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Post by SpringSummers on Mar 3, 2005 10:44:32 GMT -5
Let the discussion begin!
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Mar 3, 2005 13:15:18 GMT -5
Masterly, as always, Spring. Once revealed by you, there is such consistency in the themes, and wording, and even camera angles in the episodes!
Do you think they "just happen" like this, or are we seeing the result of a draft process, in which themes are identified, characters' symbolic roles (as facets of Buffy) identified and used consistently, and then (in final draft) the wording is altered in small, unobtrusive ways to drive the points home? I couldn't be THAT consistent with wording and symbolism on first draft, though I might manage it about third draft. How do you think it was done?
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Post by Queen E on Mar 3, 2005 14:56:01 GMT -5
Oh, bravo, Spring!
Love the "Sailing to Byzantium" analysis; masterfully done. (And one of my favorite poems.)
Will talk more at length, but just wanted to give my kudos now.
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Post by SpringSummers on Mar 3, 2005 15:37:29 GMT -5
Masterly, as always, Spring. Once revealed by you, there is such consistency in the themes, and wording, and even camera angles in the episodes! Thanks, Nan. I don't think the scripts "just happen" to end up with such consistent wording and images - I've never been involved in this kind of endeavor in any professional capacity, so I can only guess that a writer/director goes into the job knowing what has to happen both "plotwise" and thematically (and naturally, those two things are going to be connected) and takes it from there. Someone has to be . . . providing overall oversite, I would think, both for each script, and from ep to ep, which is what I imagine Joss (and then Marti, with Joss still available for consult) did. I can easily believe that everything is tinkered with up to the very end - I am always impressed with how seamlessly most of this is done - the story and the funny doesn't suffer - at least not usually. Though BtVS did seem to put thematic values first, and there were times when plot consistency suffered noticeably. I didn't really mind the occasional need for fanwankery on the plot, because I found the characters and the . . . emotional honesty and vision . . . so incredibly consistent - a much rarer thing to find, on TV. Anyhow - I do think that some things that end up working well in the scripts might very well just be serendipitious, but I think most of it is carefully planned and deliberate. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Mar 3, 2005 15:45:11 GMT -5
Oh, bravo, Spring! Love the "Sailing to Byzantium" analysis; masterfully done. (And one of my favorite poems.) Will talk more at length, but just wanted to give my kudos now. Thanks, Erin. I hope you get a chance to share more of your thoughts on this. I really think that name for the Knights is meant to be a reference to that particular poem - it fits so well with the Season. Hope your own analyses are going well. I have yet to watch anything but AtS Season 5 (with a few exceptions, most in Season 4), so I can't repay your input here by adding my thoughts on your thread. But it does help keep me going to have a partner in this endeavor.   |
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Post by Queen E on Mar 3, 2005 17:28:39 GMT -5
Thanks, Erin. I hope you get a chance to share more of your thoughts on this. I really think that name for the Knights is meant to be a reference to that particular poem - it fits so well with the Season. Hope your own analyses are going well. I have yet to watch anything but AtS Season 5 (with a few exceptions, most in Season 4), so I can't repay your input here by adding my thoughts on your thread. But it does help keep me going to have a partner in this endeavor. Oh, me too! Will get my thoughts together tonight, I hope, and post tomorrow. I want to reread "Sailing to Byzantium." That "once out of nature" line really resonates... |
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Post by KMInfinity on Mar 5, 2005 13:43:57 GMT -5
As always, so much to think about and praise. Brava Spring.
I too especially appreciated the use of Yeats' poem as a lens for the episode. It made me think about how Buffy's "mission" is universal and eternal. It also recalled a really good book by Guy Gavriel Kay, but I'll save that for the book recommendations thread.
quote:
I assume there is great conscious care taken in the drafts to produce this level of subtext and layering, but I also have a few "creative friends" who say that, given the structure and vision of the piece, so much takes place subconsciously, especially if a creative team is able to feed of each other successfully. True genius can "incubate" ideas and often bring forth a creative piece (nearly) whole and complete. I remember a comment a prof made in college to counter the 99% sweat/1% genius paradigm for creativity. He acknowledged the saying had a grain of truth to it, but also made the point that true genius was not merely 1% of any formula, that it went beyond the template of the process of production.
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Post by SpringSummers on Mar 6, 2005 18:24:51 GMT -5
As always, so much to think about and praise. Brava Spring. Thanks, KM. Yes - that a well put way of a expressing what I am thinking on this as well. Nothing is left to chance, but some things happen by "chance" anyhow. I agree with the mention of the subconscious influence on these things - it feels like it happened by chance, but there is likely some input by the subconscious. |
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Mar 6, 2005 19:25:34 GMT -5
Your breakdown of the gang as aspects of Buffy inside her head is great. Yet another reason why they travel in an RV rather than Giles and Xander's cars.
Nice catch on the reference to Innocence and the rocket launcher.
The connections to the poems you mention are intriguing, but it's going to take me a little while to digest, so I'll come back later to comment.
The one thing I really love about this episode, and about the Big Bad storyarc in season 5, is that there are so many players in the game obstensibly on the same side, the monks, Buffy and the Scoobies, Ben, and the Knights, and they all work against each other to allow Gory to get Dawn. Running away would have obstensibly worked, since Glory's not that smart. Something being said about communication and cooperation here.
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Post by SpringSummers on Mar 7, 2005 17:47:24 GMT -5
Your breakdown of the gang as aspects of Buffy inside her head is great. Yet another reason why they travel in an RV rather than Giles and Xander's cars. Nice catch on the reference to Innocence and the rocket launcher. The connections to the poems you mention are intriguing, but it's going to take me a little while to digest, so I'll come back later to comment. The one thing I really love about this episode, and about the Big Bad storyarc in season 5, is that there are so many players in the game obstensibly on the same side, the monks, Buffy and the Scoobies, Ben, and the Knights, and they all work against each other to allow Gory to get Dawn. Running away would have obstensibly worked, since Glory's not that smart. Something being said about communication and cooperation here. Well, Buffy's #1 goal is to save Dawn, which is a different goal #1 goal than the Knights have (save the world) which is a different #1 goal than Ben has (find a way to get rid of Glory so he can have a normal life). Though there is a common enemy here - cooperation between the parties could have made it all easier. But there was no trust, or reason to trust. Buffy would have been afraid the Knights would kill Dawn, The Knights would be afraid that Buffy wouldn't have the resolve to kill Dawn if it came to that, and Ben - he'd be afraid of being killed himself. And yep - the mysteries and modes and need for communication is something the series is constantly exploring. |
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Post by Lola m on Mar 10, 2005 22:51:21 GMT -5
Interesting interesting device for this analysis, Spring. Going inside Buffy's head - which is where we will literally go, in the next episode. The elements you point out show us the direction that we are heading. Particularly loved your examples of Xander as Buffy's heart (I know, you're not surprised   ). I really loved this sequence: Such a great summary of how we feel pulled along to the season's end. In hindsight, we see how direct the path was all season long, straight to that final plunge. The way you bring it all together with Yeats' Sailing to Byzantium was masterful. Truly. So many images and scenes from this episode just sweep me away. The way the gang is trying to be all "same old, same old, Buffy will defeat Glory, la la la" when they are at Xander's place and Buffy is just so . . . she knows. To me, it is the perfect match for the next episode when she will talk about the moment she "knows" she's gonna lose. It's like, seeing her here, we can see the truth of that later statement. Ben's frustration coming out more and more - saying his life is "... mine and I plan on keeping it". We get a hint of the betrayal we'll see later. We're fooled when he doesn't take the opportunity to kill Dawn in the garage. But the very fact that we were scared he might should have clued us in that we are right to worry about Ben. Even without the hellgod alter ego suddenly appearing thing. A knight kills his "brother" to save him. Buffy will choose to kill herself to save her sister and the world. I'd forgotten how truly scary the scenes in the garage are. When they are fighting off the knights, when Buffy is interrogating the General, when they are trapped, when Glory finaly appears. When they run out after her and see how in just moments she's killed all the army. All the bodies just lying where they'd fought before. We learn so much in this episode. So many of the questions that Dawn and we have had about her existance, just flung our way by the General as if they were meaningless after all. Because they are to him, all that matters is stopping the Beast. It's chilling to hear him refuse to even use language that acknowledges her humanness. "The instrument" "the key" "the link must be severed". It, it, it. Never she. It's Buffy who says "she". And it makes me go back to the moment when Buffy first knew what Dawn was. When the dying monk tells her Dawn is human - and innocent - and she doesn't know.  When Buffy says: "I won't let anything happen to you. I promise." It's just so . . . well, it gets to me as much as later when Spike also makes a promise. Xander's great speech about how there are rules, or at least there should be. And if they are as honourable as they think they are, then . . . And just when it could be a bit precious, he comes in with - Oh, and we have your general. Ahhhh. Great ep! And a great analysis, Spring - thanks and brava! Lola |
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Post by Queen E on Mar 10, 2005 23:04:00 GMT -5
Spring,
There is no way I can say it better than you did, but I love the parallel you draw between "Sailing to Byzantium" and the Knights and their need for order. Masterfully done.
And the "Once out of nature" strikes me as not only applicable to Season 6 Buffy and her emotional disconnect after being "out of nature" but fits in nicely with your examples of Spike slow ascent. He too is "out of nature" emotionally, morally, and demonically, until we finally see it manifested physically in Spike the incorporeal's arrival at Wolfram and Hart.
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Post by SpringSummers on Mar 11, 2005 7:49:50 GMT -5
Interesting interesting device for this analysis, Spring. Going inside Buffy's head - which is where we will literally go, in the next episode. The elements you point out show us the direction that we are heading. Particularly loved your examples of Xander as Buffy's heart (I know, you're not surprised ). It was watching Xander that made me realize how "close to the surface" the "Buffy's Head" roles were in this episode. The sickness, the musical chairs with Spike, the way he managed to be in just about every scene . . . and there were several references in the ep to "mind vs heart" - "She may have taken your mind, but she won't take your heart!" and also Giles, telling Buffy that she always "puts her heart first" - the talk of "reassembling," the mention of other body parts . . . Spike and Giles switching the driver's seat . . . it's just what jumped out at me. Thanks so much, Lola. And thanks for the feedback. Thanks for sharing these great insights, Lola. You're very welcome! |
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Post by SpringSummers on Mar 11, 2005 7:53:27 GMT -5
Spring, There is no way I can say it better than you did, but I love the parallel you draw between "Sailing to Byzantium" and the Knights and their need for order. Masterfully done. And the "Once out of nature" strikes me as not only applicable to Season 6 Buffy and her emotional disconnect after being "out of nature" but fits in nicely with your examples of Spike slow ascent. He too is "out of nature" emotionally, morally, and demonically, until we finally see it manifested physically in Spike the incorporeal's arrival at Wolfram and Hart. Thank you, Erin. And oh - you are a regular mind-reader! I mention Spike's non-corporealism in the The Weight of the World analysis. I snuck it in to the spicy extras. And I agree it is a physical manifestation of very real characteristics in Spike - particularly when compared to the extra-solid and overly-burdened Angel - which reaches an apex for Angel at the beginning of AtS5, during which time Spike is overly fancy-free. |
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Post by Queen E on Mar 11, 2005 11:34:22 GMT -5
Thank you, Erin. And oh - you are a regular mind-reader! I mention Spike's non-corporealism in the The Weight of the World analysis. I snuck it in to the spicy extras. And I agree it is a physical manifestation of very real characteristics in Spike - particularly when compared to the extra-solid and overly-burdened Angel - which reaches an apex for Angel at the beginning of AtS5, during which time Spike is overly fancy-free. You're so welcome! I noticed that when I read "The Weight of the World" last night; great minds, huh? *grin* Absolutely...and even when he is corporealized he's still lighter. Even in their walks: Spike bounces, Angel hunches and takes long strides. |
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When Buffy says: "I won't let anything happen to you. I promise." It's just so . . . well, it gets to me as much as later when Spike also makes a promise.