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Post by Nickim on Aug 26, 2004 13:17:09 GMT -5
I totally agree. River was definitely picking up on what Jayne was thinking. I have been torn as to whether she can actually read minds or if it's more like an empathic thing. The use of metaphores (Christmas, don't look in the closet, etc.) makes me think it's at least empathic. Uh huh. When the series was originally airing, and I was a lowly ScoopMe poster, I mentioned that that Jayne was sorta reminding me of a particular blonde vampire. The overwhelming audience like for and identification with the "baddie"...who we are slowly seeing get a soul (or a conscience, anyway.) Jayne's path was yet another arc that was being explored. Nobody does this stuff like Joss Whedon and Co. ! ! ! And I loved the fact that the part that Wash is lugging around is the same part that broke in Out of Gas...and when he chucks it, it lands in a huge pile of the same. The only thing..I hope Kaylee picked up a few of them along with the parts for the abulance. I had a problem with the clutch cable on my motorcycle breaking repeatedly...unrepairably. Now, if you look in my saddle bag you will see a spare coiled up. Not a complex part, no, but you break one and you get stuck in the middle of nowhere. It's not easy to ride a bike when you can't shift...which I know from experience. And a final question: They built this nice ambulance from junked parts... what did they do with it later? I don't recall ever seeing it in a hold on the ship later on. I guess perhaps they sold it on some other moon soon after for a profit. Vlad I never noticed the detail about the part Wash threw away--just don't have a "mechanical mind" I guess. Seems like all the "small" parts for vehicles are "nothing" unless "you ain't got one." I wondered the same thing about the ambulance, though. Just think how much money Kaylee could be making working as a mechanic on the Core! She could have her pick of fancy dresses. But, being the kind of person she is, it's probably never even occurred to her how valuable she really is.
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Post by Linda on Aug 31, 2004 9:03:57 GMT -5
Thoughts about Ariel. <snipped only for space> My God! Why did they cancel this show?! I mean, I know I’ve said it before, but WTF?!!? * Talk about some group dynamics finally really clicking with me on this umpteenth viewing. Everyone else has probably already figured this out, but I really hadn’t noticed the interplay between Jayne and Mal that is the real reason behind Jayne’s later action in turning Simon and River into the Feds. I mean, yes, he doesn’t like them. Yes, he wanted the money. Yes, he was pissed about River attacking him. (And rightly so. Just ‘cuz he’s wrong about how he handles it and totally wrong to try and turn them in doesn’t make it right that she cut him. And doesn’t make him wrong when he told Mal she was a potential danger to the whole crew. She is.) But the real reason why Jayne betrays River and Simon – why he does it now instead of earlier or later? Look at the scene in the infirmary. Jayne keeps looking and talking to Mal. He’s trying to do the right thing at first. He’s complaining to his captain about a danger. A real danger. One that just cut his chest open with a knife. But this is Mal and Jayne we’re talking about here and they both come to the conversation with their own issues and preconceived notions. Mal knows that he has to keep Jayne in line – has to be tough with him and make sure he doesn’t try to take over. So, the minute Jayne says something that sounds like an ultimatum – “You don't pitch her off this boat right now, I swear to you...” he cuts him off. “What? What are you swearing, Jayne?” But all Jayne is hearing is his captain apparently taking the side of these new folks over him, calling them “crew”. Jayne doesn’t hear that Mal would say this about anyone, including him – he can’t hear this, he’s got his own previous experiences which don’t seem to indicate a lot of loyalty or concern about your shipmates. Not from his side, but we gotta assume not towards him either. We should be forewarned when Jayne is too uncharacteristically “ok” with it all when they are riding down in the ambulance. Talking about how the doc came up with a good plan (and it was good) and that “nothin’ buys bygones better than cash” and “long as I get paid I’m happy”. Jayne doesn’t talk about “being happy”. So why now? ‘Cuz he’s most decidedly not happy. So we have all the emotional underpinnings for the later actions. And this is why Mal is so angry (“you did it to me”) and this is why it takes a while for Jayne to understand why Mal is so angry (“wasn’t personal”) – ‘cuz Jayne doesn’t want Simon and River to be crew – he’s jealous – and Mal has already decided they are. <snipped for space> Lola Cool! Eetah! After reading Sara's review of Jaynestown, I was thinking that the thing that Jayne wants the most is Respect. And, as you pointed out, he doesn't feel he's getting it from Mal here. Kinda understandable: "My days of not taking you seriously are finally coming to a middle." (Hee!) But in Jaynestown, when Jayne experiences the respect of the Mudders, he realizes how much it's really worth to him. (Side note: I don't think he made the conscious connection that the Mudders' respect meant more to him than the cash he'd dropped.) And he internalizes the sense of right/wrong deserving/underserving (for the first time ever, I believe) because of it -- a general feeling of proto-shame, maybe. But what Jayne doesn't see is that Mal's being absolutely straight with him on what he's requiring above all: loyalty to crew. And Jayne needs to realize he will never get the respect from Mal that he craves until he learns this lesson. And he begins to learn it here. Eetah with everyone who posted that Jayne can now feel shame. Progress!
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Post by Linda on Aug 31, 2004 9:07:52 GMT -5
<snip> Uh huh. When the series was originally airing, and I was a lowly ScoopMe poster, I mentioned that that Jayne was sorta reminding me of a particular blonde vampire. The overwhelming audience like for and identification with the "baddie"...who we are slowly seeing get a soul (or a conscience, anyway.) Jayne's path was yet another arc that was being explored. Nobody does this stuff like Joss Whedon and Co. ! ! ! <snip> Vlad Eeetah! I actually think that the root of Jayne's problem with loyalty to the Tams was the same kind of problem that chipped UNsouled Spike had: the Tams weren't within Jayne's concept of "me and mine." Until he begins to see their worth in the hospital. And by then it was too late. But their worthiness was also a component of the shame he finally feels in the end, I believe.
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Post by Linda on Aug 31, 2004 9:10:01 GMT -5
<snip> Random thoughts: River's comment that Simon should be working in one of the finest hospitals in the Core breaks my heart. I absolutely loved the totally proud smile on River's face when Simon saved the bypass patient. Hey, why haven't they developed a microsurgery technique so the chest cavity doesn't need to be opened? <snip> Eeetah! I thought this was a nice mirror of the joy that Simon showed as he watched River dance in Safe. Oh, and was anyone else reminded of Harrison Ford's version of The Fugitive during Simon's life-saveage?
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Post by Linda on Aug 31, 2004 9:17:45 GMT -5
Hi all!
Eetah that Mal is one scary guy. That final scene is just so great.
And thank you Rae, Lola, Rachael, Nicki, Erin, Karen & Vlad for your insightful posts.
Some other random thoughts:
Just before Jayne hustles them out of the diagnostic exam room, River's brain activity lights up and she screams. What is she sensing? Jayne's final decision to betray them (because it seemed he was on the fence about it after seeing Simon in action and the torture that River had already endured)? The Feds gathering? The Blue Hands on their way?
May I just add that I think Zoe has excellent timing and nerves of steel: she zaps that doctor in full view of a busy staircase (as seen behind Mal as he was pretty much confirming the officious doc's suspicions of them.) "Clear." Heh.
Oh, and according to the transcripts, River's first remark when she wakes up in the morgue is: Copper for a kiss.
Linda, there's a lot more I like about this episode, but I wanna go post some stuff about War Stories just for the rare feeling of being current. ;D
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Post by Lola m on Sept 2, 2004 12:05:55 GMT -5
Rachael mentioned those Russian nesting dolls that River was drawing.. When I was watching tonight, they caught my eye, too. They're called matroyshka dolls. "In provincial Russia before 1917 the name Matryona or Matryoshka was among the most common female names derived from the Latin root "matter" which means "mother". To this day matryoshka remains a symbol of motherhood and fertility. A doll with numerous off spring of dolls is a fine metaphor for the oldest symbol of human culture." I think this ties in nicely with Nicki's comments about "family". All the dolls nest nicely together, from the biggest to the smallest - a family. And the crew of Serenity nests nicely in her hull. Nice analogy, Karen! Makes me wonder even more about Jayne’s background and past experiences. Because this is a “realistic” show, we don’t have the demon/soul/no soul conundrums we had in BtVS and AtS. Instead we get to observe this society and see how just people can become good or bad, cruel or kind, caring or hard. How is a personality shaped by experience? How does someone learn to behave or feel differently? And why do they, why should they, change? Yep! Yep! Me too! Eeeep! Hadn’t thought of that comparison, but they have the same pleasant, creepy, smile (although still a human sized one) thing going on, don’t they? And the neat suits. **shivers** I’m enjoying discussing all these eps waaaaaay too much! **bounce,bounce** Lola
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Post by Lola m on Sept 2, 2004 12:07:16 GMT -5
So, Linda said: Cool! Eetah! After reading Sara's review of Jaynestown, I was thinking that the thing that Jayne wants the most is Respect. And, as you pointed out, he doesn't feel he's getting it from Mal here. Kinda understandable: "My days of not taking you seriously are finally coming to a middle." (Hee!) But in Jaynestown, when Jayne experiences the respect of the Mudders, he realizes how much it's really worth to him. (Side note: I don't think he made the conscious connection that the Mudders' respect meant more to him than the cash he'd dropped.) And he internalizes the sense of right/wrong deserving/underserving (for the first time ever, I believe) because of it -- a general feeling of proto-shame, maybe. But what Jayne doesn't see is that Mal's being absolutely straight with him on what he's requiring above all: loyalty to crew. And Jayne needs to realize he will never get the respect from Mal that he craves until he learns this lesson. And he begins to learn it here. Eetah with everyone who posted that Jayne can now feel shame. Progress! And: Eeetah! I actually think that the root of Jayne's problem with loyalty to the Tams was the same kind of problem that chipped UNsouled Spike had: the Tams weren't within Jayne's concept of "me and mine." Until he begins to see their worth in the hospital. And by then it was too late. But their worthiness was also a component of the shame he finally feels in the end, I believe. Yep! I like your idea about “respect” being a very large part of what Jayne is looking to Mal (and the rest of the crew) for – and yet it is a thing he doesn’t really understand yet. This experience with the Tams is a large learning curve for him, but an important one. Looks like you and me and Vlad (and probably others) are all seeing a heck of a lot of similar themes between Jayne and Spike. ;D Lola
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Post by Lola m on Sept 2, 2004 12:09:47 GMT -5
This is one of my favorite episodes just because of the ending. I watched it sometime late last week but I forgot to take notes so I'll have to rewatch to really talk about anything. The men with the blue hands scare me. Willing to kill those guys for even talking to River? Just what would they do to the crew of Serenity if they got a hold of them? Scary. Luckily, Mal is almost just as scary. He's a man who is very serious about his crew and loyalty. The man not have the same moral standards as the rest of society does but he does not put up with someone who threatens ANYONE on his crew, even if it's someone who has been with him a long time. Or, perhaps, especially in that case? I've said before that Jayne shows that he fears Mal, backing off when Mal appears and asks what is going on... Guess I get why now. Yep, Jayne is big and strong and good at his job. But he also knows how good Mal is – knows what Mal can do and knows that Mal is in charge. I think that’s a big part of why he keeps looking to Mal for ideas on how to behave. Yep! I’m so glad we got that hospital scene so that we could really see what he would be like in the setting he “should” be in. We’ve seen him be a great doctor on Serenity, in emergencies and so on, but it was good that we saw what “could have been” if his life hadn’t been derailed. Like Nikki said, that look that shows how proud River is of him is so heartbreaking and wonderful. A Fox hunt! Yes! Lola
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Sept 2, 2004 12:15:34 GMT -5
Snipped just to save space. I was thinking Men in Black, also. Any contact with the aliens and you get zapped. Kachina dolls--finally find the real person hidden deep inside? The nesting Russian dolls are actually called matryoshkas. Kachinas are Hopi spirits as represented by the dolls (it's way more complicated than that, but that's the basics). Anne, just because it's one of those things I actually know a little about Edit: reading farther, I see that Karen beat me to it. Wrong dolls, but still a really good point about the nesting dolls. Kind of like dream-Fred's "This is only the first layer. Don't you wanna see how deep I go?" in "Underneath".
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Post by Kate (K8) on Apr 9, 2005 16:00:01 GMT -5
<snip> Finally, at the end, River's drawing Kachina dolls - those Russian dolls where you open one, and there's another inside of it, slightly different, and then another, and another, until finally you get to the center, a tiny little girl? It's interesting, and I'm almost certain it means something, but my brain won't tell me what. What if it's not about removing layers but more about putting up barriers or putting on a 'normal person' mask? In Safe River accuses Simon of dressing her up like " gorram doll" (Guess who's finally just got firefly, and angel season 1, DVDs )
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Post by Queen E on Apr 9, 2005 20:09:37 GMT -5
What if it's not about removing layers but more about putting up barriers or putting on a 'normal person' mask? In Safe River accuses Simon of dressing her up like " gorram doll" (Guess who's finally just got firefly, and angel season 1, DVDs ) Excellent observation! I never put those two moments together... And so lucky, seeing some of these for the first time...
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