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Post by KMInfinity on Jul 12, 2005 22:08:23 GMT -5
The eternal Cordy motto: “We can't keep secrets from each other.” See, they HAD to make her dead for Season 5, 'cause if she'd been there, she'd've been way too practical to let any of what happened, happen. Big Agree here. I sure missed Cordy thru Season 5 but Season 5 with Cordy would have been a totally different story, not just a matter of fitting her character into the existing plots. It is always interesting to see the episodes in S1 where Cordy is warring with herself over morality. Her concern over superficialities, her indignance over the fact that Angel Investigations wasn’t really run for profit, , and especially her belief that AI was merely a short term detour on her way to some grand fate somewhere else – ironic and bittersweet and simple , in a good way. I really think this episode marks a fundamental shift in Cordy, beyond the passing of the visions. I guess the big issue in Hero is the question Karen alluded to – what would AtS have been with Doyle on board thru much/most/all of the series? I have friends who think the best parts of Angel were those first tentative steps towards defining the show – with Doyle as the best foil for Angel ever. And I know people who think the show only “took off” once Wesley and Gunn were on board. (And one soul who thinks everything pre-Fred is pretty much a waste of time.) I tend to feel a sense of anticipation when I watch the episodes following Hero, waiting for the cast to jell – maybe in Epiphany, after the team breaks up for that bit? But there’s still a bit of wistfulness for what-might-have-been with Doyle, and that videotape taps into that sense superbly. Re-using it in You’re Welcome was brilliant.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 13, 2005 12:39:41 GMT -5
The eternal Cordy motto: “We can't keep secrets from each other.” See, they HAD to make her dead for Season 5, 'cause if she'd been there, she'd've been way too practical to let any of what happened, happen. Big Agree here. I sure missed Cordy thru Season 5 but Season 5 with Cordy would have been a totally different story, not just a matter of fitting her character into the existing plots. It is always interesting to see the episodes in S1 where Cordy is warring with herself over morality. Her concern over superficialities, her indignance over the fact that Angel Investigations wasn’t really run for profit, , and especially her belief that AI was merely a short term detour on her way to some grand fate somewhere else – ironic and bittersweet and simple , in a good way. I really think this episode marks a fundamental shift in Cordy, beyond the passing of the visions. I guess the big issue in Hero is the question Karen alluded to – what would AtS have been with Doyle on board thru much/most/all of the series? I have friends who think the best parts of Angel were those first tentative steps towards defining the show – with Doyle as the best foil for Angel ever. And I know people who think the show only “took off” once Wesley and Gunn were on board. (And one soul who thinks everything pre-Fred is pretty much a waste of time.) I tend to feel a sense of anticipation when I watch the episodes following Hero, waiting for the cast to jell – maybe in Epiphany, after the team breaks up for that bit? But there’s still a bit of wistfulness for what-might-have-been with Doyle, and that videotape taps into that sense superbly. Re-using it in You’re Welcome was brilliant. I'm much like you - I enjoy watching all the changes that AtS moved through. Each change, each addition (or subtraction) made its own unique stamp on the show. But wondering how Doyle would have affected and been affected by those changes . . . well, it's an intriguing thought. As you said, a wistful thought, but intriguing. Because my first thoughts always revolve around two main points. How would Cordy have been affected by not receiving the visions? And how would Angel be affected by continuing to have Doyle's friendship? His very specific encouragement to engage with humanity and that link from shared "demon heritage".
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Post by Queen E on Jul 13, 2005 13:23:05 GMT -5
Trivia stumper for the day:
What scene in "Hero" was part of the unfilmed script "Corrupt"?
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Post by Rachael on Jul 13, 2005 18:08:46 GMT -5
I also was thinking about how we get another example of Angel being referred to someone special, someone "chosen", like Buffy. So, the demons think he is the “promised one” - but really, it's Doyle who saves them. So does that mean Doyle was the "promised one"? I mean, Angel didn't recognise this as a prophesy about him, so . . . I sorta view all prophesies with a jaded eye nowadays - but if we assume this prophesy was accurate, then - yeah, Lola, it had to be about Doyle. I agree. It's interesting - in this episode we have three "Chosen Ones" - Doyle, who was chosen by the PTBs to carry the visions, Angel, also Chosen by the PTBs for a redemptive struggle, and Cordy, chosen, by, well, Doyle, to continue his work. On BtVS, people tended to have choices, and decide whether or not to fight the fight. Xander, Willow, Anya, Tara, Spike...all had to choose their battle against evil. The obvious exception to this was Buffy and other Slayers - they had no choice. (I'm speaking here not of the choice to fight - because clearly everyone always had the option of walking away, even Buffy. But...it's more about the choice to be a soldier for good, in a way. Buffy was "chosen". Xander chose.) Whereas - none of the AtS fighters, save possibly Gunn, really chose their paths for themselves. Angel and Doyle and Cordy are all on various paths of redemption, and the initial choice to become what they were was taken from them (Cordy is debatable - but she certainly didn't have a choice about those visions.) Fred, too - was forced into her first step down that path, in a truly unavoidable way. Wesley - may have chosen, but I don't view his upbringing as presenting any real options in his mind. It's interesting, especially since both finales show the heroes making a choice - to fight or not to fight. But only in BtVS do I get the sense that the choice was really - a choice.
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Post by Rachael on Jul 13, 2005 18:10:25 GMT -5
(And one soul who thinks everything pre-Fred is pretty much a waste of time.) Make that two. Okay, I don't go that far, but I LOVE everything that came after Fred. I really enjoy a lot of what came before, and find some of it tedious.
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Post by Pixi on Jul 14, 2005 6:33:48 GMT -5
The eternal Cordy motto: “We can't keep secrets from each other.” See, they HAD to make her dead for Season 5, 'cause if she'd been there, she'd've been way too practical to let any of what happened, happen. Big Agree here. I sure missed Cordy thru Season 5 but Season 5 with Cordy would have been a totally different story, not just a matter of fitting her character into the existing plots. It is always interesting to see the episodes in S1 where Cordy is warring with herself over morality. Her concern over superficialities, her indignance over the fact that Angel Investigations wasn’t really run for profit, , and especially her belief that AI was merely a short term detour on her way to some grand fate somewhere else – ironic and bittersweet and simple , in a good way. I really think this episode marks a fundamental shift in Cordy, beyond the passing of the visions. I guess the big issue in Hero is the question Karen alluded to – what would AtS have been with Doyle on board thru much/most/all of the series? I have friends who think the best parts of Angel were those first tentative steps towards defining the show – with Doyle as the best foil for Angel ever. And I know people who think the show only “took off” once Wesley and Gunn were on board. (And one soul who thinks everything pre-Fred is pretty much a waste of time.) I tend to feel a sense of anticipation when I watch the episodes following Hero, waiting for the cast to jell – maybe in Epiphany, after the team breaks up for that bit? But there’s still a bit of wistfulness for what-might-have-been with Doyle, and that videotape taps into that sense superbly. Re-using it in You’re Welcome was brilliant.I agree. I think that footage took a really good show - You're Welcome - into greatness. I mean that was a great moment in a poignant, funny, bittersweet, important show. It tied everything together in my opinion. I guess I'm in the cast gelled during Epiphany group. Those are the episodes I enjoy watching. I liked early Cordy - don't get me wrong, she's a terrific character with all kinds of layers from Buffy even when she was more superficial - but the Cordy who found her purpose while still being Cordy was my favorite. I detested her Saintly versions. Talk about character assassination.
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Post by Queen E on Jul 14, 2005 14:02:09 GMT -5
Nobody guessed the correct answer to yesterday's trivia question: What scene in "Hero" was originally part of the unfilmed script, "Corrupt"?
Answer: The "commercial" Cordy and Doyle film.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 14, 2005 19:49:12 GMT -5
Pretty or sweet or touching pics from Hero.
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Post by Queen E on Jul 15, 2005 9:58:17 GMT -5
Today's trivia question is:
What movie does Cordy reference when she's trying to cover for Doyle's vision in the hallway?
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Post by Karen on Jul 17, 2005 16:57:36 GMT -5
Today's trivia question is: What movie does Cordy reference when she's trying to cover for Doyle's vision in the hallway? I just had a chance to rewatch "Hero". "Mask" and "The Man with 2 Brains". Is that cheating? ;D
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Post by Lola m on Jul 17, 2005 17:50:08 GMT -5
Today's trivia question is: What movie does Cordy reference when she's trying to cover for Doyle's vision in the hallway? I just had a chance to rewatch "Hero". "Mask" and "The Man with 2 Brains". Is that cheating? ;D Rewatching is never cheating. Heck, it's just the right thing to do. ;D
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Post by Lola m on Jul 17, 2005 18:01:03 GMT -5
I also was thinking about how we get another example of Angel being referred to someone special, someone "chosen", like Buffy. So, the demons think he is the “promised one” - but really, it's Doyle who saves them. So does that mean Doyle was the "promised one"? I mean, Angel didn't recognise this as a prophesy about him, so . . . I sorta view all prophesies with a jaded eye nowadays - but if we assume this prophesy was accurate, then - yeah, Lola, it had to be about Doyle. I agree. It's interesting - in this episode we have three "Chosen Ones" - Doyle, who was chosen by the PTBs to carry the visions, Angel, also Chosen by the PTBs for a redemptive struggle, and Cordy, chosen, by, well, Doyle, to continue his work. Meant to comment on this before and got sidetracked by life. I love the way you phrased this. Deciding to stay, deciding to continue fighting - we see this many times. I mean, my first thought is of examples from season 7: Xander not wanting to take Dawn and himself out of the fight, Dawn casting the deciding taser vote; Anya deciding to turn human again and stay; Spike offering to leave if that will make the others safer, but staying because he is still needed; etc. But I also think back even to season 3, when Willow and Buffy are talking about college - each with a possibility of taking a different path, leaving. Buffy with an unheard of chance because of the existance of a second slayer; Willow's opportuinities to choose virtually any school. I've alwasys loved Willow's explanation of why she's staying and going to school in Sunnydale. **nods** I think it all has to do with the different overall theme or arc of AtS. Redemption and recovery. Which have such a more . . . I guess I'd call it more of an inevitable feel.
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Post by Linda on Jul 21, 2005 7:49:46 GMT -5
Big Agree here. I sure missed Cordy thru Season 5 but Season 5 with Cordy would have been a totally different story, not just a matter of fitting her character into the existing plots. It is always interesting to see the episodes in S1 where Cordy is warring with herself over morality. Her concern over superficialities, her indignance over the fact that Angel Investigations wasn’t really run for profit, , and especially her belief that AI was merely a short term detour on her way to some grand fate somewhere else – ironic and bittersweet and simple , in a good way. I really think this episode marks a fundamental shift in Cordy, beyond the passing of the visions. I guess the big issue in Hero is the question Karen alluded to – what would AtS have been with Doyle on board thru much/most/all of the series? I have friends who think the best parts of Angel were those first tentative steps towards defining the show – with Doyle as the best foil for Angel ever. And I know people who think the show only “took off” once Wesley and Gunn were on board. (And one soul who thinks everything pre-Fred is pretty much a waste of time.) I tend to feel a sense of anticipation when I watch the episodes following Hero, waiting for the cast to jell – maybe in Epiphany, after the team breaks up for that bit? But there’s still a bit of wistfulness for what-might-have-been with Doyle, and that videotape taps into that sense superbly. Re-using it in You’re Welcome was brilliant. I'm much like you - I enjoy watching all the changes that AtS moved through. Each change, each addition (or subtraction) made its own unique stamp on the show. But wondering how Doyle would have affected and been affected by those changes . . . well, it's an intriguing thought. As you said, a wistful thought, but intriguing. Because my first thoughts always revolve around two main points. How would Cordy have been affected by not receiving the visions? And how would Angel be affected by continuing to have Doyle's friendship? His very specific encouragement to engage with humanity and that link from shared "demon heritage". Very interesting question about how things would have been different if Doyle had survived. I was thinking about this as I was trying to play catch-up with Erin's Angelphiles. (Yes, I am so far behind as to be almost relegated to the 2nd page of the Angelphile discussion thread.) But the thing that I noticed in those early episodes was that Doyle was the heart, the balance, the translator, the go-between of their little group. In Sense and Sensitivity, he was the person who explained Angel to Cordy and vice versa. Angel and Cordy didn't have anything in common until Doyle. I believe their first serious conversation ever was about Doyle and his hidden depths (really, really hidden) in The Bachelor Party. I know their first true, deep emotional connection was their mutual grief over his death. In her excellent Angelphile analysis of Sense and Sensitivity, Erin made the point that expressed emotions need to be balanced with common sense. I think this balance is what Angel had to struggle with throughout the series, all the way up to Season Five with the Head/Heart & Caveman/Astronaut themes. When the balance is gone, badness usually happens. Of Angel, Cordy and Doyle, Doyle was the one who seemed to be the person most in balance between sense and sensitivity. Angel pretty much refused to express or share his feelings at all (unless it was to take out his anger on the bad guys), while Cordy was the "I think it I say it" girl. Doyle was the one who was able to both express his feelings and keep quiet about them as the situation demanded. As Lola mentioned earlier, he had heart and insight into others' feelings. When Wes joined the group, the dynamic, I believe, tilted towards the Sense/Head/Astronaut side of things, since that would be Angel's & Wes's natural tendency. Cordy was the one who had to provide the heart and feelings of connection between them all. If Doyle had survived, I believe that there would have been more balance between head and heart. For the longest time, Angel kept his relationship with Wes as business. (Possibly due to the fact that Doyle's death *hurt*.) And despite the fact that Wes eventually became Angel's closest friend aside from Cordy, they still couldn't talk when it mattered the most: Connor & the prophecy. Too much thinking, not enough trusting of feelings, IMO. Cordy's temporary absence left them unbalanced. Doyle was the one other person besides Cordy (and later, Lorne) who would take the risk to talk an unwilling Angel out of one of his brood-fests. (Sorry Wes, the tea just didn't cut it. ) And it seems to me he eventually did so because he liked Angel, and not just because Angel was a champion. I'm not absolutely sure that Wes, Fred, or Gunn saw Angel as a person first and champion second the way that Cordy and Doyle saw him. In short, I think much badness would have been averted if Doyle had survived. And we would be seeing a more integrated Angel. Of course, Cordy wouldn't have matured so much, the AI group would not have been so battle-tested, and Spike would probably not have come to LA. One other thing about Doyle: there always seemed to be an underlying sadness to him, even when he was being funny or goofy. I realized that when I was looking for a screen-cap of him. They all seem sad somehow. In any case, here's one of my favorites. It's from In the Dark, but it seemed appropriate here. Linda, late in more ways than one.
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Post by Linda on Jul 21, 2005 7:52:04 GMT -5
I also was thinking about how we get another example of Angel being referred to someone special, someone "chosen", like Buffy. So, the demons think he is the “promised one” - but really, it's Doyle who saves them. So does that mean Doyle was the "promised one"? I mean, Angel didn't recognise this as a prophesy about him, so . . . I sorta view all prophesies with a jaded eye nowadays - but if we assume this prophesy was accurate, then - yeah, Lola, it had to be about Doyle. I agree. It's interesting - in this episode we have three "Chosen Ones" - Doyle, who was chosen by the PTBs to carry the visions, Angel, also Chosen by the PTBs for a redemptive struggle, and Cordy, chosen, by, well, Doyle, to continue his work. On BtVS, people tended to have choices, and decide whether or not to fight the fight. Xander, Willow, Anya, Tara, Spike...all had to choose their battle against evil. The obvious exception to this was Buffy and other Slayers - they had no choice. (I'm speaking here not of the choice to fight - because clearly everyone always had the option of walking away, even Buffy. But...it's more about the choice to be a soldier for good, in a way. Buffy was "chosen". Xander chose.) Whereas - none of the AtS fighters, save possibly Gunn, really chose their paths for themselves. Angel and Doyle and Cordy are all on various paths of redemption, and the initial choice to become what they were was taken from them (Cordy is debatable - but she certainly didn't have a choice about those visions.) Fred, too - was forced into her first step down that path, in a truly unavoidable way. Wesley - may have chosen, but I don't view his upbringing as presenting any real options in his mind. It's interesting, especially since both finales show the heroes making a choice - to fight or not to fight. But only in BtVS do I get the sense that the choice was really - a choice. Hi Rachael! Neat point. I was thinking that maybe AtS was not so much about choosing a path as choosing how to deal with what you can't change. Sort of the adult side of the Jossverse. The past can't be changed and sometimes what happened to you was not your fault although many times it *is* your fault -- so what are you gonna do now? How do you stay true to yourself? And why the heck do you keep on making the same old mistakes over and over again? Only bigger? Whoops! Perhaps that was too topic-y. Angel, consistent to the last. Linda, sorry I stopped making sense around 2 am or so.
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