GUISE WILL BE GUISE: The Big Spin Zone

[Queen E]

You can post if you want to.

Or do the safety dance. It's all up to you.

[Spaced Out Looney]

Great review, Erin! There's so much stuff in this episode.

Wanted to point out one thing, though:

we get one of the first instances in the ‘verse of sex actually being a good thing.

Actually the first instance would be (if you're counting both shows as part of the same 'verse) in Teacher's Pet, with Insect Lady only going after virgins. If Xander had had sex before, he would have been safe.

[Queen E]

ehills said:

Great review, Erin! There's so much stuff in this episode.

Wanted to point out one thing, though:

we get one of the first instances in the ‘verse of sex actually being a good thing.

Actually the first instance would be (if you're counting both shows as part of the same 'verse) in Teacher's Pet, with Insect Lady only going after virgins. If Xander had had sex before, he would have been safe.

Hee! Excellent point; I was worried there might be another, hence the equivocation of "one of the first..."

I think I blocked "Teacher's Pet" out of my brain.

Thanks for commenting!

[Sara]

Another awesome review, babe. I like how you pointed out the ways in which Wesley's roleplaying serves to foreshadow the actual role he'll have on the team later in the season.

I also need to add a big eetah regarding your disappointment that because the swami wasn't the real deal it made it easy for Angel to dismiss his insights--particularly the exchange you quoted. I think one of Angel's biggest flaws throughout the series was his inability to accept that Angelus wasn't some demon that invaded his body, but in many ways the embodiment of all of Angel's worst qualities and impulses. Until he reconciled himself to that, I don't think he was ever going to truly come to terms with the sins of his past.

Terrific take on one of my favorite episodes--thanks.

[Queen E]

yorick said:

Another awesome review, babe. I like how you pointed out the ways in which Wesley's roleplaying serves to foreshadow the actual role he'll have on the team later in the season.

I also need to add a big eetah regarding your disappointment that because the swami wasn't the real deal it made it easy for Angel to dismiss his insights--particularly the exchange you quoted. I think one of Angel's biggest flaws throughout the series was his inability to accept that Angelus wasn't some demon that invaded his body, but in many ways the embodiment of all of Angel's worst qualities and impulses. Until he reconciled himself to that, I don't think he was ever going to truly come to terms with the sins of his past.

Terrific take on one of my favorite episodes--thanks.

Thanks, darling, and thank you for your awesome comments!

This was a hard one to write; a lot of the subtext was text...but in a weird kind of way, as if subtext itself was embodied by Wes, the discomfort, the identity issues, the fear of intimacy, and the nobility.

It was extraordinarily bad timing for the swami fake out...Angel was messed up enough by this point and needed someone to steady him...instead, this sent him flailing off even more...

[Lola m]

**bounce bounce bounce**

I've been waiting for you to get to this ep! ;D

Another great analysis, Erin!

For example, I had never thought of the fact that Cordy also "poses" as Angel. After all, she is an actress. Wes is also a natural in posing as someone else. After all, he's been putting on masks all his life. Dutiful son, Watcher, rogue demon hunter, etc.

Angel and Gunn are more physical outsiders, but they also have less of a need to put up a false front. They each have more deep down confidence in their own abilities than Cordy or Wes at this point in their lives.

Loved how you link up Cordy's line as she pretends to be Angel - "Oh by the way, I'm thinking of snapping on Friday" - with the reality we'll see later in the season. And very very nice catch on the parallel between Wes as the "private detective and bodyguard to the stars" and Angel in Epiphany!!

Very good point that AtS always had much more "plastic" or variation in it's characterization. Which of course is why Spike fit so well into the last season. He was always the most "stretchy" character on BtVS. Spike - the "little black dress" of characters. He'll be whatever you need him to be. ;D

Your comments about the other differences between AtS and BtVS are nicely illustrated in this episode. AtS was always more about the truly adult world, including "big business". But I especially love how you link Magnus Bryce and his spellcasting to the world of "big show business". AtS LA universe makes for a lot more grey area. Where, as you said, "emotional and psychological compromises are made all the time".

Kudos as well to the great way you summarized the real truths served up to Angel by the fake Magev. As you said:

It’s a shame that the Magev was not a real swami; it made it easier for Angel to dismiss his insights.

In dismissing the bad advice he's given, Angel also misses out on the good. Your speculation on the differences we might have seen if Angel had been involved with Cordy in Sunnydale and your questioning of how much Angelus' behavior toward Buffy was due to his feelings about Darla is well put. After all, while he had separated from Darla, he never went as far as killing her until Buffy was in the picture . . .

Very nice job, Erin!! Lots to ponder!

[Lola m]

ehills said:

Great review, Erin! There's so much stuff in this episode.

Wanted to point out one thing, though:

we get one of the first instances in the ‘verse of sex actually being a good thing.

Actually the first instance would be (if you're counting both shows as part of the same 'verse) in Teacher's Pet, with Insect Lady only going after virgins. If Xander had had sex before, he would have been safe.

;D I like that way of looking at it! ;D

[Queen E]

lolam said:

**bounce bounce bounce**

I've been waiting for you to get to this ep! ;D

Another great analysis, Erin!

Thank you, sweet Lola!

For example, I had never thought of the fact that Cordy also "poses" as Angel. After all, she is an actress. Wes is also a natural in posing as someone else. After all, he's been putting on masks all his life. Dutiful son, Watcher, rogue demon hunter, etc.

Angel and Gunn are more physical outsiders, but they also have less of a need to put up a false front. They each have more deep down confidence in their own abilities than Cordy or Wes at this point in their lives.

Excellent point about Wes; he is such a constructed being at this point, and that's what I think really bites him in the ass in the end...even as he gained more confidence in this season, he still a huge part of himself around Fred, with her "gone" he was flailing and self-destructive. As for Cordy, having lost so much of her structure will continue to make her vulnerable and in fact lead to her self-destruction. I don't think it's an accident that both of them end up dead at the end.

For all Angel's split and Gunn's later crisis of confidence, their identities remain much more stable throughout the series. Both Angel and Angelus know who they are, are such strong personalities in their own rights that integration is that much more difficult. As for Gunn, he has the "most untapped potential" as Eve later says, but he's not ashamaed of being "the muscle" until he is forced into that category.

Loved how you link up Cordy's line as she pretends to be Angel - "Oh by the way, I'm thinking of snapping on Friday" - with the reality we'll see later in the season. And very very nice catch on the parallel between Wes as the "private detective and bodyguard to the stars" and Angel in Epiphany!!

Thank you! It didn't seem accidental that she would riff on that, especially with her later line about "I could have been Angel, since Angel, kind of a girly name anyway." Couple that with the FauxMagev "There are two yous" and the mind reels in a myriad of directions.

Very good point that AtS always had much more "plastic" or variation in it's characterization. Which of course is why Spike fit so well into the last season. He was always the most "stretchy" character on BtVS. Spike - the "little black dress" of characters. He'll be whatever you need him to be. ;D

Yes. I love that: "little black dress"! And to take that metaphore further, Spike goes with anything, but at the same time is very consistent in his versalitity. Part of that is why the Scoobies have such a hard time trusting him, because of that fluidity. The problem with retaining your high school friends is that, even if they don't mean to, they box you into the identity you had at that point in your life. Xander has a hell of a time shaking the clown/slacker role, Buffy the heroine who can do no wrong and is therefore held to a higher standard role, and Willow the shy/smart sidekick role. Any variations from those lead to massive fractures in their friendships (see "Dead Man's Party"/all of Season 6). Whereas Angel, Cordy, Wes, and Gunn can be clowns, slackers, heroes, shy, smart, and everything in between and the change is (mostly) integrated into the group dynamic.

Your comments about the other differences between AtS and BtVS are nicely illustrated in this episode. AtS was always more about the truly adult world, including "big business". But I especially love how you link Magnus Bryce and his spellcasting to the world of "big show business". AtS LA universe makes for a lot more grey area. Where, as you said, "emotional and psychological compromises are made all the time".

It really struck me this time that anyone lied about who they were and slept with Xander, Willow, or Buffy, that would have been the end, or at least would have constituted high drama. When Riley was unmasked by Buffy as part of the Initiative in "Hush," it nearly nipped the relationship in the bud; later, when Riley couldn't tell the difference between Buffy and Faith-in-Buffy; more drama. Not to mention that sex is treated with much less gravitas in the Angelverse. There was no big episode of Cordy's loss of virginity, as there was for Willow, Buffy, and Xander. (I'm assuming that the events in "Expecting" wasn't her first experience; it didn't have that vibe.)

Kudos as well to the great way you summarized the real truths served up to Angel by the fake Magev. As you said:

It’s a shame that the Magev was not a real swami; it made it easier for Angel to dismiss his insights.

In dismissing the bad advice he's given, Angel also misses out on the good. Your speculation on the differences we might have seen if Angel had been involved with Cordy in Sunnydale and your questioning of how much Angelus' behavior toward Buffy was due to his feelings about Darla is well put. After all, while he had separated from Darla, he never went as far as killing her until Buffy was in the picture . . .

Very nice job, Erin!! Lots to ponder!

Yes, and I think that we don't really see the fall out from that until Angel. In fact, we don't hear anything more about Darla on Buffy after the episode of the same name, and yet she plays a pivotal role on Angel that Buffy just doesn't. Buffy may have changed Angel, but Darla created him, and that is a much stronger tie...

And thank you so much for commenting; you always get me thinking more with your cogent and intelligent responses! #bighug#

[Karen]

Erin! Terrific Angelphile of one of my favorite Angel episodes.

I loved your observation that 'the darker Angel gets and the more morally ambiguous decisions he makes, the more he pushes Cordy, Wes, and Gunn away. Not only to protect them from his darkness, but avoid seeing his darkness and disappointment in himself reflected in his friends'.

Wow! I really like that insight. That he is reflected in the people around him - and that he doesn't like what he sees.

The other thing I really liked is the foreshadowing of Wes's taking on Angels role as leader - and later on - brooding, and how you tied that in with the FG's identity crisis.

I need to pull out my DVDs and watch along with you. I read the other day where AD said that this was one of his favorite episodes in the Buffy/Angel verse. He really did shine here.

Thanks, sweetie!

[Queen E]

karen said:

Erin! Terrific Angelphile of one of my favorite Angel episodes.

I loved your observation that 'the darker Angel gets and the more morally ambiguous decisions he makes, the more he pushes Cordy, Wes, and Gunn away. Not only to protect them from his darkness, but avoid seeing his darkness and disappointment in himself reflected in his friends'.

Wow! I really like that insight. That he is reflected in the people around him - and that he doesn't like what he sees.

Thank you! So glad to see you here in this thread!

Yes, and it took me awhile to realize how deeply they were making that connection. They really layer it: the "two yous," the FauxMagev's talk of Angel being reflected in those around him, Buffy and Darla, the idea of persona and what the world sees versus the reality, and, the most subtle, Wes insisting that Virginia cover all of her mirrors, insisting that he doesn't want any intruders to know "what I really am." On the surface, that last is to protect himself from being revealed as not Angel, but not seeing yourself allows you to get away with so much more. You literally don't have to "face yourself."

The other thing I really liked is the foreshadowing of Wes's taking on Angels role as leader - and later on - brooding, and how you tied that in with the FG's identity crisis.

I need to pull out my DVDs and watch along with you. I read the other day where AD said that this was one of his favorite episodes in the Buffy/Angel verse. He really did shine here.

Thanks, sweetie!

I've always been fascinated by the use of "doubling" in both the Angel- and Buffyverse. Oftentimes, when there is another "you" wandering around, the real "you" begins to take on that behavior, as if only at that moment seeing the possibilities. Willow's sexuality and later evil actions were foreshadowed and made possible in VampWillow; SuaveXander showed Xander the possibilities of strength and success in himself, and he began to incorporate those into his personality; BuffyBot was fixated on Spike as a sex object...once Buffy impersonates her, she allows the possiblity that she could allow herself to do the same. For Wes, being Angel showed him that he in fact does have the strength and skill to lead, not just be a "secretary."

And I'm thrilled to provide any excuse for more Angel watching! Thank you again for posting!

[Lola m]

mt said:

lolam said:

**bounce bounce bounce**

I've been waiting for you to get to this ep! ;D

Another great analysis, Erin!

Thank you, sweet Lola!

You're welcome. ;D

Excellent point about Wes; he is such a constructed being at this point, and that's what I think really bites him in the ass in the end...even as he gained more confidence in this season, he still a huge part of himself around Fred, with her "gone" he was flailing and self-destructive. As for Cordy, having lost so much of her structure will continue to make her vulnerable and in fact lead to her self-destruction. I don't think it's an accident that both of them end up dead at the end.

**nods** Both Cordy and Wes were so adapt at looking like they were confident and in charge that it is easy to forget all the hints we are given over the years at the insecurity underneath.

For all Angel's split and Gunn's later crisis of confidence, their identities remain much more stable throughout the series. Both Angel and Angelus know who they are, are such strong personalities in their own rights that integration is that much more difficult. As for Gunn, he has the "most untapped potential" as Eve later says, but he's not ashamaed of being "the muscle" until he is forced into that category.

Yes! I tend to think that Gunn was manipulated into that feeling. Not only by the actual things that happened to him over the years (although that had a lot to do with it - particularly the growing rift between him and his old crew) but by W&H. They wanted him in that vulnerable place.

Thank you! It didn't seem accidental that she would riff on that, especially with her later line about "I could have been Angel, since Angel, kind of a girly name anyway." Couple that with the FauxMagev "There are two yous" and the mind reels in a myriad of directions.

**nods again**

Yes. I love that: "little black dress"! And to take that metaphore further, Spike goes with anything, but at the same time is very consistent in his versalitity. Part of that is why the Scoobies have such a hard time trusting him, because of that fluidity. The problem with retaining your high school friends is that, even if they don't mean to, they box you into the identity you had at that point in your life. Xander has a hell of a time shaking the clown/slacker role, Buffy the heroine who can do no wrong and is therefore held to a higher standard role, and Willow the shy/smart sidekick role. Any variations from those lead to massive fractures in their friendships (see "Dead Man's Party"/all of Season 6). Whereas Angel, Cordy, Wes, and Gunn can be clowns, slackers, heroes, shy, smart, and everything in between and the change is (mostly) integrated into the group dynamic.

Oh, soooo well put!! Because the scoobies all "grew up together" - especially Xander and Willow - it's much easier for them to see the constancy underneath their changes and (sometimes) understand that they are growing and maturing. As you said, that same comfortableness can also be a trap. They look at Spike and since they don't have that point of reference (plus, vampire, so, you know - evil) they see change as just fickleness or insincerity.

It really struck me this time that anyone lied about who they were and slept with Xander, Willow, or Buffy, that would have been the end, or at least would have constituted high drama. When Riley was unmasked by Buffy as part of the Initiative in "Hush," it nearly nipped the relationship in the bud; later, when Riley couldn't tell the difference between Buffy and Faith-in-Buffy; more drama. Not to mention that sex is treated with much less gravitas in the Angelverse. There was no big episode of Cordy's loss of virginity, as there was for Willow, Buffy, and Xander. (I'm assuming that the events in "Expecting" wasn't her first experience; it didn't have that vibe.)

Woah!! Really nice point. I hadn't thought about it that way before, but you're right. And it fits with the main themes for each of them. Interesting to see how by season 7 of BtVS, they were moving toward that same perspective, even as they went "back to the beginning" to bring the series full circle. It's like, back to the beginning, but seen with mature eyes.

Kudos as well to the great way you summarized the real truths served up to Angel by the fake Magev. As you said:

In dismissing the bad advice he's given, Angel also misses out on the good. Your speculation on the differences we might have seen if Angel had been involved with Cordy in Sunnydale and your questioning of how much Angelus' behavior toward Buffy was due to his feelings about Darla is well put. After all, while he had separated from Darla, he never went as far as killing her until Buffy was in the picture . . .

Very nice job, Erin!! Lots to ponder!

Yes, and I think that we don't really see the fall out from that until Angel. In fact, we don't hear anything more about Darla on Buffy after the episode of the same name, and yet she plays a pivotal role on Angel that Buffy just doesn't. Buffy may have changed Angel, but Darla created him, and that is a much stronger tie...

Yp. It's natural for Darla to have a place of importance on AtS, since it is Angel's story. And in Angel's story, Buffy is an important part, yes, but a relatviely small one when you look at the whole time span of Angel's life and unlife.

And thank you so much for commenting; you always get me thinking more with your cogent and intelligent responses!

Gosh. No, no - thank you for writing things that get my brain working. ;D

[Lola m]

Oh, and did you notice that Guise Will Be Guise is gonna be on TNT this week?

Nice timing, eh? ;D

[Queen E]

lolam said:

You're welcome. ;D

#bighug#

**nods** Both Cordy and Wes were so adapt at looking like they were confident and in charge that it is easy to forget all the hints we are given over the years at the insecurity underneath.

Yes, what's "underneath" is a HUGE deal in both the Buffy- and Angelverse; it seems akin to the "fake it until you feel it" philosophy; problem is, if something shakes you emotionally, you've got no foundation with which to deal with it. It undermines them both, most definitely.

Yes! I tend to think that Gunn was manipulated into that feeling. Not only by the actual things that happened to him over the years (although that had a lot to do with it - particularly the growing rift between him and his old crew) but by W&H. They wanted him in that vulnerable place.

Definitely. And all of them were ripe for the plucking after the events of Season 4. The strength of Gunn's sense of self, however, was evident as he took Lindsey's place in the hell dimension, and not allowing himself to be spun by the SPs anymore. One wonders if joinging the Fang Gang was a good thing for him in the long run...

Oh, soooo well put!! Because the scoobies all "grew up together" - especially Xander and Willow - it's much easier for them to see the constancy underneath their changes and (sometimes) understand that they are growing and maturing. As you said, that same comfortableness can also be a trap. They look at Spike and since they don't have that point of reference (plus, vampire, so, you know - evil) they see change as just fickleness or insincerity.

And Spike, in turn, reflects (there's that word again!) their own fickleness and insincerity and insecurities, especially Buffy. Spring hit the nail on the head when she said Spike represents Buffy's shadow self....

Woah!! Really nice point. I hadn't thought about it that way before, but you're right. And it fits with the main themes for each of them. Interesting to see how by season 7 of BtVS, they were moving toward that same perspective, even as they went "back to the beginning" to bring the series full circle. It's like, back to the beginning, but seen with mature eyes.

Wordy McWord. And it really illustrates the difference between the smallness of the community of Sunnydale, and the larger canvas of Los Angeles. So much happens every day in LA that the little epiphanies and moments get drowned out in the noise, if you will. You can also get away with a lot more, since it is easy to get "lost" there. Lorne brings up that very point as he and Angel leave Lorne's mother's house.

Yp. It's natural for Darla to have a place of importance on AtS, since it is Angel's story. And in Angel's story, Buffy is an important part, yes, but a relatviely small one when you look at the whole time span of Angel's life and unlife.

Yes! However, I don't think either of them see it that way, especially Buffy. But, then again, Angel was her first, and really is a huge determining factor in how she approaches future relationships; whereas for Angel, she's the gold standard to which he wrongly applies post-Buffy relationships...but not the only standard, by any means.

Gosh. No, no - thank you for writing things that get my brain working. ;D

Well, we both work out each other's brains, how's that?

[Sara]

mt said:

<snip for space>

Well, we both work out each other's brains, how's that?

*has sudden visual of Erin's brain spotting Lola's brain as it does bench presses*

[Queen E]

yorick said:

mt said:

<snip for space>

Well, we both work out each other's brains, how's that?

*has sudden visual of Erin's brain spotting Lola's brain as it does bench presses*

#rofl1#