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Post by Karen on Oct 16, 2005 12:37:00 GMT -5
Any line with the word "nothing" in it. Joss turned the whole concept on its head for this movie. Extra rich when you consider how it was used to describe Reavers in the series. ("It's amazing what nothing can do to a man.") Here, it describes the other Pax victims. River: Make them stop! They're all dead and they're all in my head and I can hear them and they're saying ... nothing! NeverEnding Story II the bad thing is the 'Nothing' make everyone all hollow way to fix it is to wish a heart into it caring fights the nothing bit different here with 'fan of all 7' deadly sins filling up the nothing. passion, the good and the bad of it, the whole variety, instead of all flat. What makes the stories.Yes. It's what makes the stories and it's what makes us human. People have been complaining that Joss's future (in "Serenity) doesn't look much different from our present. They feel he should've shown some advancement in civilization and the way people treat each other. In Joss's 'verse, a 'perfect' world - where everyone is 'good' doesn't exist - and isn't even really desired. A lot of people get so caught up in how imperfect the real world is and wish for 'a perfect life' or 'heaven on earth', that they forget to take care of each other in the 'now'. It's the moments that matter. Doesn't mean you should quit trying to make a better world, but to 'change' people to fit your idea of a better isn't right. Why try to improve on a really good grand design? Joss may not believe in God, but I think he's a fan of this world.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Oct 16, 2005 12:38:48 GMT -5
This is the future. Maybe they left a kid growing in a bottle somewhere. Safer. Ewww. Safer doesn't necessarily mean better. have you read the Vorkosigan books? amongst other things, explore the social ramifications of baby-in-a-bottle technology all kinds of safer, to mother and baby, with added freedom
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Post by Karen on Oct 16, 2005 12:52:03 GMT -5
Ewww. Safer doesn't necessarily mean better. have you read the Vorkosigan books? amongst other things, explore the social ramifications of baby-in-a-bottle technology all kinds of safer, to mother and baby, with added freedom No, I haven't read the Vorkosigan books (down Sue! ). I heard they were good. The freedom would be nice, I suppose. Seems wrong, to mess or try to trump mother nature to such an extreme. Are tube babies SOP for all mankind in that 'verse?
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Post by Sue on Oct 16, 2005 14:52:50 GMT -5
have you read the Vorkosigan books? amongst other things, explore the social ramifications of baby-in-a-bottle technology all kinds of safer, to mother and baby, with added freedom No, I haven't read the Vorkosigan books (down Sue! ). I heard they were good. The freedom would be nice, I suppose. Seems wrong, to mess or try to trump mother nature to such an extreme. Are tube babies SOP for all mankind in that 'verse? Go becca! Go Miles! In the Vorkosigan universe there are a large number of settled planets separated by enourmous distances, so cultural development from planet to planet (all are humanoid, I'll have to reread to recall if they share some distant common ancestor which would seem likely) or, if you will, civilization to civilization was diverged wildly. Sexual mores, male/female roles, technology, etc all going off on wildly different paths. Miles' planet in particular got totally cut off for many years and sort of "fell back" in many ways into a sort of Medivalism, so is in a bit of a shock with regard to catching up both technologically and culturally. Bit debate about which is "better": natural birth vs. artificial womb (Sort of the nursing vs. bottle-feeding debate of decades ago.) is a big deal on some planets/cultures.
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Post by Sue on Oct 16, 2005 15:16:15 GMT -5
Hoping to read thru and respond to entire thread as soon as I send off the VM review.
But had to say:
1. Firefly DVDs are up to #4 today at Amazon (from 6 yesterday).
2. Went for third viewing yesterday. Had planned to go in a group of 10 of us---5 couples and everyone ditched but one of the wives. Boo. BUT:
June loved it; borrowed my Firefly DVDs and was already planning on taking her husband and three sons and their girl friends. Another couple promised to go; and Mary Ann didn't go yesterday, cause she was taking someone else to her 4th viewing today.
I pimped it again to some young people at church this morning and could just SCREAM at the fact that nobody seems to have ever heard of it. Jim says the name is a clear drawback (VS. stuff like "Doom" etc.)
Finally, actual movie comments:
Themes:
1. LOVE is a enormously powerful force to be reckoned with. (And for the good; no examples of misguided/misused love here: Simon for River; River for Simon; Wash and Zoe; even Kaylee's infatuation for Simon is life-affirming/compelling; Mal's for Serenity.)
2. BELIEF is an enormously powerful force to be reckoned with. But here we have examples of both "good" belief and "bad" belief. Altho we get the impression that Book just wants Mal to believe in something we are not told that blind belief in just anything is automatically good. It is clearly demonstrated that one's belief must be backed up with both facts and truth. The Operative's blind belief in the Alliance---it's motives and methods---without knowledge of all the facts leads to horrible, horrible consequences and the deaths of hundreds (or more) of innocent "bystanders" (folk who have dealt with Mal).
Of course, Mal's eventual belief in getting out the signal also leads to a huge war and thousands of deaths. OF course, if you follow the action back far enough those deaths can be laid not at Mal's feet, but on the heads of the Alliance as well, since they created the Reavers in the first place.
Additionally, one's beliefs, while "personal", tend to have an effect on the people one is close to.
Also interesting were The Operative's parting comments about not being seen. (Can't quote cause have no memory cells, but something about there being nothing there to see.) Having lost his Belief, he is now.....nothing; invisible.
3. Government intervention/meddling for the "good of the people" without oversight is a really, really, really bad thing.
4. Forcing change on people from the outside not so good and may result in unforeseen/unintended consequences which come back to bite you in the ass.
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There has been some comment on if there is ever an sequel whether it would have Zoe dealing with the emotional fallout of Wash's death. I'm thinking that there will be a whole bunch of emotional fallout come down on Mal as well, like a ton of bricks: Wash, Book, other bystanders.
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More numbers:
One site projects that the eventual American box office will only reach about $28 million all told. As well, even with the great showings in UK and Australia the entire International BO for the first weekend was just over $3 million. Lots and lots and lots less theaters in places other than the U.S. and less movie goers.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Oct 16, 2005 15:38:49 GMT -5
Hoping to read thru and respond to entire thread as soon as I send off the VM review. But had to say: 1. Firefly DVDs are up to #4 today at Amazon (from 6 yesterday). I tried to buy them when I got home turns out the ones I clicked were the US version because the UK version is showing as limited availability/sold out everywhere I looked. Don't know how many there were in the first place of course. but I can play US DVDs so no worries anyway.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Oct 16, 2005 15:41:33 GMT -5
Of course, Mal's eventual belief in getting out the signal also leads to a huge war and thousands of deaths. OF course, if you follow the action back far enough those deaths can be laid not at Mal's feet, but on the heads of the Alliance as well, since they created the Reavers in the first place. big battle, didn't think it was a war (wars have many battles) also, it was the alliance guys jobs to stop the reavers anyway they just didn't expect to be doing that much of it all at once right then
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Post by Sue on Oct 16, 2005 16:33:37 GMT -5
Of course, Mal's eventual belief in getting out the signal also leads to a huge war and thousands of deaths. OF course, if you follow the action back far enough those deaths can be laid not at Mal's feet, but on the heads of the Alliance as well, since they created the Reavers in the first place. big battle, didn't think it was a war (wars have many battles) also, it was the alliance guys jobs to stop the reavers anyway they just didn't expect to be doing that much of it all at once right then Yes, battle, not war. I got the distinct impression that the Alliance was mostly just staying out of Reaver space and ignoring the problem. Since at least a few of the very high ups knew how the Reavers had been created, maybe they were just hoping that they would eventually die out? Hard to imagine baby Reavers being nurtured to adulthood. How altered, one wonders, were the Reavers? Down to essential DNA? Wouldn't offspring be born human? 30 million on Miranda. 99.9% died (IF I recall correctly). .1% of 30 million = "only" 30,000 (approx) Reavers.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Oct 16, 2005 17:47:05 GMT -5
Went for the second time, probably won't manage to get to a theatre again. There were only a few people when we got there, but it pretty much filled up.
The people in back of us brought their kid, who spent the first two-thirds or so of the movie asking "Who's that? What is he doing? Why did she do that?", and, when Mal was looking at the record of Inara, "Is that Miranda?". #headbang# Some people need to teach their children manners.
The couple in front of us was silent, until Wash, when the woman was so shocked she said "Oh, no, Wash!". My feelings exactly. They stayed until the end of the credits, then went out ahead of us, saying, "Wow, that was intense".
As for me, the second time around was even better, as I had more time to notice small things. I also noticed that in many of Wash's shots the light shone directly on his face, and he got a lot of the good lines, also that Zoe maintained physical contact with him, even if it was just a hand on his shoulder, whenever possible.
I was okay until Wash said "I'm a leaf on the wind", at which point I lost it, quietly. Rachael, could you give me a few tips on despining? I require a spot of violence.
Zoe going all cold and machine-like was another emotional wallop - I really think she was hoping to go out there, take out as many Reavers as she could, and get herself killed. Afterwards, well, she's alive, but she's not really living. That will take time, and support from her Serenity family.
This has probably been mentioned, in fact I'm sure it has, but Mal and The Operative are two sides of the same coin. At the beginning, Mal has no faith, nothing to believe in (or so he tells himself), and The Operative has faith in the better world he's working to build. At the end, Mal is beginning to find something to believe in, and The Operative has lost everything, including, I think, faith in himself. "There is nothing to see", I think he says.
Anne, headachy again from the not-crying, gorram Joss making us care so much
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Oct 16, 2005 17:52:30 GMT -5
Also, Mal pretty, Simon pretty (and not effete), Wash pretty (damn has he got blue eyes).
Summer Glau is an amazing actress. Joss sure can pick 'em.
I keep forgetting - interesting bits of religion dropped here and there - the Buddhist shrine at Inara's Guildhouse (?), Shepherd Book's "That's not very Christian of you", Mr Universe's Jewish wedding, and the stones on the memorials. Nice blend of multi-faith.
Also, I love the low-tech tools - I swear we've got one of those racheting wrenches like the one Mal used to get the air vent open, and when he tried to hold off The Operative with a screwdriver... A screwdriver! #rofl1#
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Post by Queen E on Oct 16, 2005 18:18:01 GMT -5
Also, Mal pretty, Simon pretty (and not effete), Wash pretty (damn has he got blue eyes). Summer Glau is an amazing actress. Joss sure can pick 'em. I keep forgetting - interesting bits of religion dropped here and there - the Buddhist shrine at Inara's Guildhouse (?), Shepherd Book's "That's not very Christian of you", Mr Universe's Jewish wedding, and the stones on the memorials. Nice blend of multi-faith. Also, I love the low-tech tools - I swear we've got one of those racheting wrenches like the one Mal used to get the air vent open, and when he tried to hold off The Operative with a screwdriver... A screwdriver! Yes, and it proves that Joss is just as much of a 12-year-old as the rest of us...the Operative has a big sword, and Mal has a bitty screwdriver? Hee! It's all about the power, after all. I've now seen it thrice, and I still break out in goosebumps and shivers as Serenity goes into free fall...
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Oct 16, 2005 21:50:08 GMT -5
Also, Mal pretty, Simon pretty (and not effete), Wash pretty (damn has he got blue eyes). Summer Glau is an amazing actress. Joss sure can pick 'em. I keep forgetting - interesting bits of religion dropped here and there - the Buddhist shrine at Inara's Guildhouse (?), Shepherd Book's "That's not very Christian of you", Mr Universe's Jewish wedding, and the stones on the memorials. Nice blend of multi-faith. Also, I love the low-tech tools - I swear we've got one of those racheting wrenches like the one Mal used to get the air vent open, and when he tried to hold off The Operative with a screwdriver... A screwdriver! Yes, and it proves that Joss is just as much of a 12-year-old as the rest of us...the Operative has a big sword, and Mal has a bitty screwdriver? Hee! It's all about the power, after all.I've now seen it thrice, and I still break out in goosebumps and shivers as Serenity goes into free fall... Proof positive that size isn't everything. I don't know if it's me, or what, but the movie hit me harder this time. It seemed like more of an emotional wallop, and it's been haunting me all day. I think I need to read some Trollope to straighten out my head.
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Post by Lola m on Oct 17, 2005 7:09:12 GMT -5
Any line with the word "nothing" in it. Joss turned the whole concept on its head for this movie. Extra rich when you consider how it was used to describe Reavers in the series. ("It's amazing what nothing can do to a man.") Here, it describes the other Pax victims. River: Make them stop! They're all dead and they're all in my head and I can hear them and they're saying ... nothing! NeverEnding Story II the bad thing is the 'Nothing' make everyone all hollow way to fix it is to wish a heart into it caring fights the nothing bit different here with 'fan of all 7' deadly sins filling up the nothing. passion, the good and the bad of it, the whole variety, instead of all flat. What makes the stories. **nods nods nods** The scene were Mal rallies them to get the message out is very important. Because what makes him realise they need to do something is his understanding that "someday they'll try again". That what is wrong is them trying to "make people . . . better" (looking at River when he says it). Joss likes the whole messy human package.
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Post by Lola m on Oct 17, 2005 7:15:46 GMT -5
big battle, didn't think it was a war (wars have many battles) also, it was the alliance guys jobs to stop the reavers anyway they just didn't expect to be doing that much of it all at once right then Yes, battle, not war. I got the distinct impression that the Alliance was mostly just staying out of Reaver space and ignoring the problem. Since at least a few of the very high ups knew how the Reavers had been created, maybe they were just hoping that they would eventually die out? Hard to imagine baby Reavers being nurtured to adulthood. How altered, one wonders, were the Reavers? Down to essential DNA? Wouldn't offspring be born human? 30 million on Miranda. 99.9% died (IF I recall correctly). .1% of 30 million = "only" 30,000 (approx) Reavers. **nods in agreement with both** I think the Alliance didn't really care about the Reavers as long as they were "just" attacking the outer planets. Heck, in at least some way, they probably liked having something keeping the outer planet people messed up and occupied so they wouldn't be tempted to start another rebellion. The Alliance created the Reavers (unintentionally, yes, but then they also didn't clean up the mess). Like Mal said: "chickens coming home to roost" - the Alliance's mess attacking them for a change. And the common soldier on the Alliance ships is an "innocent" person being killed (likely the info about Reavers was closely held within the government) as the Operative says. But in one way, so are the Reavers themselves, who didn't ask to be chemically turned into monsters (as I assume Mal meant when he replied "more than you know" to the Operative).
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Post by Lola m on Oct 17, 2005 7:24:58 GMT -5
Went for the second time, probably won't manage to get to a theatre again. There were only a few people when we got there, but it pretty much filled up. The people in back of us brought their kid, who spent the first two-thirds or so of the movie asking "Who's that? What is he doing? Why did she do that?", and, when Mal was looking at the record of Inara, "Is that Miranda?". Some people need to teach their children manners. The couple in front of us was silent, until Wash, when the woman was so shocked she said "Oh, no, Wash!". My feelings exactly. They stayed until the end of the credits, then went out ahead of us, saying, "Wow, that was intense". As for me, the second time around was even better, as I had more time to notice small things. I also noticed that in many of Wash's shots the light shone directly on his face, and he got a lot of the good lines, also that Zoe maintained physical contact with him, even if it was just a hand on his shoulder, whenever possible. I was okay until Wash said "I'm a leaf on the wind", at which point I lost it, quietly. Rachael, could you give me a few tips on despining? I require a spot of violence. Zoe going all cold and machine-like was another emotional wallop - I really think she was hoping to go out there, take out as many Reavers as she could, and get herself killed. Afterwards, well, she's alive, but she's not really living. That will take time, and support from her Serenity family. This has probably been mentioned, in fact I'm sure it has, but Mal and The Operative are two sides of the same coin. At the beginning, Mal has no faith, nothing to believe in (or so he tells himself), and The Operative has faith in the better world he's working to build. At the end, Mal is beginning to find something to believe in, and The Operative has lost everything, including, I think, faith in himself. "There is nothing to see", I think he says. Anne, headachy again from the not-crying, gorram Joss making us care so much **nods nods nods to all of this** On this fourth viewing, I really really noticed what an excellent acting job that Nathan Fillion and Gina Torres do throughout the movie. The scene after the vault job where the Reavers attack is one amazing example. Nathan is so good at making you feel the despiration that Mal is feeling by this point. They really are "on the raggedy edge" with everything about to fall apart - largely due to the Tams. Gina is so perfect at walking that fine line between her total loyalty and commintment to Mal and the questions she has about his behavior. Even as she is honest with herself about not him not actually being wrong . . . it still just feels wrong to her that they left that man to the Reavers. Man! All soooooo good.
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