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Post by Linda on Sept 2, 2004 23:49:40 GMT -5
I really like this episode and yet I really hate it. I don't like to watch anyone being tortured no matter how funny the dialogue. I'm with Lola that the Shan Yu idea of finding the real person under torture is crap. You find the real person when they feel safe enough with you to reveal themself willingly. Zoe's story about the Alliance troops being so close that they could talk to each other made me think of the seige of Stalingrad. The German and Russian troops were close enough that when the German soldiers heard the Russian's playing music, the Germans shouted out, "Play more Beethoven. We won't shoot." I keep hearing Book say, "Don't think, just shoot." That's just what generals tell the troops before every battle. That's exactly what River does later. Kaylee's thinking about the fact that those guys are People. Yeah, they're the Bad Guys, but they're still people with families that love them. I think this is one of my favorite exchanges in all of Firefly: Z: This is something the captain needs to do himself. M: No, no, no it isn't. Hi Nicki: I think that you're right that this was one of the most "gray" episodes of the series, for all that it was funny. Although I agree for the most part with you and Lola about Shan Yu, I think one of the points of the episode was finding out what you do and who you are under extreme circumstances. Mal, Wash, Zoe and River are the focus, but the one thing that comes through is that the entire crew, including Jayne, will "storm the castle" for each other. No matter the odds. I dunno if we could have found that out under less extreme circumstances. Linda, hoping this makes sense after I read it later...
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Post by Linda on Sept 2, 2004 23:53:34 GMT -5
Hi all!
Okay, here's another Aspects of Mal revision attributable to War Stories. Wash represents Mal's sense of humor. Eetah with everyone that Mal saved Wash during the torture session by keeping him angry and fighting.
But I think that Wash saved Mal here, too. With Wash there, Mal had someone else to focus on, someone else to help. And he was able to do it through his sense of humor. Eetah with Rachael that this was the funniest torture scene ever.
Once Wash was gone, and there was only Niska and pain, Mal died. But his last remark was a snarky one: And they say owners don't look like their pets.
When he was revived, his first remark was a joke. Niska: You died Mr. Reynolds. Mal: Seemed like the thing to do.
I believe that Mal's sense of humor was the reason that Niska didn't break him.
Speculation: If it had been Zoe (Mal's Aspect: intelligence/reason) who was with Mal when they got taken, (and yes, I believe that they would have been taken because of the number of sharpshooters and the implied hardware brought to the ambush site), then Mal's battle with Niska would have been on different terms: a battle of wits. Because he would trust that Zoe could take care of herself, his focus would have been on Niska.
But as Zoe proved, Niska can be taken aback by disengaging from his mindgames. (Eetah with Lola and Erin on the "Him." moment.)
And so I believe that Wash's presence was very important to Mal's survival of Niska's torture. Because he allowed Mal to disengage himself from what Niska was trying to do to him. Which is what a sense of humor does.
Linda, obsessed? Moi?
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Post by Queen E on Sept 3, 2004 1:26:56 GMT -5
Hi Erin! Yeah, my mind is blowing too! Oh, wait.... And regarding the theory that Mal died: does that mean that his idea of heaven is being surrounded by his chosen family? 'Cause that's *neat*. Hey, it's Wednesday somewhere! And always in Erinland. I think it's neat too. It says so much about Mal; and makes him so very sympathetic, even with his bitterness and sadness... No worries! I actually think that Firefly had the potential to be even more spectacular than Buffy and Angel, had it been given the chance to delveop...I can watch those eps over and over...
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Post by Queen E on Sept 3, 2004 1:28:14 GMT -5
Hi all! Okay, here's another Aspects of Mal revision attributable to War Stories. Wash represents Mal's sense of humor. Eetah with everyone that Mal saved Wash during the torture session by keeping him angry and fighting. But I think that Wash saved Mal here, too. With Wash there, Mal had someone else to focus on, someone else to help. And he was able to do it through his sense of humor. Eetah with Rachael that this was the funniest torture scene ever. Once Wash was gone, and there was only Niska and pain, Mal died. But his last remark was a snarky one: And they say owners don't look like their pets. When he was revived, his first remark was a joke. Niska: You died Mr. Reynolds. Mal: Seemed like the thing to do. I believe that Mal's sense of humor was the reason that Niska didn't break him. Speculation: If it had been Zoe (Mal's Aspect: intelligence/reason) who was with Mal when they got taken, (and yes, I believe that they would have been taken because of the number of sharpshooters and the implied hardware brought to the ambush site), then Mal's battle with Niska would have been on different terms: a battle of wits. Because he would trust that Zoe could take care of herself, his focus would have been on Niska. But as Zoe proved, Niska can be taken aback by disengaging from his mindgames. (Eetah with Lola and Erin on the "Him." moment.) And so I believe that Wash's presence was very important to Mal's survival of Niska's torture. Because he allowed Mal to disengage himself from what Niska was trying to do to him. Which is what a sense of humor does. Linda, obsessed? Moi? Linda: You know what I'd love? If you'd gather all the "aspects of Mal" observations you've posted and make them into an essay, and then we can put it on the site. I'll beta it for you!
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Post by Karen on Sept 3, 2004 9:26:09 GMT -5
Hi all! Once Wash was gone, and there was only Niska and pain, Mal died. Linda, obsessed? Moi? That's a very neat observation, Linda. With Wash safe and out of harm's way, Mal had no reason to fight to live anymore. But there should've been hope.
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Post by Linda on Sept 7, 2004 4:28:57 GMT -5
Linda: You know what I'd love? If you'd gather all the "aspects of Mal" observations you've posted and make them into an essay, and then we can put it on the site. I'll beta it for you! Wow. That's the nicest & scariest post I've ever read. All of my Aspect theories keep undergoing revisions as the episodes progress, though. I'd hate to embarrass S3 with a faulty theory. Or maybe the entire premise is totally wrong in the first place and I keep noticing stuff that Joss never intended. Have I mentioned that your post was scary? May I just say: to you and Sara and Nan and Spring. I don't know how you all can be so insightful, entertaining and *coherent* week after week. Linda, I'll take a stab at it when I've had a chance to watch all of the episodes, though. I think I've figured out Simon and I don't know quite where to post it. P.S. Thank you for your flattering & scary post as well as the beta volunteering, oh ... thou.
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Post by Linda on Sept 7, 2004 4:37:57 GMT -5
That's a very neat observation, Linda. With Wash safe and out of harm's way, Mal had no reason to fight to live anymore. But there should've been hope. Thanks, Karen. I actually think there was hope, though. It's just that sometimes the universe can be cruel and deadly. So that when one of your reasons for keeping it together is taken away, you may end up overwhelmed. And I think that the moral of the episode seems to be that you can recover from being mostly dead with a little help from your friends. ;D (That really was a nice three-shot of Zoe, Jayne and Wash getting Mal's torturer for him.) Linda, have I mentioned that this was one of my favorite episodes?
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Post by Nickim on Sept 7, 2004 7:21:07 GMT -5
That's a very neat observation, Linda. With Wash safe and out of harm's way, Mal had no reason to fight to live anymore. But there should've been hope. Mal's "family" was safe, and that's all that mattered. Look at Mal's face when the young kid gets killed at the battle of Serenity Valley--he's devastated, cause he's failed (in his mind) to protect his "child". Mal, just like most parents, would rather suffer and die himself than see any of his "children" suffer.
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Post by Queen E on Sept 7, 2004 10:45:47 GMT -5
Wow. That's the nicest & scariest post I've ever read. All of my Aspect theories keep undergoing revisions as the episodes progress, though. I'd hate to embarrass S3 with a faulty theory. Or maybe the entire premise is totally wrong in the first place and I keep noticing stuff that Joss never intended. Have I mentioned that your post was scary? May I just say: to you and Sara and Nan and Spring. I don't know how you all can be so insightful, entertaining and *coherent* week after week. Linda, I'll take a stab at it when I've had a chance to watch all of the episodes, though. I think I've figured out Simon and I don't know quite where to post it. P.S. Thank you for your flattering & scary post as well as the beta volunteering, oh ... thou. You know I do love being scary... And don't worry; there is plenty I've been wrong about, in posts, Angelphile, and my OMWF essay. Or at least gave it my own spin...it's all how we view it and what we take away from it. Looking forward to reading it; happy dance!
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Post by spacecat1974 on Sept 20, 2009 12:45:20 GMT -5
Whisky tango foxtrot, batman!
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