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Post by Queen E on Oct 8, 2006 21:31:02 GMT -5
Insightful thoughts and oodles of praise are welcome. Also, silliness and downright insanity will be tolerated.
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Post by Lola m on Oct 13, 2006 7:46:29 GMT -5
Ok - after getting distracted by your previous analysis for a while, I got back to my notes on this new one!
First off - I think I like your opening paragraphs best of all, because of the way you got at the emotional, gut-response and the big picture, larger meaninf of the whole series. I remember watching this ep the first time too and you really feel it, when Darla hits that moment of understanding. It has a power similar to one of my favorite Darla moments - when she stakes herself so that Connor can live. And then, you do the thing that makes these analyses, not just episode review. Give us an after-the-fact, thoughtful exploration with a larger scope. I can't tell you how much I loved:
It's where Jasmine's plot begins - it's a signpost pointing right to the CEO's office at W&H.
Also really liked the way you broke down the motivations behind the main triangle of Angel, Darla, and Lindsey. Angel and Darla more fluid, Lindsey "fixed" in his definition of Darla and his obsession that is really more about himself than anyone else. I think I particularly liked it because it would be easy to simply declare Angel and Lindsey on exact opposite sides with Darla in the middle and go no deeper. In other words, to paint Angel's actions as equally obsessed and motivated by his own issues rather than Darla's. And, yes, there is an element of this for Angel. But you go deeper, showing that Angel is asking Darla to examine her own life and beliefs and feelings - aksing her to figure things out herself, even while truly loving her and wanting to "save" her, just as much as Lindsey. Two quotes that really got to the point for me were:
I may have more thoughts later, but I wanted to get these first reactions out there while they were fresh in my head.
Brava again, Erin!
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Post by fish1941 on Oct 13, 2006 11:31:47 GMT -5
I never understood Angel's decision in the series finale. And I have never approved of it, even to this day. It doesn't matter to me what Lindsey had done or what he could have done in the future. Killing him in cold-blood was inexcusable and downright murder. I have noticed that humans have a tendency to find a reason to excuse their acts of violence.
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Post by Shan on Oct 13, 2006 11:38:26 GMT -5
I never understood Angel's decision in the series finale. And I have never approved of it, even to this day. It doesn't matter to me what Lindsey had done or what he could have done in the future. Killing him in cold-blood was inexcusable and downright murder. I have noticed that humans have a tendency to find a reason to excuse their acts of violence. Understanding doesn't necessarily equate to approving. Hence, I think, the heartbreak.
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Post by fish1941 on Oct 13, 2006 11:40:31 GMT -5
I never understood Angel's decision in the series finale. And I have never approved of it, even to this day. It doesn't matter to me what Lindsey had done or what he could have done in the future. Killing him in cold-blood was inexcusable and downright murder. I have noticed that humans have a tendency to find a reason to excuse their acts of violence. Understanding doesn't necessarily equate to approving. Hence, I think, the heartbreak. I hope that you are right.
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Post by Queen E on Oct 13, 2006 11:46:26 GMT -5
I never understood Angel's decision in the series finale. And I have never approved of it, even to this day. It doesn't matter to me what Lindsey had done or what he could have done in the future. Killing him in cold-blood was inexcusable and downright murder. I have noticed that humans have a tendency to find a reason to excuse their acts of violence. Well, not to be persnickety, but Angel wasn't human. Semantics aside, though, Shan said it best; my understanding of that decision does not mean that I approve of it. In the context of the story, however, I felt it was well within Angel's character to do that. Do I think he would have done that in Season 2? No. But, after everything that happened in Seasons 3 and 4 and 5 as a result of that decision? Definite yes.
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Post by Queen E on Oct 13, 2006 12:07:48 GMT -5
Ok - after getting distracted by your previous analysis for a while, I got back to my notes on this new one! First off - I think I like your opening paragraphs best of all, because of the way you got at the emotional, gut-response and the big picture, larger meaninf of the whole series. I remember watching this ep the first time too and you really feel it, when Darla hits that moment of understanding. It has a power similar to one of my favorite Darla moments - when she stakes herself so that Connor can live. And then, you do the thing that makes these analyses, not just episode review. Give us an after-the-fact, thoughtful exploration with a larger scope. I can't tell you how much I loved: It's where Jasmine's plot begins - it's a signpost pointing right to the CEO's office at W&H. You know, it always bothered me that we never really went back to the tri-books the Gang found in Pylea. At least, until I started rewatching...because now I think that those books indicated less to the Fang Gang and more to the viewer; as you said, "a signpost." Even if the humans who worked there were destroyed by her, she ended up dead and they were still in operation. They, of course, would consider that collateral damage, a phrase which just turns my stomach. Also? Thanks, Lola. Dude. I like your fresh thoughts. The more I watch these episodes, the more I see that, in Season 2, Angel came closest to integration. In "School Hard," Angel describes Spike: "Once he starts something he doesn't stop until everything in his path is dead." Which I've never really thought is a very accurate description of Spike at all. Not that Spike wasn't into the mayhem and bloodshed ("fists and fangs"), but then he'd see something shiny and get distracted. Angel's description strikes me as a wee bit of projection on his part; Angelus is the one who is really implacable. In this episode, and in the episode leading up to it, we really see that implacability again...nothing can distract him from Darla. Yet that narrow focus is focused outward; not on serving his own agenda for the sake of himself, but serving his own agenda for the sake of Darla (his agenda, of course, being "save the girl"). Is it entirely selfless? Probably not. Yet, in the final analysis, it really is about Darla, and bringing her to where she needs to be. Had he not gone through the trials, Darla still would not have understood. It's interesting, too, that Angel claims to not love Darla and Lindsey claims that Lindsey does love her. It's this honesty on Angel's part that really pushes it more into the realm of "selfless." Later, though, when he is unable, again and again, to stake her...that has everything to do with Angel and very little to do with what Darla wants or needs. To stake her would be the final defeat. I think my thoughts might be getting a little stale now. More later...
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Post by leftylady on Oct 13, 2006 17:27:45 GMT -5
Ok - after getting distracted by your previous analysis for a while, I got back to my notes on this new one! First off - I think I like your opening paragraphs best of all, because of the way you got at the emotional, gut-response and the big picture, larger meaninf of the whole series. I remember watching this ep the first time too and you really feel it, when Darla hits that moment of understanding. It has a power similar to one of my favorite Darla moments - when she stakes herself so that Connor can live. And then, you do the thing that makes these analyses, not just episode review. Give us an after-the-fact, thoughtful exploration with a larger scope. I can't tell you how much I loved: It's where Jasmine's plot begins - it's a signpost pointing right to the CEO's office at W&H. You know, it always bothered me that we never really went back to the tri-books the Gang found in Pylea. At least, until I started rewatching...because now I think that those books indicated less to the Fang Gang and more to the viewer; as you said, "a signpost." Even if the humans who worked there were destroyed by her, she ended up dead and they were still in operation. They, of course, would consider that collateral damage, a phrase which just turns my stomach. Also? Thanks, Lola. Dude. I like your fresh thoughts. The more I watch these episodes, the more I see that, in Season 2, Angel came closest to integration. In "School Hard," Angel describes Spike: "Once he starts something he doesn't stop until everything in his path is dead." Which I've never really thought is a very accurate description of Spike at all. Not that Spike wasn't into the mayhem and bloodshed ("fists and fangs"), but then he'd see something shiny and get distracted. Angel's description strikes me as a wee bit of projection on his part; Angelus is the one who is really implacable. In this episode, and in the episode leading up to it, we really see that implacability again...nothing can distract him from Darla. Yet that narrow focus is focused outward; not on serving his own agenda for the sake of himself, but serving his own agenda for the sake of Darla (his agenda, of course, being "save the girl"). Is it entirely selfless? Probably not. Yet, in the final analysis, it really is about Darla, and bringing her to where she needs to be. Had he not gone through the trials, Darla still would not have understood. It's interesting, too, that Angel claims to not love Darla and Lindsey claims that Lindsey does love her. It's this honesty on Angel's part that really pushes it more into the realm of "selfless." Later, though, when he is unable, again and again, to stake her...that has everything to do with Angel and very little to do with what Darla wants or needs. To stake her would be the final defeat. I think my thoughts might be getting a little stale now. More later... Nothing stale about your thoughts, Erin. I love how you pull all the plot and thematic threads together, Joss and company wove them throughout so subltly that I marvel at how you untangle them for us. leftylady
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Post by Queen E on Oct 13, 2006 18:37:15 GMT -5
You know, it always bothered me that we never really went back to the tri-books the Gang found in Pylea. At least, until I started rewatching...because now I think that those books indicated less to the Fang Gang and more to the viewer; as you said, "a signpost." Even if the humans who worked there were destroyed by her, she ended up dead and they were still in operation. They, of course, would consider that collateral damage, a phrase which just turns my stomach. Also? Thanks, Lola. Dude. I like your fresh thoughts. The more I watch these episodes, the more I see that, in Season 2, Angel came closest to integration. In "School Hard," Angel describes Spike: "Once he starts something he doesn't stop until everything in his path is dead." Which I've never really thought is a very accurate description of Spike at all. Not that Spike wasn't into the mayhem and bloodshed ("fists and fangs"), but then he'd see something shiny and get distracted. Angel's description strikes me as a wee bit of projection on his part; Angelus is the one who is really implacable. In this episode, and in the episode leading up to it, we really see that implacability again...nothing can distract him from Darla. Yet that narrow focus is focused outward; not on serving his own agenda for the sake of himself, but serving his own agenda for the sake of Darla (his agenda, of course, being "save the girl"). Is it entirely selfless? Probably not. Yet, in the final analysis, it really is about Darla, and bringing her to where she needs to be. Had he not gone through the trials, Darla still would not have understood. It's interesting, too, that Angel claims to not love Darla and Lindsey claims that Lindsey does love her. It's this honesty on Angel's part that really pushes it more into the realm of "selfless." Later, though, when he is unable, again and again, to stake her...that has everything to do with Angel and very little to do with what Darla wants or needs. To stake her would be the final defeat. I think my thoughts might be getting a little stale now. More later... Nothing stale about your thoughts, Erin. I love how you pull all the plot and thematic threads together, Joss and company wove them throughout so subltly that I marvel at how you untangle them for us. leftylady Wow! That is high praise indeed. Thank you, leftylady! The man did like to weave those threads, that's for sure. I think I like this "analyzing after it's over" thing best; it's a nice way to look back and see how everything played out, or, in some cases, didn't. Plus, you know, I get to talk about "Angel." No bad there!
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Post by leftylady on Oct 14, 2006 15:05:08 GMT -5
Nothing stale about your thoughts, Erin. I love how you pull all the plot and thematic threads together, Joss and company wove them throughout so subltly that I marvel at how you untangle them for us. leftylady Wow! That is high praise indeed. Thank you, leftylady! The man did like to weave those threads, that's for sure. I think I like this "analyzing after it's over" thing best; it's a nice way to look back and see how everything played out, or, in some cases, didn't. Plus, you know, I get to talk about "Angel." No bad there! Just like Joss hopes there will always be a Buffy, may there always be an Angel! ... and a Spike too! leftylady
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Post by Queen E on Oct 15, 2006 15:44:06 GMT -5
Wow! That is high praise indeed. Thank you, leftylady! The man did like to weave those threads, that's for sure. I think I like this "analyzing after it's over" thing best; it's a nice way to look back and see how everything played out, or, in some cases, didn't. Plus, you know, I get to talk about "Angel." No bad there! Just like Joss hopes there will always be a Buffy, may there always be an Angel! ... and a Spike too! leftylady Word, my friend. Long live Angel and Spike, in all their prettiness and complexity!
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Post by fish1941 on Oct 16, 2006 13:29:57 GMT -5
I don't understand. Are you saying that Angel and Lorne can be excused for Lindsey's death, because they are not humans?
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Post by Karen on Oct 16, 2006 14:00:30 GMT -5
I don't understand. Are you saying that Angel and Lorne can be excused for Lindsey's death, because they are not humans? Oy... In that you took out the "winking smiley", I think you know quite well that that was an attempt at levity. Also - having an understanding of Angel's decision doesn't equal agreeing or approving it, like Erin stated. Lovely review, Erin. When I get more than a minute to myself, I'll come back and comment further. It's my favorite episode, btw. Probably because of the self-sacrificing Angel part of it - for whatever reason, out of guilt or a truly self-less desire to set things right, it set Angel up a notch in my mind. Of course, the heartbreaking ending is also part of why I like the episode so much, too, and part of the reason why I understand why Angel took out Lindsey in the end.
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Post by Queen E on Oct 16, 2006 14:31:55 GMT -5
I don't understand. Are you saying that Angel and Lorne can be excused for Lindsey's death, because they are not humans? Well, I'm really not sure how much more clear I can be that "understanding does not mean approval." Not to mention that the rest of my post I feel really underscored that point. I think it might be best to drop the subject at this point, as I don't think I can make it any clearer and will just end up repeating myself ad infinitum.
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Post by Queen E on Oct 16, 2006 15:02:52 GMT -5
I don't understand. Are you saying that Angel and Lorne can be excused for Lindsey's death, because they are not humans? Oy... In that you took out the "winking smiley", I think you know quite well that that was an attempt at levity. Also - having an understanding of Angel's decision doesn't equal agreeing or approving it, like Erin stated. Lovely review, Erin. When I get more than a minute to myself, I'll come back and comment further. It's my favorite episode, btw. Probably because of the self-sacrificing Angel part of it - for whatever reason, out of guilt or a truly self-less desire to set things right, it set Angel up a notch in my mind. Of course, the heartbreaking ending is also part of why I like the episode so much, too, and part of the reason why I understand why Angel took out Lindsey in the end. Hee! Thanks for that; I really think that in terms of how we've seen Angel's character development, his actions in "Not Fade Away" are very much in line with that, as is Lindsey's blindness in not anticipating that it would happen. As for this episode, I think we really got to see Angel, from "Dear Boy" to "The Trial" move from his very narrow obsession with Darla into an obsession with helping her. Which is progress, of a sort.
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