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Post by Queen E on Apr 26, 2006 16:46:22 GMT -5
Are you trying to throw buckets of whitewash over my pacamac?
If not, please post away!
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Apr 27, 2006 7:37:29 GMT -5
I loved the review. Was wonderfully written and engrossing. I do have one disagreement. You wrote, "Spike’s malleability and adaptability is apparent in each flashback; they are his strength and weakness. Of these four, he is the only one whose human life was undeniably good, and therefore the one most able to retain some semblance of humanity." That is not so. The thing that attracted Angelus to Drusilla was her goodness and purity. We don't know if she could have retained some of that because Angelus drove her mad before he turned her.
However, you brought out so much that I hadn't considered, such as the imagry of Darla surrounded by the broken mirrors and how much foreshadowing is in this episode. Over all, BRAVA!
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Post by Queen E on Apr 27, 2006 11:30:10 GMT -5
I loved the review. Was wonderfully written and engrossing. I do have one disagreement. You wrote, "Spike’s malleability and adaptability is apparent in each flashback; they are his strength and weakness. Of these four, he is the only one whose human life was undeniably good, and therefore the one most able to retain some semblance of humanity." That is not so. The thing that attracted Angelus to Drusilla was her goodness and purity. We don't know if she could have retained some of that because Angelus drove her mad before he turned her. However, you brought out so much that I hadn't considered, such as the imagry of Darla surrounded by the broken mirrors and how much foreshadowing is in this episode. Over all, BRAVA! I'm sorry, I should have been more clear on that one. What I meant by that was that William's life, from what we see, was peaceful and untroubled. Dru's life, even before Angelus came along, was marred by the visions she feared made her evil. Goodness not as a moral state but a physical, social, and emotional one. So glad you enjoyed it, though! Thank you for reading and commenting!
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Post by Sara on Apr 27, 2006 21:13:44 GMT -5
Another excellent job, as always. Every time I read one of your reviews I see and make more connections between events in different seasons, and by the end I know I have a better appreciation for the recurring themes and patterns in these characters' lives. And, because it was so cool, I have to quote this part: That parallel is one I'd never noticed before, yet it seems so obvious now. Anyway, thanks for once again helping expand my appreciation of the Jossverse.
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Post by Onjel on Apr 27, 2006 21:52:46 GMT -5
I loved this! You brought out so many things that I never thought of! The parallel between the saved baby and lost family and what happens with Connor's arc was something I had never even given a thought. I loved your discussion of how preservation of beauty was paramount. I remember her saying that when she realized her syphillis came back. She wouldn't be strong and beautiful forever and she would die a bad death. She needed to be turned again to preserve her beauty and regain her strength. Without those who was she, really? One thing that came to mind when you were talking about Darla beginning to feel her soul as a human: Did her late experience as a resurrected human make her more vulnerable to feeling and sharing Connor's soul when he was in utero? Without that experience, would she have been able to stake herself for her baby's sake? That was the ultimate demonstration of a soul, if you ask me, and she knew that if she gave birth, she would lose that soul forever. I think she didn't want that and when it became apparent only her death would allow the baby to be born, she did the maternal, soulful thing. She gave her life to save her child's. Not sure what my point was, I just wanted to say it though. ;D Anyway, thank you for a wonderful review and making me think just a little more about the show I am really watching for basically the first time as a whole.
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Post by Queen E on Apr 28, 2006 0:38:02 GMT -5
Another excellent job, as always. Every time I read one of your reviews I see and make more connections between events in different seasons, and by the end I know I have a better appreciation for the recurring themes and patterns in these characters' lives. And, because it was so cool, I have to quote this part: That parallel is one I'd never noticed before, yet it seems so obvious now. Anyway, thanks for once again helping expand my appreciation of the Jossverse. Well, that is extremely high praise; I'm honored beyond words! When I was talking to you the other day about me struggling with this one, it helped me crystallize that link...I could not put my finger exactly on the deeper meaning and implications for this episode, especially since I was in "episode 7 is always significant" as well as knowing it was a crossover with "Fool for Love." In fact, it is the only crossover in which we see the same events from a different perspective; I remember how confuzzled I was in watching "Fool for Love" the first time and seeing Angel with Darla and Spike and Dru, knowing that he must have been ensouled. Seeing Darla was the "ah ha, he's searching and trying to go back to his past, but can't." I kept asking myself, if "Fool for Love" sets the stage for Buffy and Spike's "dance" as well as her flirtation with death, what is "Darla" setting the stage for? When I realized how much Team Angel "loses" as compared with the Scoobies, it hit me: the baby! Wow. That was a really long explanation. Sorry! It's definitely one of those connections one can only see knowing the whole story... Thank you so much for commenting; I love these discussions!
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Post by Queen E on Apr 28, 2006 1:34:22 GMT -5
I loved this! You brought out so many things that I never thought of! The parallel between the saved baby and lost family and what happens with Connor's arc was something I had never even given a thought. I loved your discussion of how preservation of beauty was paramount. I remember her saying that when she realized her syphillis came back. She wouldn't be strong and beautiful forever and she would die a bad death. She needed to be turned again to preserve her beauty and regain her strength. Without those who was she, really? Darla has definitely not developed beyond that point, as a vampire or as a resurrected human, in this episode. The tragedy here is that she is willing to face that, death and decay, precisely at the moment Lindsey breaks in with Darla and steals that from her. It was difficult for me to get past that in terms of Lindsey's character; I read that as him forcing his agenda for Darla, and his obsessive love for her, and making her a monster. It's telling Darla's first reaction to being turned is rage. (I can't wait to get to that episode!) Excellent thoughts on the importance of beauty to Darla; it's one of her defining tragic flaws, through her own perception of herself and others' perception of her. I think you're absolutely right! That brief glimpse of humanity informed her perspective when she was later carrying Connor, and an absolute victory for her (which, of course, was destroyed in Season 4 ). Thank you so much for commenting and for your (surely undeserved) praise!
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Post by Lola m on Apr 28, 2006 12:38:01 GMT -5
#claps# Erin!! So many wonderful "aha's" for me in this analysis.
Like others before me, I really love the insight into foreshadowing Connor's arc. "The baby is saved but the family is lost." Never thought of that link - and yet it is key, isn't it? And it even continues into season 5, when Angel selects Spike (now ensouled like him) to save the baby from the Fell Bretheren and gets to see his now integrated (even with the return of the erased memories) son happy and well. His deal with W&H has come full circle - for all the damage that was caused to the family, he really did "save the baby".
Loved loved loved your breakdown of Darla's development. The comparisons and link to "Fool for Love" I expected, but it was inspired to bring "Selfless" into the discussion. Who is Darla - what is Darla - objectification and memory loss. I can't help but think (especially as I watch the second half of season 4 again) how these issues come back to us through Cordelia.
Some more "aha" moments for me:
Most excellent, Erin!
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Post by Lola m on Apr 28, 2006 12:45:29 GMT -5
I loved the review. Was wonderfully written and engrossing. I do have one disagreement. You wrote, "Spike’s malleability and adaptability is apparent in each flashback; they are his strength and weakness. Of these four, he is the only one whose human life was undeniably good, and therefore the one most able to retain some semblance of humanity." That is not so. The thing that attracted Angelus to Drusilla was her goodness and purity. We don't know if she could have retained some of that because Angelus drove her mad before he turned her. However, you brought out so much that I hadn't considered, such as the imagry of Darla surrounded by the broken mirrors and how much foreshadowing is in this episode. Over all, BRAVA! I'm sorry, I should have been more clear on that one. What I meant by that was that William's life, from what we see, was peaceful and untroubled. Dru's life, even before Angelus came along, was marred by the visions she feared made her evil. Goodness not as a moral state but a physical, social, and emotional one. So glad you enjoyed it, though! Thank you for reading and commenting! Thanks for clarifying that, Erin. It kind of meshes with all the little thoughts I had been percolating in my head. Like, William/Spike is the one who keeps the most amount of himself - of his "goodness" or just plain "Williamness" when turned. Much of Drusilla's self was first tormented by her visions (including what everyone around her believed about them being bad - so that she also came to believe it) and then tormented by Angelus (and Darla). Much of her "Drusillaness" was already stripped away by the time she was turned. William turned himself into Spike by hiding Willaim away. Dru had much of her humaness driven away by others. And as you point out, Darla did not have much "self" to lose.
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Post by Lola m on Apr 28, 2006 12:47:31 GMT -5
I loved this! You brought out so many things that I never thought of! The parallel between the saved baby and lost family and what happens with Connor's arc was something I had never even given a thought. I loved your discussion of how preservation of beauty was paramount. I remember her saying that when she realized her syphillis came back. She wouldn't be strong and beautiful forever and she would die a bad death. She needed to be turned again to preserve her beauty and regain her strength. Without those who was she, really? One thing that came to mind when you were talking about Darla beginning to feel her soul as a human: Did her late experience as a resurrected human make her more vulnerable to feeling and sharing Connor's soul when he was in utero? Without that experience, would she have been able to stake herself for her baby's sake? That was the ultimate demonstration of a soul, if you ask me, and she knew that if she gave birth, she would lose that soul forever. I think she didn't want that and when it became apparent only her death would allow the baby to be born, she did the maternal, soulful thing. She gave her life to save her child's. Not sure what my point was, I just wanted to say it though. ;D Anyway, thank you for a wonderful review and making me think just a little more about the show I am really watching for basically the first time as a whole. Ooooh, now there is a very interesting idea. I can really see that. That her recent time as a human was factor in her being moved to do what she did to save Connor at his birth. Neat!
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Post by Queen E on Apr 28, 2006 20:13:37 GMT -5
Erin!! So many wonderful "aha's" for me in this analysis. Like others before me, I really love the insight into foreshadowing Connor's arc. "The baby is saved but the family is lost." Never thought of that link - and yet it is key, isn't it? And it even continues into season 5, when Angel selects Spike (now ensouled like him) to save the baby from the Fell Bretheren and gets to see his now integrated (even with the return of the erased memories) son happy and well. His deal with W&H has come full circle - for all the damage that was caused to the family, he really did "save the baby". Yes, and Connor ends up being his enduring legacy, regardless of what happened in that alley. Although, the Jossverse "blended" family, which fell apart, reformed, fell apart, and reformed on the Hellmouth on "Buffy", paid the ultimate price on "Angel." Perhaps, though, the Angelverse...well, this takes some thinking, but perhaps Angel's ultimate arc is to transcend his own past, and his own issues. Not through the Shanshu, but through his actions. When he killed his own father, Darla told him, essentially, that who we were informs what we become. (There's that word again!) She pinpoints his murder of his father as an act of love, and tells Angelus that his father, in this constant battle, was the victor. He can never put his son down again, but he can never praise him or see what he has changed into. Getting past that might be the essence of Angel's "shanshu." As long as Connor survives and thrives, Angel has achieved his greatest victory, has not allowed the sins of the father to infect the son. Why, thank you! It occurred to me that Darla and Anya were "lost" in the same way, either defining themselves or allowing themselves to be defined as a thing: "I am vengence," "I am a whore," etc rather than as a person. Anya was Olaf's girlfriend, and then "vengence," and then "the Mrs." Darla was a prostitute and then the Master's "dear one," and then Wolfram and Hart's plaything. It was the name thing that tipped me off; we never do learn what Darla's real name is, and Anya seems to have no recollection of being Aud. (Which is a delightful play on names...) See, now my heads all big with these compliments! I'm thrilled you enjoyed it and I always look forward to the Lola perspective!
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Post by Queen E on Apr 28, 2006 20:22:15 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I should have been more clear on that one. What I meant by that was that William's life, from what we see, was peaceful and untroubled. Dru's life, even before Angelus came along, was marred by the visions she feared made her evil. Goodness not as a moral state but a physical, social, and emotional one. So glad you enjoyed it, though! Thank you for reading and commenting! Thanks for clarifying that, Erin. It kind of meshes with all the little thoughts I had been percolating in my head. Like, William/Spike is the one who keeps the most amount of himself - of his "goodness" or just plain "Williamness" when turned. Much of Drusilla's self was first tormented by her visions (including what everyone around her believed about them being bad - so that she also came to believe it) and then tormented by Angelus (and Darla). Much of her "Drusillaness" was already stripped away by the time she was turned. William turned himself into Spike by hiding Willaim away. Dru had much of her humaness driven away by others. And as you point out, Darla did not have much "self" to lose. And that's not far off from what most sensitive and artistic humans do; hide those parts away beneath a facade to protect themselves from those who don't understand or would mock them for it. It fits very well with the moment that he was turned; heart on his sleeve, he was roundly mocked and rejected...who'd want to live with that for eternity? He could have been like Dalton, and remained the bookish and sensitive lad, but would he have survived with Angelus and Darla if he had? It would be interesting, too, to contemplate how much of the essential Drusilla remains beneath the madness. If one could conceivably strip that away, what would she be like? Because madness, too, can be a form of protection, one would think... Here's another question...Darla should have, with that little sense of self, that same quality that Spike does of "what do you want me to be?" and yet she is remarkably consistent in her responses. The outfits can change, from schoolgirl to kimono, but Darla remains the same. Do you think that's because what little sense of self she has is "Darla the vampire"?
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Post by Lola m on Apr 28, 2006 21:29:00 GMT -5
Thanks for clarifying that, Erin. It kind of meshes with all the little thoughts I had been percolating in my head. Like, William/Spike is the one who keeps the most amount of himself - of his "goodness" or just plain "Williamness" when turned. Much of Drusilla's self was first tormented by her visions (including what everyone around her believed about them being bad - so that she also came to believe it) and then tormented by Angelus (and Darla). Much of her "Drusillaness" was already stripped away by the time she was turned. William turned himself into Spike by hiding Willaim away. Dru had much of her humaness driven away by others. And as you point out, Darla did not have much "self" to lose. And that's not far off from what most sensitive and artistic humans do; hide those parts away beneath a facade to protect themselves from those who don't understand or would mock them for it. It fits very well with the moment that he was turned; heart on his sleeve, he was roundly mocked and rejected...who'd want to live with that for eternity? He could have been like Dalton, and remained the bookish and sensitive lad, but would he have survived with Angelus and Darla if he had? It would be interesting, too, to contemplate how much of the essential Drusilla remains beneath the madness. If one could conceivably strip that away, what would she be like? Because madness, too, can be a form of protection, one would think... Here's another question...Darla should have, with that little sense of self, that same quality that Spike does of "what do you want me to be?" and yet she is remarkably consistent in her responses. The outfits can change, from schoolgirl to kimono, but Darla remains the same. Do you think that's because what little sense of self she has is "Darla the vampire"? Very likely, I would think. And it might also fit with her background perhaps? That she built her first facade as a prostitute and is, to some extent, keeping up the mask because that is all she knows?
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Post by Karen on Apr 30, 2006 18:36:49 GMT -5
Loved your review, Erin - and the discussion here from everyone. Thank you!
This is probably a dumb question, buy why Becoming, Part 4?
It's been so long since I watched this episode (I rewatched last night), that I had forgotten that the “hell” Darla went to was “nothing” but silence and darkness. What a contrast to Angel's hell of endless torment.
I liked your explanation of why she didn't burn from the weight of centuries of religion and guilt. I forgot that she was from the New World - and essentially without a religious background.
It's interesting to me how Darla and Spike didn't feel guilt as deeply when ensouled - or maybe I should say 'shame' from their deeds. Spike because he had a good soul when he was human, and Darla maybe because she hadn't fully developed her soul?
As we'll see later, Angel will gain her trust and she begins to open herself up to love. And as you pointed out - she was furious when Drusilla turned her - furious to have the remnants of that feeling that Angel brought out in her - the love? Just as Angelus felt when Buffy made him feel love as Angel? Or were they furious because it was taken away from them?
I loved how you pulled out these foreshadowings. Excellent!
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Post by Queen E on May 1, 2006 14:25:59 GMT -5
Loved your review, Erin - and the discussion here from everyone. Thank you! This is probably a dumb question, buy why Becoming, Part 4? Oh, because hers was the fourth "becoming" story we see in the combined Buffy-/Angelverse. First Angel, then Dru (on Angel), then Spike, and finally Darla. Thank you; that seemed significant that she was the only American of the bunch, so to speak. That, I think, is definitely an element; however, I think, too, that there would have been a certain degree of "the world owes me," similar to Faith, that I think she felt would have justified her actions. I think for Darla it was both; but what Lindsey did was steal from Darla her best moment, when she'd accepted that she would die and that it would be OK. Angel's too; he was denied the chance to be at her side at that moment. Angelus seemed thrilled that he couldn't feel love; he would have been more upset by its presence rather than its absence, I think... Thank you! And thank you so much for commenting; I love these discussions!
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