up since dawn" lines, but never really thought about why they were making a comparison between these two characters. But really, like you point out, they are once again showing us the direction that the show is heading. The AI gang is not going to be working with or for the David Nabbit's of the world - they aren't the ones that Angel needs to help. Gunn represents the daily grind of demon fighting, the "real world" folks that need a protectors or champions like Angel and the AI team. Cool bean, Erin! Nice job. |
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Post by Queen E on Jul 26, 2005 17:44:02 GMT -5
Very very nice analysis, Erin! I love how you talk about the overall arc of the season (3-ring circus, the mixing and integration of the gang) as well as the arc of this ep (all the "duo-dly" pairings, the continual reminder not to be fooled by appearances). Thank you! Honestly, it took me the better part of 2 months to finally finish this review. Some of that can be blamed on the move, but it was hard to find a toehold in this episode. Until I thought: Gunn--->mirror--->impression...and things started falling into place. Plus how many different fronts things occurred on, and the separation of all of them in this episode.... Exactly. Judgement: we have them dealing with the surprising revelations of "To Shanshu in LA" and forming a more cohesive bond. "Are You Now or Have You Ever Been" brings us to the "new display box" and clues us in that Angel's past is going to have a profound impact on this season. "First Impressions" is really the opening shot of the Darla/Angel arc that will dominate the rest of the show... Hee. I thought you'd like that! But naked man leaping on top of other naked man...is pretty much leaving subtext behind. (I could make a naughty comment here, but will refrain.) There is a huge focus on "duo-dlys" in this season, that I will get into more as the season progresses, but even just in Angel's arc, we've got Darla/Angel, Darla/Drusilla, Darla/Lindsey, Angel/Lorne, and Angel/Lindsey. Pairing and mirroring, all the way to Pylea...it's enough to make your head spin, and is really getting me excited to get there... Angel isolated is dangerous. Doyle knew that, and told him. The 70s doughnut shop taught him that. His experience of making Buffy the center of his life in Sunnydale should have taught him that. Yet we see a continuing pattern of isolation when he fears he'll hurt others. But it's that isolation that makes him more vulnerable. Interacting with people brings him closer to humanity... Thank you, sweetie! You are just the best, you know that? It's true, for now, at least. It would have been interesting to see David Nabbit return in Season 5; wonder if he would have still thought them "cool demon fighters" in the glass wonderland of Wolfram and Hart... |
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Post by Riff on Jul 31, 2005 14:19:04 GMT -5
*laughing* The romantic struggles of Angel can be a little on the amusing side. I have a feeling that Wes and Cordy’s skit in “Fredless” was to some extent the writers lampooning what was, to them, an increasingly corny plot line. There is, of course, a serious side (as there tends to be in the Jossverse). The “impossibility” and tragedy of Buffy and Angel’s relationship (if we think of the conclusion to BtVS Season Two, for example) stands as a blueprint for all romantic relationships in BtVS and AtS. There is almost ludicrous tragedy everywhere.
You’re absolutely right that there are more disguises/false impressions. Is that the main theme for this season, do you think? On the other hand, we gradually see people’s true self emerging. Wes, for example, becomes a more sombre figure, so that he is notably changed by the first episode of Season Three (though this may be more down to AD’s performance than the writing; I’m not certain). This relates to what you say about Cordy’s behaviour in the ep. I imagine that what we see is post-TSILA Cordy.
You make a very interesting observation about Wes’s role in Angel’s dream. Dreams are usually prophetic or in some way significant in the Jossverse, so it seems entirely possible that this does indeed pre-empt Wesley’s actions in Season Three. Also, if we consider the dreams Angel has in “Soul Purpose”, it can be argued that his unconscious mind feels threatened by Wes, or, more specifically, what he represents.
Thinking about Angel on Wes’s bike, did you flash on Spike and Dawn? ;D
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Post by leftylady on Aug 1, 2005 17:29:31 GMT -5
It's true, for now, at least. It would have been interesting to see David Nabbit return in Season 5; wonder if he would have still thought them "cool demon fighters" in the glass wonderland of Wolfram and Hart... Yes, indeed. What would David Nabbit have thought about them. The idea of the pairing of brainy Nabbit and muscle Gunn brings to mind the Season 5 Gunn going for the W&H upgrade. Gunn changed and grew over the seasons but still the same dichotomy. By the way, great analysis, Erin. Well worth the wait. I've seen so much less analysis of early AtS than for BtVS that it is easy to write off Angel as having less depth. Your reviews help take my appreciation of the early seasons to a new level. |
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Post by leftylady on Aug 1, 2005 17:43:37 GMT -5
*laughing* The romantic struggles of Angel can be a little on the amusing side. I have a feeling that Wes and Cordy’s skit in “Fredless” was to some extent the writers lampooning what was, to them, an increasingly corny plot line. There is, of course, a serious side (as there tends to be in the Jossverse). The “impossibility” and tragedy of Buffy and Angel’s relationship (if we think of the conclusion to BtVS Season Two, for example) stands as a blueprint for all romantic relationships in BtVS and AtS. There is almost ludicrous tragedy everywhere. You’re absolutely right that there are more disguises/false impressions. Is that the main theme for this season, do you think? On the other hand, we gradually see people’s true self emerging. Wes, for example, becomes a more sombre figure, so that he is notably changed by the first episode of Season Three (though this may be more down to AD’s performance than the writing; I’m not certain). This relates to what you say about Cordy’s behaviour in the ep. I imagine that what we see is post-TSILA Cordy. You make a very interesting observation about Wes’s role in Angel’s dream. Dreams are usually prophetic or in some way significant in the Jossverse, so it seems entirely possible that this does indeed pre-empt Wesley’s actions in Season Three. Also, if we consider the dreams Angel has in “Soul Purpose”, it can be argued that his unconscious mind feels threatened by Wes, or, more specifically, what he represents. Thinking about Angel on Wes’s bike, did you flash on Spike and Dawn? ;D Some interesting points. I'm not too good at interrupting a quote to insert comments so I'll just do this the easy way. writers lampooning what was, to them, an increasingly corny plot line Yes indeed. And lampooning the fan's tragic-comedy obsession with the long dead romance by sections of fandom. You’re absolutely right that there are more disguises/false impressions. Is that the main theme for this season, do you think? I love that comment. Just wait til we get to Wes' turn at dis-guise "Guise Will Be Guise". Thinking about Angel on Wes’s bike, did you flash on Spike and Dawn? ;D Actually, I flashed to Spike and Angel on a bike in TGIQ. No pink helmet there, but same tone. "Hop on little mama!" Or, how about Spike and Andrew on a bike discussing flowering onions! Lots of variations on a theme in both series. We could mine them for discussion for years to come! |
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Post by Queen E on Aug 1, 2005 19:36:13 GMT -5
*laughing* The romantic struggles of Angel can be a little on the amusing side. I have a feeling that Wes and Cordy’s skit in “Fredless” was to some extent the writers lampooning what was, to them, an increasingly corny plot line. There is, of course, a serious side (as there tends to be in the Jossverse). The “impossibility” and tragedy of Buffy and Angel’s relationship (if we think of the conclusion to BtVS Season Two, for example) stands as a blueprint for all romantic relationships in BtVS and AtS. There is almost ludicrous tragedy everywhere. And yet Buffy and Angel's romance, if you pardon what at first seems insane about what I'm about to say, is actually more realistic. Because, unlike Tara, Cordy, and Fred, and much more like Oz and Willow, both had to live with the pain of knowing that person was still alive, and yet having to let go of the dream of them realistically being together in any significant way. Wes seems to touch on that with his "perfect happiness" comment in "Smile Time." Both Buffy and Angel have to live on without one another, for a million different reasons, which in some ways is harder than knowing that the reason is very simple: the person you love is dead. I could be way wrong on this, though. I think you're right on both counts, and the reason we have so much focus on "guises" is because they are slowing fall away... Wes definitely is the X factor as time goes on; he is the single most unpredictable character, for me, anyway, in either the Buffyverse or the Angelverse. So much of him is in flux that how he is going to react to a given situation is anyone's guess. Angel, on the other hand, IS very predictable, most of the time; it makes sense he would feel threatened. Perhaps that's why the Circle of the Black Thorn takes such an interest in Wes. Hee! A little bit, yeah. I love how they play with gender on AtS... |
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Post by Queen E on Aug 1, 2005 19:57:00 GMT -5
It's true, for now, at least. It would have been interesting to see David Nabbit return in Season 5; wonder if he would have still thought them "cool demon fighters" in the glass wonderland of Wolfram and Hart... Yes, indeed. What would David Nabbit have thought about them. The idea of the pairing of brainy Nabbit and muscle Gunn brings to mind the Season 5 Gunn going for the W&H upgrade. Gunn changed and grew over the seasons but still the same dichotomy. By the way, great analysis, Erin. Well worth the wait. I've seen so much less analysis of early AtS than for BtVS that it is easy to write off Angel as having less depth. Your reviews help take my appreciation of the early seasons to a new level. Wow. Thank you so much. There have been times where I've been more fond of Angel than Buffy; but that's in some ways an apples vs. oranges comparison. I think that because there is often times more of a high gloss to Angel, because certain issues are addressed again and again, and because there is not the kind of growth and development as on Buffy (since we're watching the Scoobies move from 16 to 22, which is a time of much greater flux than the ages of the Fang Gang), it often, on the surface, seems to lack Buffy's depth. But like Angel himself, you've got to dig a little deeper. Which is why I love doing these analyses (and apparently giving long-winded statements to that effect). Having you enjoy them makes me so happy! Poor Gunn. As I was watching "Time Bomb" this morning, it occurred to me that some of the issues Ellison talks about in "The Invisible Man" still plague society; Gunn represents that fairly accurately. His identity is the most in flux as any of them in late Season 4/Season 5. More later; gotta get some dinner. |
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Post by Riff on Aug 3, 2005 10:35:13 GMT -5
*laughing* The romantic struggles of Angel can be a little on the amusing side. I have a feeling that Wes and Cordy’s skit in “Fredless” was to some extent the writers lampooning what was, to them, an increasingly corny plot line. There is, of course, a serious side (as there tends to be in the Jossverse). The “impossibility” and tragedy of Buffy and Angel’s relationship (if we think of the conclusion to BtVS Season Two, for example) stands as a blueprint for all romantic relationships in BtVS and AtS. There is almost ludicrous tragedy everywhere. You’re absolutely right that there are more disguises/false impressions. Is that the main theme for this season, do you think? On the other hand, we gradually see people’s true self emerging. Wes, for example, becomes a more sombre figure, so that he is notably changed by the first episode of Season Three (though this may be more down to AD’s performance than the writing; I’m not certain). This relates to what you say about Cordy’s behaviour in the ep. I imagine that what we see is post-TSILA Cordy. Some interesting points. I'm not too good at interrupting a quote to insert comments so I'll just do this the easy way. writers lampooning what was, to them, an increasingly corny plot line Yes indeed. And lampooning the fan's tragic-comedy obsession with the long dead romance by sections of fandom. There has been quite a bit of focus on fan's concerns by the writers, though this often has a vaguely peevish contrariness (ie, we will do exactly what the fans don't want), as if to enforce ME's artistic ownership of the characters. Hmmm. No one's the boss of my imagination, though. *smiles* Wesley – Man of Mystery. I can't wait for Erin's Angelphile on that one! ;D It's true! There's a thesis there, somewhere – Hop on Little Mama: Postmodern Reflections on the Motorbike Metaphor and Sexuality in Joss Whedon's Supernatural Ouvre. |
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Post by Riff on Aug 3, 2005 10:40:00 GMT -5
*laughing* The romantic struggles of Angel can be a little on the amusing side. I have a feeling that Wes and Cordy’s skit in “Fredless” was to some extent the writers lampooning what was, to them, an increasingly corny plot line. There is, of course, a serious side (as there tends to be in the Jossverse). The “impossibility” and tragedy of Buffy and Angel’s relationship (if we think of the conclusion to BtVS Season Two, for example) stands as a blueprint for all romantic relationships in BtVS and AtS. There is almost ludicrous tragedy everywhere. And yet Buffy and Angel's romance, if you pardon what at first seems insane about what I'm about to say, is actually more realistic. Because, unlike Tara, Cordy, and Fred, and much more like Oz and Willow, both had to live with the pain of knowing that person was still alive, and yet having to let go of the dream of them realistically being together in any significant way. Wes seems to touch on that with his "perfect happiness" comment in "Smile Time." Both Buffy and Angel have to live on without one another, for a million different reasons, which in some ways is harder than knowing that the reason is very simple: the person you love is dead. I could be way wrong on this, though. I think this is more case of opinion than of being right or wrong. Bearing in mind what you've said, I think what is thrown up are the issues of hope and moving on. I suspect that the “cookie dough” comment(s) imply that both Angel and Buffy still hope they will ultimately be together. There's even a possibility of that with Oz and Willow. Is that a destructive thing? I'm not sure. If we think of fiction specifically dealing with vain hope, such as Waiting for Godot, I think we have to ask if the writer is showing that optimism is futile, or if he or she is inadvertently revealing that pessimism is cowardice in the face of disappointment. I actually admire the occasional bit of Bangel. Also, death being what it is the Jossverse, the situation with Tara, Cordy, Fred, and others is more a case of “the person you love has emigrated” than “the person you love is dead.” Actually, with Fred it is more, “the person you love is right under your nose, for pity's sake!” ;D You hit the nail on the head, as always.  Something I often wonder about is how much back story had been written for Wes when we saw him in BtVS Season Three. Was there any, at all? Was the character he became always there? I know what you mean, but I can always predict what he's going to do. Well, alright, I'm caught out sometimes, but I just say he's behaving out of character and blame the writers. ;D Seriously, I had always thought that it was Wes's obvious inner darkness the Black Thorn was interested in, but it makes sense that they also focused on his relationship with Angel and hoped Wes would betray the boss. I believe there is much in Season Five and Not Fade Away specifically to imply he did just that... ;D Yes. It's always tongue in cheek (oh, don't be so dirty-minded), like it's a game they're playing with fandom. |
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Post by Lola m on Aug 3, 2005 12:31:24 GMT -5
Some interesting points. I'm not too good at interrupting a quote to insert comments so I'll just do this the easy way. writers lampooning what was, to them, an increasingly corny plot line Yes indeed. And lampooning the fan's tragic-comedy obsession with the long dead romance by sections of fandom. There has been quite a bit of focus on fan's concerns by the writers, though this often has a vaguely peevish contrariness (ie, we will do exactly what the fans don't want), as if to enforce ME's artistic ownership of the characters. Hmmm. No one's the boss of my imagination, though. *smiles* Wesley – Man of Mystery. I can't wait for Erin's Angelphile on that one! ;D It's true! There's a thesis there, somewhere – Hop on Little Mama: Postmodern Reflections on the Motorbike Metaphor and Sexuality in Joss Whedon's Supernatural Ouvre.You must write this, Riff! It will be so stunningly good that they will pay you to come present it at the Slayage conference and we'll all get to meet you when you travel to the U.S.! ;D |
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Post by Queen E on Aug 11, 2005 16:25:35 GMT -5
I think this is more case of opinion than of being right or wrong. Bearing in mind what you've said, I think what is thrown up are the issues of hope and moving on. I suspect that the “cookie dough” comment(s) imply that both Angel and Buffy still hope they will ultimately be together. There's even a possibility of that with Oz and Willow. Is that a destructive thing? I'm not sure. If we think of fiction specifically dealing with vain hope, such as Waiting for Godot, I think we have to ask if the writer is showing that optimism is futile, or if he or she is inadvertently revealing that pessimism is cowardice in the face of disappointment. I actually admire the occasional bit of Bangel. And maybe that's the ambiquity that comes from having multiple writers, each with their own perspectives on the 'ship in question. I can't think of egregious examples of lack of continuity, but look, for instance, at how Spike is written by different authors. David Fury took a lot of heat for the way he wrote Spike (coming down more on the unredeemable; he's a vampire and his redemptive behavior in Season 5 and 6 is meaningless); Jane Espenson, Joss Whedon, or Marti Noxon might approach Spike in another way. Jane Espenson, if I remembering correctly, loved writing for Cordelia. Add the fan's perspective in the mix, and it's chaos! Well, there's that. Well, now I'm blushing. Believe me, my thumb can attest to the many times I've missed the nail. Another unknowable. I think they made good use of what we saw in Season 3; he may have been bumbling, but his willingness to sacrifice Willow for the greater good in "Choices" was built on throughtout Angel. Hee. Well, now I'm intrigued by these implications... You're getting to know me a bit too well. I enjoy the game; it amuses me. (Wow, that came out much more Illyria than I intended.) |
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) possibly foreshadowing all the dark dark Connor based arc to come. And Angel and Darla, definitely foreshadowing the immediate arc of separation from the gang - following as she leads him down W&H's garden path. 
