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Post by Techno-bot on Jun 13, 2004 21:05:52 GMT -5
Written by Douglas Petrie Directed by Bruce Seth Green Air Date: 10/19/99
Oz arrives in L.A. with a ring from Buffy which must be kept from Spike at all costs - and which would allow Angel to walk in the light of day.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jul 7, 2004 18:57:01 GMT -5
from the Casefiles book:-
They write out the Spike speech in full. Everyone loves that speech. Also "we're usually laconic"
Rachel, Angel's first 'paying' client, is also the first client who stiffs him. She wont be the last.
Angel's duster has to be replaced after the torture thing.
the weaponry section is fun- Marcus uses hot pokers, sunlihgt, and 'The Pear' torture device on Angel. Cordelia and Doyle aim crossbows at Spike. Oz saves the day with his deus ex van-icus
As Scene in LA "[The pier where the climactic battle between Angel and Marcus was filmed] is Paradise Cove. It's out towards Malibu, and it's north of Topanga Boulevard, it's almost up by Zuma Beach. That particular pier is a private beach that you can only get to by paying money. We bought acess to the beach and the parking lot and everything so we were able to control it a lot more. They originally wanted to shoot that at Santa Monica Pier, but one of the things about locations is, sometimes you ahve to be realistic. Controlling Santa Monica Pier, and throwing someone off the pier, and shooting under the water, you have to work within a certain budget and time frame, so Santa Monica Pier was just going to be too much." -Kevin Funston, Locations manager.
The Pen is Mightier Final Cut Spike's first appearance in the script is described in the stage directions: Now we see who this narrator isL It's SPIKE. Perched high overhead on a rooftop ledge, looking down on the alley like some living gargoyle. Having the time of his life.
Doyle's appartment is described int he script as: It is, almost literally, the bachelor pad from hell. Piles of laundry, crushed beer cans, and take-out food cartons lie scattered about, mixed in with some supernatural knickknacks: a goat's skull, black candles, books.
We actually see a human skull, but not a goat's. And Iberia by James A Michener, seen on Doyle's bookshelf, is a fine nonfiction book about Spain but possibly a little out of Doyle's usual range of reading material.
describing Marcus's torture paraphenalia: Marcus opens a battered old trunk filled with torture implements- among them we may see a cat's paw, a breast ripper, a heretic's fork, "the Pear", etc
Theres also a listing of all the Batman references but that isnt episode specific. Theres many.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 7, 2004 19:22:28 GMT -5
First, just gonna throw out two shallow Lola-specific happy bits, then I promise I'll get to the real notes. 1. Spike pretty.2. Should we just call this ep "gay subtext 101" and be done with it? ******************************** Ok. Out of the shallow pool and into the diving area. On to the themes and the aha's and all that. So, one theme was addiction, duh, 'cuz like most of the characters talked about addiction or displayed an addiction, etc. First, there's Rachael (using the now default spelling ) the pretty little blonde (what a surprise) thing in the alley with an addiction to her "druggy stalker boyfriend". Druggy. So, there's another addiction. Spike talks about Marcus' addiction and says "we all have them". Spike says that Angel's addiction is to Buffy. Doyle provides us with our first hints that his betting issues are not all behind him. Doyle says that Angel is addicted to brooding. And, actually, now that I think about it, Angel's whole stated reason for not keeping the gem - that by using it he might forget to help the "people in the dark" - could be read as his fear of becoming "addicted" to the things the ring would bring him. Course, I also think he doesn't want to use the ring is because he's afraid it would make him happy. Too happy, if ya get my drift. But really, my big question about this episode has always been, why doesn't Spike just torture Angel himself? Why hire anyone else at all? (I mean I know why in the script, because the bad guy needs to be even eviler than they were making Spike be by then and also gets dusted at the end and they weren't gonna kill off Spike.) But, in the context of the show, why not do it himself? Issues with actually torturing his "sire" that much? (Writers still have him calling Angel that for this season.) Lingering familial affection for the dysfunctional vamp family that is no more? A general attitude of "hire the best"? Hmmmm. Lola
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jul 7, 2004 20:04:13 GMT -5
First, just gonna throw out two shallow Lola-specific happy bits, then I promise I'll get to the real notes. 1. Spike pretty.2. Should we just call this ep "gay subtext 101" and be done with it? its *Angel*. We can call the whole show gay subtext 101. Or as I've seen on LJ icons, 'the other gay supremacy hour'. And the most obvious Doyle addiction- the drinking. At any excuse or none. Drink issues are big in the vampire show. addiction is a theme that runs right through, but it is close to the surface in this one. Oz doesnt show addiction at all. Or Cordelia. Which since everyone else does seems significant. Angel pisses him off too easily and too much. He didnt want to stake Angel, just get the information out of him. He knew Angel knew all the buttons to push to pull a martyr without giving up the information. So to achieve his goal, had to get someone with more patience and less issues in. Also Angelus is famous for the torture too so Spike had to just show him up as not the best. Also also I think Spike's never been much for the torture before. Dru liked it, but I dont think we saw Spike play. plus, of course, huge great many layered family issues, and the whole love/hate thing. is fun.
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Post by Matthew on Jul 7, 2004 21:14:44 GMT -5
First, just gonna throw out two shallow Lola-specific happy bits, then I promise I'll get to the real notes. 1. Spike pretty.2. Should we just call this ep "gay subtext 101" and be done with it? ******************************** Ok. Out of the shallow pool and into the diving area. On to the themes and the aha's and all that. So, one theme was addiction, duh, 'cuz like most of the characters talked about addiction or displayed an addiction, etc. First, there's Rachael (using the now default spelling ) the pretty little blonde (what a surprise) thing in the alley with an addiction to her "druggy stalker boyfriend". Druggy. So, there's another addiction. Spike talks about Marcus' addiction and says "we all have them". Spike says that Angel's addiction is to Buffy. Doyle provides us with our first hints that his betting issues are not all behind him. Doyle says that Angel is addicted to brooding. And, actually, now that I think about it, Angel's whole stated reason for not keeping the gem - that by using it he might forget to help the "people in the dark" - could be read as his fear of becoming "addicted" to the things the ring would bring him. Course, I also think he doesn't want to use the ring is because he's afraid it would make him happy. Too happy, if ya get my drift. But really, my big question about this episode has always been, why doesn't Spike just torture Angel himself? Why hire anyone else at all? (I mean I know why in the script, because the bad guy needs to be even eviler than they were making Spike be by then and also gets dusted at the end and they weren't gonna kill off Spike.) But, in the context of the show, why not do it himself? Issues with actually torturing his "sire" that much? (Writers still have him calling Angel that for this season.) Lingering familial affection for the dysfunctional vamp family that is no more? A general attitude of "hire the best"? Hmmmm. Lola I've always had the impression that torture just isn't Spike's "thing." It could be because that was what Angel was so into, back in the Fanged Four days, but I doubt it: I think that it's just a part of his nature. I think that it's part "I got bored": all tigger and energy: he doesn't have the patience to take his time in a torture scenario like that. He does have the patience, actually, but it's more oriented towards the pleasure than the pain. I can see him engaging in lovemaking for ten hours, to draw out every ounce of pleasure in the experience for himself and his partner, but torture, for the same amount of time? I just don't get the impression that he would enjoy inflicting pain as much. He lets Dru torture Angel, but doesn't really engage in it himself.. And it's part.. it's not sporting. Spike has always loved an unfair fight, prefferably with himself on the short end of the stick. Makes him feel... alive. Having someone bound and tortured is about the antithesis of this. Granted, there are the times when he railroad spiked those asshats who gave him his name, but hey: 1) revenge 2) over quickly.
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Post by Rachael on Jul 7, 2004 21:24:49 GMT -5
So. . .
Spike's voiceover in the teaser is, of course, hilarious, but this line is particularly striking: "Love and a pesky curse defanged me." Which is almost exactly what's gonna happen to him, starting with chipping in a few episodes, all the way through Season 6. The mirroring between Spike and Angel throughout the episode is interesting to watch.
Okay. . .Spike didn't know what the Gem of Amara looked like, but both Doyle and Angel recognized it on sight?
Gay subtext? This is text, people. Three times, minimum, in three episodes, we have "Angel is/might be gay" explicitly stated.
I wondered the same thing about Evil Dr. Green - why not do the torture himself, why hire it out? I'm not sure I buy any of the proffered explanations - I think they needed a vampire to get the ring, go out and be dangerous, and get killed, and so they made a new one.
Oz has a really emotional moment, for Oz: "I hear you, but which one? They all tend to specialize in humans." There's almost panic in his voice. Only Willow has ever made him sound like that, ever, before.
I love how L.A. people don't really react to: hit-and-run, guy bursts into flames, fight under the pier with one guy ending up dead. Just another day at the beach. ;D
I'm still with Doyle on this - the self-flagellation. I think that if Angel wants to work for forgiveness (this is what he said; not redemption, this time, but forgiveness), that's great, but - he'd have a better chance at succeeding if he'd allow himself some happiness. For me, the Gem is the first in a series of examples of Angel letting no light into his life, at all, and ultimately I think that's what results in the Big Dumb Plan in the long run.
He stays in the dark, on purpose, and he is not a balanced individual.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jul 7, 2004 21:59:22 GMT -5
In the Dark. Spike. Oz. Spike impersonating Angel. Oz with crossbow. Spike catching fire. Angel getting tortured. Angel catching fire. Oz babbling- with many words- about how pale Angel is. I love this episode. So, now to watch it with my brain on and all paying attention. On AtS we have Angel impersonated by Spike and Wes. On BtVS we had Buffy impersonated by Faith in that body swap thing. Angel did body swap too. Its about what the essence of a character is independent of their physical self. People impersonating them to be funny is more about how other characters see them. But also not exactly because its also about putting them down, and if they werent up why would they need to? Opens on- nice scary blue light with running blonde. Obviously Angel is going to charge to the rescue. She's all fluffy and blonde and pink and dishevelled. With the submissive down movements and head tilts. And the bad guy is all dressed in black and leather and being creepy and probably on something. "Who's gonna hear? No one who cares." Angel to the rescue! Also dressed in black and being scary, but for a good cause. You classic little bit of heroism. So of course... mockery now Spike wearing the red shirt. and everything else black (of course) (I love the speech. Everyone loves the speech. We mostly have memorised the speech.) For viewers who just started with Angel how do we know Spike is evil? Well, theres the smoking, always a handy indicator. "And oh yeah, your grusome horrible death." subtle clue Spike also with the black nail varnish and eyeliner. Oz face while driving looks so serious. makes me giggle kinda for balance. Oz with the spikey band round his wrist. I've mentioned before that Oz tends to have stuff round his wrists. Like restraints. Cordelia in a nice red top being all enthusiastic. Also has beads round her wrist, and a watch on. Practical timepiece. Doyle is kinda sprawled out there. Legs all wide and one up on the sofa and kinda half lying down and just generally comfortable and stretched out. Owns the place like. Also, ring on his left hand, middle finger. Cordy has a shiny round her neck. Little oval dangly. Doyle has an actual second coat. This one is black. Yet greatly resembles the shabby shape of the brown one. Big wide collar. I have very little fashion sense yet my reaction to that coat is 'goodwill'. The shirt is blue. So Doyle is all black and blue today? Bruises? Why? also still a chain goes beneath shirt. Doyle: “All I’m saying is that if we’re ever going to take that cruise to the Bahamas together, we’re going to need a lot more clients of means.” Cordy: “And an alternate reality in which you are Matthew McConaughey.” Doyle making his intentions fairly clear, Cordy responding in kind. and then Oz walk into the office: “Hello, LA.” because to Sunnydale Oz these people represent LA? *eyebrow raised* Or because Oz doesnt know the other guy and is being inclusive? And Cordy's way enthusiastic reaction. Way way way more enthusiasm than she ever showed for anyone back in Sunnydale when she lived there. This is not cool calm bitchy Queen C, this is Cordelia starved for a friendly face. Theres actual hugging. Oz reaction to this is kinda funny. Doyle reaction is also noteable- not best pleased at all. Slaps him down then goes to hug the new guy. Ouch. Oz has the green shirt with red letters. Rock 98? All the meaning I've ever got out of his shirts is Oz=musician. But he is nicely color coordinated with Cordy. "Are we done?" "Completely." LOL. Cordy just realising how over the top she's being and winding down sort of, well, closer to embarrassed than she is used to being. Can you imagine if Oz was a more expressive type though? Like fan reunions, with the hugs and the squealing and all. This is so not that. Oz blue trousers. Coordinates with everyone. This is Oz being enthusiastic though. You can tell cause theres actual expressions. Oz and Angel. Totally the opposite of the squealing. "No, we're usually laconic." See I know better than to try and drink while I watch this cause this line has me snorting *every* time. The timing and everything, its just *perfect*. Doyle and Angel recognise the Gem by sight, but Spike, who researched enough to find it, didnt know it when he saw it. Handy. I cant tell if Angel is wearing two layers or a black top with a grey collar. I think two layers cause the grey shows around the bottom too. Doyle changing the topic away from Buffy. huh. Little green and gold ring. Pretty shapes. Oz shirt now looks bluer and Doyle shirt now looks like with green bits. Lighting makes a big difference. "This is one of those times when I should just shy away from the topic, isn’t it?” Cordelia discovers tact? Woah. "Why don’t you put it on and I’ll stake you. It’ll be fun!” Doyle's idea of fun is disturbing... Doyle and Cordy leave, Oz hangs around until told to go. Looks a bit odd. But I guess C & D are technically employees and Oz is just Oz. Oz notices stuff and cares. But its moments like this that show it, rather than words. Angel's flat is all kinds of pretty. Looks like an oven on the wall? Something metal with a door. And the sewer access of course. Pretty and practical. Okay, pretty if you like bricks and weapons. Which I do. So. Tunnels are nice too. Matching. And with more of that spooky blue light. And then outside with the blue sky and gold bricks, much contrast. New day new clothes. Cordy in orange and maybe grey. Doyle back in brown, with some nasty layering. Doyle's ring is a claddaugh, crown towards him. significance? well its Irish, every Buffy viewer recognises it, and would associate it with Angel so rings=connection theory still working. But heart out means Doyle not in love with anyone. Like wearing an 'I'm available' sign? Or just to mean friendship. quoting the relevant bit from Surprise- Angel: My people -- before I was changed -- they exchanged this as a sign of devotion. It's a claddagh ring. The hands represent friendship, the crown represents loyalty... and the heart... Well, you know... Wear it with the heart pointing towards you. It means you belong to somebody. Like this.so ring for friendship loyalty love is what Doyle is wearing. significance. Angel in grey and black with all his muscles showing, doing the lookit sweaty shiny dance. Yeah, I know, martial meditation. Angel pulls on something long sleeved as well as the coat. Also doesnt notice Spike at all until *wham* Spike is vamp faced soon as we see him. At his strongest to confront his sire. But he whumps him instead of staking him, and with Angel all unknowing he could have got staked easy. So theres the practical reason, needs the ring, but theres fun emotional subtext layers too. Especially since Angel doesnt seem to be trying to stake Spike neither. Angel vamps after quite a bit of fighting. So Spike winds him up to it, but not instantly. "This isnt over until one of us is a pile of dust, mate." and not even then. Note, "mate", Brit colloquialism for friend, used often to mean the exact opposite (as in here, you call someone mate in a way that indicates they're about to get hurt). But also, one of a matched pair. Someone you live with, as in flatmate. Or a spouse, or the act of mating. I'm not pushing the slash agenda. It gets so much clearer than this I don't have to. But it is a very layered word.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jul 7, 2004 21:59:48 GMT -5
"He can't come in." "But he can burn the place to the ground." Thing is, over on BtVS that just never comes up. Angel more grown up, darker, more logical. That little trickle of blood from Angel's mouth, the hard swallowing, and I think actual breathing- Angel all worked up. Doyle's flat, orange, beige, green, blue, purple, just a big mess of colors. Mostly orange and green. Rather ghastly high contrast patterns, just like his shirts. I'm vaguely wondering if his color vision works the same way as humans. I mean if it didnt then he might like the patterns and not notice the colors. But I think its meant to be just terminally outdated tat. I think one of the books on his shelf is called BOOK. Huh. They arent in focus so I'm not sure, but looks like Marines and maybe The Pentax Way, which apparently could be a photography instruction book. Why yes I looked it up on Amazon, because these are the important things to know about a guy. All his books are big and shiny, they arent a matched set, they all look modern, and they seem to be about stuff like travel and photography. This tells you useful stuff. Also his research method is to call a whole bunch of people and ask them stuff. Doyle is people who know people, connections guy, part of the world in a big if shabby way. But not in a friendly way. Having to hang up on people he owes money too, makes it unlikely they're friends. Says yet more about him very quickly. I like Angel's little dance around the sunlight. "You call him." Angel *totally* understands this. I'm thinking Darla. Is it sort of Darla? Angel actually does know people and have a lot of understanding but he usually seems to ignore it. He makes more of an effort around little blonde women. I love the little springy stakes thing. They're just so cool. Angel's shirt is that dark color the ebay site calls red. So, just a tiny hint of red in the black. Its difficult to figure much from Angel's clothes because they have so much black, but I figure the data is in the not-black parts. So, red, means he's going to get wound up about something. 'Pay Inside' on the door? Interesting. I like Spike's belt. Just a plain belt but the shiny draws the eye. New day, not new clothes. Still brown and sort of green on Doyle. And it being his place he could have got changed if he felt like it. "Wind in his hair..." with the camera on the chains. Angel in chains. I'm pausing for the happy. Its not that I hate Angel, but he screams so pretty. Nice dramatic silhouette of Spike, with the light in the distance and Spike all dark. Sunlight around but not helpful. Shiny world outside, bad torture place in here. And its just a regular warehouse place. Ordinary world, very bad things in it. Leaning in to whisper "and other nasty things" in Angel's ear Angel all wound up. Spike really good at annoying him. The casefiles said Angel's duster got trashed when he got tortured, but he isnt wearing it. It just dissapeared before they put the chains on. "Do you two need to be alone?" *giggles* "How's that for perversion?" heh, Spike, little does he know... "Sire." Dru turned him, Angel made him. Spike looks seriously dead in this lighting. Repetition. Same thing over and over and over. themey? madness. "She is cute when she's hurting" so, Spike, calling him names about what? "she’s cuter when she’s kicking your ass.” Indeed. Spike ends up agreeing. "Now *that's* music." Angel has all this rattly kitchen stuff. For why? He drinks blood from the refrigerator. Not a single utensil required. All that to prepare food for his friends? Big dusty wall oven thingy closer up. Very unused looking. "It’s through the pain that we find the truth of who we are." That strikes me as Jossian truth. find Innocence. Presence of episode title. The one where Angelus comes back. Everything he is running from. Why he wont use the ring. Spike's expression when he finds Cordy and Doyle, it looks like delight. Surprised delight. Lookit, people standing up to him! yaay! "He's having the living hell tortured out of him." Spike, still delighted. Doyle, shocked hurt and scared. Tiny little reaction moment that says volumes about how he feels about Angel. Cordy glances to Doyle, but Doyle keeps staring at Spike. Cor looking for support, Doyle knowing better than to take his eyes of an enemy. Back to the torture. The light that was hurting Angel before has moved away behind him. Passage of time. "I want... forgiveness." well, its a bloody obvious truth really. But I guess its all part of establishing poor broody tortured Angel. This is what tortures him, more than stupid bald blokes. "In the end you won’t feel guilt – or remorse – or anything but pure darkness. In the end – the ring, the past – none of it will mean anything anymore. You’ll be free." Having seen an end, I'm thinking he couldnt be more wrong. All with the guilt. But also with the darkness. Spike's fingers go inside the torturer's shirt. This is a disturbing new detail to notice. No groping the torturer! Grope the pretty Angel instead! Spike grabs some pliers and gives a hand. Now Angel is loud. So Spike does do some of the torturing, but off screen.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jul 7, 2004 22:00:08 GMT -5
Can see more of the chain Doyle wears, but still not what dangles. Can see that it has a dangle. Now it bugs me. Um, you could tell, huh... Doyle's coat is bugging me too. The black thing he was wearing earlier looks absolutely exactly like this brown thing, only the brown is more beat up and he wears it enough I think of it as being what he always wears. Doyle is always covered up to the wrist (well, always I can think of right now, and always so far). This, with the demon transformation, would be why. On the practical level, how much he usually covers means only small areas to makeup. On an emotional level, Doyle hides every inch of himself except face and hands, hands because needed and face because covering that gets you more attention, and he wants less. He covers in multiple layers. Hides his body. Because he doesnt like it, methinks. And he so often wears the coat indoors, even in his own flat. Armour. "You got to get lucky sometimes." "I could hug you!" Doyle arms "You’re not that lucky." which is just mean, cause a hug wouldnt cost her any. can see the dangly. It is round and black, like the chain. And could still be almost anything. Well, it definitely isnt a cross. Cordy isnt doing very well with the confident and threatening. She was better in the Slayerfest. Angel in chains- significantly slacker than before. He's all saggy and exhausted and practically kneeling. In order to be that saggy without all his weight being on his arms they must have lowered the chains a good six inches. Well, I guess torturing the actors for art can only go so far. Oz "Spike" with the crossbows gods I love that moment that just rules its right up there with chainsaws and 'I'd like to test' with the all time great entrances. Oz blue van licence California 2IDW407 2 IDs? For wolf man? Spike just isnt as good at people as he thinks. I *love* Spike's rant too. Big complicated plan and what does he get? And it takes him a couple seconds in the sun to figure it out. I'm giggling uncontrollably. I so, so love that bit. Funniest. "I really hope they kill each other." Nah, where would be the fun in that? He'd miss Angel if someone else killed him. I love the way the sunglasses work with the vamp face so well. Thats just nicely done. Oz drives really well. Swings that van around like a stunt man Oz glasses crossbow happy meep Oz so rules And right to the heart. I love a guy who can shoot straight. Angel's human torch act. I guess it must have seemed too limiting to have a hero who couldnt go out in the sun. So how do you fix it? Magic ring? Or just show how he would get it done no matter what the cost? I love in storytelling terms that they didnt go with the magic ring. Oz all grey in a track and field shirt. I get no meaning from that but the shirt fits real well. Nice use of pier beams to hide stuntguy face, but you still get a clear view if you pause in the middle of this fight. Nice dusting too. Left hand middle finger for the gem. Ozbabble. Incredibly pale. ;D because that needed repeating. Actually makeup guy said that he stopped getting extra pale when he had his own show, so I guess having a character comment on how pale he is cemented that idea even once it sort of stopped being true. aaawww, lookit little children all smiley! Saved the day! Woohoo! heh, yes, the cheap heartstrings just really dont work for me. 'OME' 'avings' sign actually I think you can just see the H and S if you squint and play with the contrast. Big 'Home Savings' sign against the sunset. Real subtle. Angel has his duster again. So the casefiles book is wrong. Doyle and Angel having the quiet personal moments on the roof. Not Cordy, even though he has known her longer. I said from a storytelling point of view I was glad they didnt go with the ring. My opinion of Angel's choice in that regard is very different. It was stupid. Plain stupid, and kinda selfish. He could use the ring to be better able to help people. He would rather go with the easy option. Yes easy, because he isnt afraid of the fighting and all, he is afraid of life getting too easy for him. He is afraid of not hurting himself enough to get redemption. And possibly he is afraid of living forever. He did try and suicide once. Maybe he doesnt like the idea of being unkillable. And his other reason, the one about 'they have help', is the part he ignores in season 5. And his big dumb plan doesnt fix that neither. So to be less tempted he throws the thing away, but just a few years later, all with the temptation. And with the ring he could have saved Doyle. Which I'm sure occurs to him in all those long brooding sessions. So, Angel annoys me. but the writers who made him do it I like. Logical consistency, thats my motto... Still, I like the very end of this. "I had a nice day.", then obviously realising how stupid that was to say. Doyle/Angel watching the sunset together, and then Angel admitting weakness to Doyle, that he would have cracked. Closeness already, real close. "How is your mom?" Does Angel *ever* ask about anyone's family ever again? And he knows Doyle's mother to give her up? Has Doyle been bringing him home to meet the family then? Love that part. 3230 words.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jul 7, 2004 22:08:27 GMT -5
Gay subtext? This is text, people. Three times, minimum, in three episodes, we have "Angel is/might be gay" explicitly stated. Often and often people say to his face Angel is gay, and always Angel is entirely fine with that. Not a single defensive statement. Just quibbling who they think he's dating. Thinking he's with Wes, all good. Thinking he's with Groo, not good at all. Oz actually has quite a lot of words in this episode. For Oz. We see him react a lot. Is fun. eetah eetah eetah
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Post by Lola m on Jul 8, 2004 5:40:16 GMT -5
In the Dark. Spike. Oz. Spike impersonating Angel. Oz with crossbow. Spike catching fire. Angel getting tortured. Angel catching fire. Oz babbling- with many words- about how pale Angel is. I love this episode. Oz babbling is just so . . . funny, but also odd. And about paleness. Which, I mean, pot - meet kettle. I was wondering about the fact that this ep's "opening monster" isn't a demon or monster for a change. It's a human guy - a bad druggy stalker abusive gun toting boyfriend guy - but still just a guy. So, maybe it's our hint that this client and her problem will not be the main "demon" that Angel fights this ep - that'll be Spike and Marcus? And I can see that it's an important aspect of pointing out the "addiction" theme. Oh yeah, *sigh sigh swoon swoon* Ok. Shallow moment there. Sorry. Back to the actual thoughts. Cute last tag line from the radio Oz is listening to just before he turns it off. "It's 11:05. Do you know what your karma is?" Perfect for Oz. And not that far off for Angel, either, eh? I keep noticing all these matching themes for Cordy from BtVS season 1 and AtS season 1. And they all point to Cordy being so much more insecure and lost than I ever imagined when I first watched the show. And still a bit naive, too, at least about some stuff. She doesn't even realize that people don't always pay their bills?! Ya know, I think those are just 2 perfect sentences about Oz. Cordy's kinda enjoying her own bit of mini-torture of Angel, tho', isn't she? There's just a bit of deliberate knife twisting about Buffy, several times, before she cuts herself off. Well, it . . . disturbed . . . me, all right. Take that however you want. Plus, it made me think of Buffy saying to the muggers "come on, rush me, it'll be funny". Me too. Yep. Lots of history, lots of layers to the whole tangled web between Angle and Spike (and Dru and Darla, for that matter). Lola Whew. I keep bouncing back and forth between all the eps to comment on. Firefly and Buffy and Angel, oh my. But I still have so many pages of notes. Too much to say (well, that was true a long time ago for me. ) Too little time. Argggh. *grapple grapple*
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jul 8, 2004 22:28:25 GMT -5
Oz babbling is just so . . . funny, but also odd. And about paleness. Which, I mean, pot - meet kettle. Exactly. funny. Princess Cordy living in her castle, never have to worry about money cause its always just there. Like maid service. In high school, Cordelia is good at being popular. But she isnt yet queen of the school, just of the year group. And being the social climber she is she doesnt just stay in her yeargroup. She tries dating older guys. Who turn out to want to sacrifice her to the snake in the basement. So, dating, not so much a safe activity, and Cordy knows she gets out of her depth once she is out of her school. By the time she is a senior, she doesnt quite rule any more. Not unchallenged. It wasnt just the time Buffy ran for the same title and the other girls got it, it was Harmony the sheep being able to put her down and get away with it, even if that wasnt for long. And popularity just isnt secure anyway. If you ever dont put in the work, it all goes away. Very insecure little world, and she already knows its a *little* world. So, she has this whole identity based on being rich and socially powerful, and by the time school is over that has already crumbled. She puts a lot of work into maintaining the facade, but from her side of it, she knows its fake. Then she moves to LA. She doesnt know anything. She says things that show how little she knows. She cant keep up with fashion, even though it stays so important to her. She isnt just a small fish in a huge great pond, she's more like a tadpole in the ocean. And she knows it. One of the things I loved watching once Wes was introduced was that Cordy and Wes had a very similar journey from insecure identities based on what their parents gave them to secure identities based on what they themselves had achieved, and by the end of those journeys they shone. That was really great to watch. Of course then we had to see them do not so great things to Cordelia, but her season 5 return just put her back to the good place, so I think of it all leading up to there. Strong, confident, loving woman.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 11, 2004 9:03:42 GMT -5
"He can't come in." "But he can burn the place to the ground." Thing is, over on BtVS that just never comes up. Angel more grown up, darker, more logical. That little trickle of blood from Angel's mouth, the hard swallowing, and I think actual breathing- Angel all worked up. I definitely noted that, even tho’ Spike still has his humorous moments here (after all, Spike is used very effectively for comic relief in Buffy season 4), Angel and crew definitely understands him to be a serious threat. Angel is afraid for the gang’s safety, for his safety. But then, how do we explain Xander? Huh. Good analogy catch. I was all caught up in the pretty Spike silhouette and then we see his face, ummm. . . . Anyway. Yeah. Also, interesting that we see Angel getting all violent to try and find Spike, beating up and intimidating folks, etc. While Spike seems to just . . . let himself get found. Except of course, for once, it was a plan, a trap, of his that actually worked. Hee! over all the lines that are gonna have a very different (still funny) spin after we see more eps and how life changes for Spikey. Also love the quotes that show us the differences between Marcus and Spike. Like: Marcus: “His skin…” Spike: “Annoying isn’t it? Still attached.” Marcus: “Over 200 years of living and so little external damage. - What about internal?” Spike: “Do you two need to be alone, or can we go on to the ouchy part?” Also, Marcus just putting his hand over Angel’s heart and knowing “He’s known love.” Wonder if he knew that about Spike, too. Spike always with the impatience. Like Matthew pointed out, I do get the impression that Spike - not so good with the torture, at least not long drawn out torture. Not his forte. Oddly enough, I would tend to think that Marcus and Angelus have a lot more in common. Not in the child molester thing, of course, but in the cooler, calmer, deliberate way they do harm to someone. The “internal”, as Marcus puts it. When he says “Creatures with souls have something to lose” – very disquieting moment. Oh, and, Spike? Very pretty. Just thought I’d bring that up in case anyone forgot. Oh, yeah. He brings the pain, but each time we learn a bit more. The whole Spike & Cordy & Doyle scene is just lovely. Spike once again starts off with a compliment to Cordy (he just can’t stop himself!) but this time she doesn’t let it distract her. Yup. Keeping your eye on the real threat is an important skill that many in the Jossverse need to acquire. Also, Angel has played along with Marcus to try and lure him close enough to stake him. I mean, he was also saying pretty much the truth, but what better than the truth to lure someone like Marcus in. Pretty sure that’s the real reason Marcus was so mad. Not that Angel tried to stake him, but that he messed with Marcus’ little head games. Plus, for all his lack of planning and so on, Spike always seems to be there when he needs to, doesn’t he? Marcus is good, yeah, but it’s Spike that sees Angel is gonna stake him and stops it. Lola
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Post by Lola m on Jul 11, 2004 9:28:40 GMT -5
<snip> Doyle is always covered up to the wrist (well, always I can think of right now, and always so far). This, with the demon transformation, would be why. On the practical level, how much he usually covers means only small areas to makeup. On an emotional level, Doyle hides every inch of himself except face and hands, hands because needed and face because covering that gets you more attention, and he wants less. He covers in multiple layers. Hides his body. Because he doesnt like it, methinks. And he so often wears the coat indoors, even in his own flat. Armour. Fits well with the stuff we see later about the issues he has over his demon half. Mmmmmm. Giles with a chainsaw. Niiiiiiice. OK. Back again. Just cracks me up – all these lines and bits showing how they all know each other from Sunnydale. Makes you wonder what Doyle thinks of it all. And Doyle calls Spike a dog. Huh. Lots of dog / puppy comparisons for Angel and Spike (well and Oz, too, naturally) throughout both series. Clever, clever, be. I’m also amazed at the talent of JM here. ‘Cuz he even does his patented Spike swagger, but makes it funny. Just a slight difference here, a little exaggeration there, and it makes the scene. But we also know he can do the swagger and be very very real and scary. Or very very very sexy. Also interesting that Oz is the one that listens to Angel instead of continuing to insist he get medical help. I mean, hey – vampire, people! With the supernatural healing and all. Course, Oz would probably have more insight into that than Cordy. And Doyle is all about the repression of his demon side. That’s my take on it. Gotta take the ring himself in order to defeat Marcus and get away. But then the joy when he is able to walk in the sun and the broody torture when he will give it up. I agree. Otherwise, why bother to have your hero be a vampire at all? Worth every word, be. Lola
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Post by Linda on Aug 5, 2004 2:15:38 GMT -5
Hi All! Great posts, becca'liz, Lola, Matthew & Rachael! Maybe someday, I will skip ahead and manage to participate in realtime... In the meantime, I just wanted to say that I *love* reading your posts. <snip> I'm still with Doyle on this - the self-flagellation. I think that if Angel wants to work for forgiveness (this is what he said; not redemption, this time, but forgiveness), that's great, but - he'd have a better chance at succeeding if he'd allow himself some happiness. For me, the Gem is the first in a series of examples of Angel letting no light into his life, at all, and ultimately I think that's what results in the Big Dumb Plan in the long run. He stays in the dark, on purpose, and he is not a balanced individual. I see where you all are coming from. And from a practical standpoint, I kinda agree. But I also think that the decision was a highly symbolic one, a mission statement for the show, and perfectly in character. (The guy is *so* consistent.) This is what I thought when I saw Angel take off the ring: Hey! Where's the claddaugh ring? In which case, I think this ring is meant to be a substitute symbol of his relationship with Buffy. And he is reiterating his decision to stay away from her and remain on his own. When he tells Doyle his reasons for destroying the ring, he mentions that the daylight people already have help (Buffy). It's the weak ones in the dark that need it. And if he stayed in the light (with Buffy), he wouldn't see them anymore. The mission statement (in the beginning, anyway) for the series. Also: In her Spikecentricity analysis on The Harsh Light of Day, Spring makes a strong case that the ring represents Buffy's love. And Spike's search for it, among other things, foreshadows a lot of their Season Six relationship. (Poor Spikey: Here, Buffy takes it away from him and gives it to Angel...) When the ring crosses over to AtS, what does Angel do at first? He refuses to wear it (because of the temptation) and then, after a glorious hour in daylight, he crushes it in order to remain where he is to *earn* his forgiveness, because the ring only *looks* like redemption. (A mini IWRY arc in 3 minutes. Huh.) Oh, and question: Angel wants forgiveness. From whom? God? Buffy? Everyone he's ever wronged? Sounds like an endless quest to me. Linda, but the main point of the episode: mmm...Spike... ;D
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