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Post by TechnoSlut on Jun 14, 2004 12:36:23 GMT -5
Written by: Cheryl Cain Directed by: Jim Contner Air date: 12/6/02
The crew stages a rescue mission when Niska takes Mal prisoner and subjects him to torture; Inara raises eyebrows when she takes a female client.
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Post by Karen on Aug 30, 2004 20:20:10 GMT -5
I don't have a lot of deep thoughts to share; just that this is one of my favorite episodes. I love how Wash and Mal bond over their own "war story", and how Wash took the lead to get the crew together to rescue Mal. And the funny in this episode is brilliant. Especially the exchanges between Mal, Zoe and Wash. And the classic from Jayne - "I'll be in my bunk." Now, Wash has his own war story with Mal to talk about during the long lonely nights aboard Serenity. Niska is the perfect bad guy. And all those torture tools - wouldn't you love to chain him up and use them on him? Well, not really...I'd just like to throw him down the shaft and be done with it. I'm hoping we see more of him in the movie. Looking forward to everyone's insightful thoughts.
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Post by raenstorm on Aug 30, 2004 20:37:19 GMT -5
I also don't have much to say and certainly no insightful thoughts I like this episode for a lot of reasons and none of them are probably presented in my notes. Oh well. "No power in the 'verse *pause* can stop me." Interesting place to put a pause. That "verse" can be mistaken for a moment there until she finishes her sentence. Apple grenades - certainly a new take on the poisoned apple. Lamby toes?? Is that what he said?? J: "I'll be in my bunk." Z: "Jayne, grab your weapon." ha ha ha They cut off his ear. What does that say about Mal? I thought that he was a pretty good listener? What's the significance of the ear? Mal was dead and then brought back to life. Yep. Officially a Joss show now. Kids grow up, huh? Kaylee is afraid of River now. Kinda makes me sad but, then, growing up will do that to you.
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Post by Lola m on Aug 30, 2004 21:27:01 GMT -5
This is just the best Zoe episode ever! I had really liked her character before, but this episode made me just love and admire her so much. And it's all down to that one scene.
She comes into the room where Wash and Mal have been tortured and Niska is gonna try and play his little head games with her.
NISKA: And to me, they are worth more. I think this is not enough. Not enough for two. But sufficient, perhaps for one. (does his creepy smile) Ah... you now have -- ZOE: Him. (She indicates Wash). I'm sorry, you were gonna ask me to choose, right? Did you want me to finish?
That scene - man, I have described that scene to soooo many people as part of my "you gotta watch this show" speech.
Now, of course you also have the fabulous rescue fight scenes and "take me, sir, take me hard" and wife soup and so on. But that one scene just says it all for me. There's no question, no debate, no pause, no decision to be made. Just "him".
Ahem. OK. There's a bunch of other good stuff in here. So, random thoughts:
* All the "war stories" we get - Zoe and the apples; River and what happened to her; folks talking about Shan Yu; Niska and his worry about the stories folks are telling about how Mal bested him; Book's stories that we never hear but are given hints about.
* Speaking of, we get quite a few surprising glimpses into the mystery that is Book in this ep. His very intriguing and somewhat scary conversation with Simon that starts the whole thing. Working out with Jayne. Displaying a bit too much knowledge about weapons, tracking and how an ambush works. Most telling to me - Mal was all concerned at the end about how Simon was doing after having to shoot at folks. How would the doctor be feeling after having to hurt, possibly kill? But not one word to the preacher about he's handling all this. Nope. Mal seems to assume Book is doing just fine. And he is.
* Love the matching book-end scenes of Kaylee and River - playing like kids at the start, shooting and killing and leaving Kaylee looking at River as if she really sees her for the first time and is scared and a little sick by the end. All nicely circling back around using the repeated line: "No power in the 'verse can stop me."
* Who else but Joss would stage such a horrifying yet hysterically funny yet amazingly touching and noble torture scene? The flip little domestic fight played out between jolts of electricity that turns on a dime to show us how Mal is working to keep Wash from losing it - to keep him going. Plus, what torture scene is complete without the line: "That's just you projecting your own intimacy issues on everyone else."
* Of course, the multiple mentions of Shan Yu's wacky theory that you'd only learn what a person is truly like by torture are to clue us in that Niska is on a fool's errand in trying to find some "real" Mal buried under the guy he's been dealing with. He's always been working with the real Mal. Niska's error is in not realizing the real thing when he saw it. (I personally think all you learn with the Shan Yu method is what a person is like when facing torture, a rather small and not normally used facet of personality. Or as Simon puts it, "Sadistic crap legitimized by florid prose.")
Lola
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Post by Shan on Aug 30, 2004 21:48:28 GMT -5
I also don't have much to say and certainly no insightful thoughts I like this episode for a lot of reasons and none of them are probably presented in my notes. Oh well. "No power in the 'verse *pause* can stop me." Interesting place to put a pause. That "verse" can be mistaken for a moment there until she finishes her sentence. Apple grenades - certainly a new take on the poisoned apple. Lamby toes?? Is that what he said?? J: "I'll be in my bunk." Z: "Jayne, grab your weapon." ha ha ha They cut off his ear. What does that say about Mal? I thought that he was a pretty good listener? What's the significance of the ear?Mal was dead and then brought back to life. Yep. Officially a Joss show now. Kids grow up, huh? Kaylee is afraid of River now. Kinda makes me sad but, then, growing up will do that to you. Easiest bit to a) send back in a hankie in someone's pocket and b) reattach with minimal loss of function. ;D
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Post by Lola m on Aug 30, 2004 22:00:46 GMT -5
Easiest bit to a) send back in a hankie in someone's pocket and b) reattach with minimal loss of function. ;D ;D Actually, I kinda wondered if Niska cut off the ear because he was mad at Zoe for spoiling his little "Sophie's Choice" head game. 'Cuz then you could get metaphor-y and say he cut off the ear because she wouldn't listen. Plus, ears and fingers are the favored "hack it off to show them we mean business" body parts for the traditional villian. And Niska is a very traditional villian, as we see from the start of the show. Simon talking to Book about becoming a criminal mastermind and growing a black mustache, says "I'm a traditionalist". And then, scene cut to Niska torturing someone who skimmed money from him. Lola
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Post by Rachael on Aug 30, 2004 23:32:23 GMT -5
This is just the best Zoe episode ever! I had really liked her character before, but this episode made me just love and admire her so much. And it's all down to that one scene. She comes into the room where Wash and Mal have been tortured and Niska is gonna try and play his little head games with her. NISKA: And to me, they are worth more. I think this is not enough. Not enough for two. But sufficient, perhaps for one. (does his creepy smile) Ah... you now have -- ZOE: Him. (She indicates Wash). I'm sorry, you were gonna ask me to choose, right? Did you want me to finish? That scene - man, I have described that scene to soooo many people as part of my "you gotta watch this show" speech. Now, of course you also have the fabulous rescue fight scenes and "take me, sir, take me hard" and wife soup and so on. But that one scene just says it all for me. There's no question, no debate, no pause, no decision to be made. Just "him". Surely. . .although I'll play Devil's Advocate and offer an alternative explanation (yours, I'm assuming, being that she immediately chose her husband's life over that of her captain): Wash was less likely to survive for long, maybe, in Zoƫ's mind. So, if you get one back, get the one that needs to leave first, so you'll have longer to work out how to get the other one back. Personally, I think it's mostly the husband-love, with a dollop of the practicality thrown in. <snip> Says both that Book is an interesting mystery with lots and lots of military knowledge in his background, AND that Mal knows something, wouldn't you say? <snip> EETAH, and just to add: Funniest. Torture. Scene. Ever. Not that there was a lot of competition there. Ooh. I was gonna say that - like Mal's wisecracking just stays constant, from beginning to end. And the second no one's looking, he's up getting himself out of trouble. (I can just hear it: "Two weeks ago my ship broke down, I got shot and damn near froze to death in the vacuum of space; you think a little torture's gonna slow me down?") BUT. . .it's a nice twist to show us just that - the "real" Mal is what we get. Pretty much always. But what about Wash? Wash, who undergoes a sudden (it seems) change in personality when he realizes that Mal's been left behind. Seems that maybe the torture did bring out something of the "real" Wash we'd never seen. Not something he'd want out there all the time, but REAL handy on occasion, I'd say. Yeah; mostly I agree with that. Kaylee might be frightened by River's show, but I'm just intrigued. So. . .so what? She can pick out where three people are instantly, with one look, and then shoot them with her eyes closed. It's hardly the most unusual thing she's ever done. But Kaylee's scared because she couldn't bring herself to do what River did without even breaking stride. So, River is now more alien to her than she was when she was reading minds. . . . Good, fun quotes: "I'm lost. . .I'm angry. . .and I'm armed." "She's terse. I can be terse. Once in flight school I was laconic." "Screw you!" "Get in line!" "Preacher, don't the Bible have some fairly specific things to say about killin'?" "Yes, it does. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps." - This is second only to "special hell" as my favorite Book line ever. "I understand. Take me, sir. Take me hard." "Something about that is just downright unsettling."
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Post by William the Bloody on Aug 31, 2004 6:00:56 GMT -5
<snip> * Of course, the multiple mentions of Shan Yu's wacky theory that you'd only learn what a person is truly like by torture are to clue us in that Niska is on a fool's errand in trying to find some "real" Mal buried under the guy he's been dealing with. He's always been working with the real Mal. Niska's error is in not realizing the real thing when he saw it. (I personally think all you learn with the Shan Yu method is what a person is like when facing torture, a rather small and not normally used facet of personality. Or as Simon puts it, "Sadistic crap legitimized by florid prose.") Lola Good point. We also might continue and look at it this way. Everyday fro Mal is torture, thats why he is on Serneity...seeking serenity. We already have the onion that is stripped down version of Mal. After all the mental anguish he has experienced, what's a little pain or death? Vlad
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Post by Lola m on Aug 31, 2004 7:35:54 GMT -5
Surely. . .although I'll play Devil's Advocate and offer an alternative explanation (yours, I'm assuming, being that she immediately chose her husband's life over that of her captain): Wash was less likely to survive for long, maybe, in Zoƫ's mind. So, if you get one back, get the one that needs to leave first, so you'll have longer to work out how to get the other one back. Personally, I think it's mostly the husband-love, with a dollop of the practicality thrown in. <snip> Oh, yeah - there's a heck of a lot of practicality there. The only logical thing to do is to take Wash. Mal knows it - the look he gives them as they're leaving shows he knows it. Zoe knows it. Only Wash doesn't really know it, and I think he kinda knows it. But it doesn't take away from that first, instant moment of "him". That unthinking, unheeding, "him". Oh, yeah. Liked your use of the word alien. Maybe it's 'cuz the reading minds stuff is more . . . emotional - in tune with people. Which would seem more "right" to Kaylee. But the "boom, boom, boom" automatic and creepifyingly ;D accurate shooting, followed by a little smile and a line from a game? Just too outside Kaylee's level of understanding. Like she suddenly sees that River is . . . something else - and something that maybe she won't like at all when she really does understand. LOL! Great lines to pick! Plus, the thing that can't be replicated here, which is the delivery of each of these. Flawless! This cast is just tooooo good. Lola
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Post by Linda on Aug 31, 2004 9:28:44 GMT -5
<snip> Mal was dead and then brought back to life. Yep. Officially a Joss show now. <snip> Good thing Mal was only mostly dead. ;D Am I the only one who thought that the special torture device seemed a bit Count Rugen-ish?. And boy, they really did storm that castle.
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Post by Linda on Aug 31, 2004 9:48:48 GMT -5
Hi all!
Eetah with everyone's posts! This was one of my favorites.
Although the body count directly attributable to our guys is the highest in the series, I think.
Everybody has already pointed out the the stuff I liked except:
Zoe: Jayne. This is something the Captain has to do for himself. Mal: No! No it's not! Zoe: Oh.
When Jayne appeared with Vera, I thought: Yay! Jayne learned his lesson from Ariel!
So: Wash was all upset with Zoe when he found out that she had presented his idea to Mal and then lied to him about it. Why did he ask her to pass it on in the first place? On second viewing, I decided that Wash knew that Mal didn't quite respect him. So any issues he had with Zoe and Mal's relationship would have to be worked out with Mal, too. Because in that little triangle, the Mal & Zoe bond was the only one that was based on years of deep, fire-tested, solid trust. So this episode strengthened the Wash & Mal bond as well as the Wash & Zoe bond. Nice.
Seems like this was the first firefight for Wash, Simon, Kaylee & River. Kaylee's fear was so heartbreaking. But, in its own way, so was River's part it the firefight. No remorse. Which is scary if she is empathic. They started off the episode as carefree sisters and they ended it as strangers.
Come to think of it: can we really know that this is River's first firefight? I think she has something akin to a split personality here. She goes to Kaylee out of concern, I think -- responding to Kaylee's fear. But she also assesses the situation. One quick glance out the door. The key thing here is she says "Can't look, can't look" to herself as she shoots. And then the alien (as Rachael put it) part of her says "No power in the 'verse can stop me." Prophetic?
Linda, limited coherence this morning, but, I *love* this episode.
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Post by Linda on Aug 31, 2004 11:28:51 GMT -5
Hi all,
My sleep pattern seems to be wonky right now, but I did notice that they were drawing a deliberate parallel between River and Mal, with the Shan Yu and torture remarks applying to both of them. What are they saying about them when River ends up as an efficient killer? That Niska is doomed? 'Cause Mal seemed pretty pissed at the end, there. I think there's some other significance here, but I can't quite figure it out.
Oh, and watching this episode is making me revise how I think River fits in to an "Aspects of Mal" list (which I posted in the Out of Gas thread, hint, hint): now I think of her more as Mal's tortured spirit -- she went through the physical torture that he endured spiritually. So maybe when River is healed and reconciled with Book (Mal's faith), then Mal will be a spiritually whole person.
Oh, this is a Joss show. Ummm...when she transforms herself into something new, then Mal can start on a new path?
By the way, this Aspect interpretation fits with the way River is introduced to us. Frozen and in stasis. And Mal's decision to let the Tams stay on board is what keeps her (his spirit) alive.
Linda, oooh coherent (hopefully) connections in the early morning.
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Post by Queen E on Aug 31, 2004 16:37:36 GMT -5
Hi all, My sleep pattern seems to be wonky right now, but I did notice that they were drawing a deliberate parallel between River and Mal, with the Shan Yu and torture remarks applying to both of them. What are they saying about them when River ends up as an efficient killer? That Niska is doomed? 'Cause Mal seemed pretty pissed at the end, there. I think there's some other significance here, but I can't quite figure it out. Oh, and watching this episode is making me revise how I think River fits in to an "Aspects of Mal" list (which I posted in the Out of Gas thread, hint, hint): now I think of her more as Mal's tortured spirit -- she went through the physical torture that he endured spiritually. So maybe when River is healed and reconciled with Book (Mal's faith), then Mal will be a spiritually whole person. Oh, this is a Joss show. Ummm...when she transforms herself into something new, then Mal can start on a new path? By the way, this Aspect interpretation fits with the way River is introduced to us. Frozen and in stasis. And Mal's decision to let the Tams stay on board is what keeps her (his spirit) alive. Linda, oooh coherent (hopefully) connections in the early morning. Wow. That's a delightfully mind-blowing proposition..right up there with the suggestion that Mal indeed did die in "Out of Gas." Now I'm flashing on "Normal Again." OK, I'm back. Let's see: 1) Eetah on "The Princess Bride" moment: I totally expected Niska to say, "But instead of sucking water, we're sucking life." 2) On the subject of Zoe's choice: One of the things that struck me about her in this episode is her refusal to get sucked into Niska's mindgames. He wants her to eat her guts out over this decision, and she snatches the power from him in a second. 3) Wash and his tiny gun in the kitchen. So Joss; making Wash talk all manly and cock a gun that could fit into a nice beaded handbag. Awesome 3-shot of Jayne, Wash, and Zoe taking out Viktor.
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Post by Nickim on Sept 1, 2004 13:18:43 GMT -5
I really like this episode and yet I really hate it. I don't like to watch anyone being tortured no matter how funny the dialogue.
I'm with Lola that the Shan Yu idea of finding the real person under torture is crap. You find the real person when they feel safe enough with you to reveal themself willingly.
Zoe's story about the Alliance troops being so close that they could talk to each other made me think of the seige of Stalingrad. The German and Russian troops were close enough that when the German soldiers heard the Russian's playing music, the Germans shouted out, "Play more Beethoven. We won't shoot." I keep hearing Book say, "Don't think, just shoot." That's just what generals tell the troops before every battle. That's exactly what River does later. Kaylee's thinking about the fact that those guys are People. Yeah, they're the Bad Guys, but they're still people with families that love them.
I think this is one of my favorite exchanges in all of Firefly:
Z: This is something the captain needs to do himself. M: No, no, no it isn't.
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Post by Linda on Sept 2, 2004 23:38:09 GMT -5
Wow. That's a delightfully mind-blowing proposition..right up there with the suggestion that Mal indeed did die in "Out of Gas." Now I'm flashing on "Normal Again." OK, I'm back. Hi Erin! Yeah, my mind is blowing too! Oh, wait.... And regarding the theory that Mal died: does that mean that his idea of heaven is being surrounded by his chosen family? 'Cause that's *neat*. Eetah about the power snatch. See post below... Was that the same tiny gun that Mal used to scare off the bad samaritans in Out of Gas? 'Cause maybe that gun shoots something other than bullets. So that it's WAY more threatening that we realize... And Eetah! regarding the 3-shot. Linda, again with the Firefly obsession (which has temporarily eclipsed my Angel obsession for which I apologize ... I'll watch the episodes you've analyzed soon! I promise!)
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