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Post by RAKSHA on Jun 16, 2003 23:47:41 GMT -5
OK, taking a controversial position here that everbody can and probably will ignore, just as the "hell dimensions" are not truly any approximation of Christian Hell, the "demons" that inhabit vampires are not the "demons" of Christian myth either. Lorne is a demon. Clem is a demon. Fiddler is a demon. Doyle was half demonic. They're merely other races, one of which are predators upon humans: vampires.
They are predators, and although we may not like becoming bedtime snacks, that DOES NOT MAKE THEM EVIL in any sort of moral sense. Dangerous, yes; evil, no. For practical purposes they're an alien non-corporeal life form inhabiting a human host. What kind of alien life form, I don't know, except that it's not in any way, shape, or form a demon except that's how everybody (Spike included) has been taught to think and speak of it. Turok-han apparently ALL owe allegance to the First; vampires don't. We don't see one single vampire doing the will of the First. Not one (except, of course, Spike when he's triggered: not acting of his own free will, as a vampire). And if they were automatically, by definition, evil, we should see not only the Turok-han but the Sunnydale vamps allied against Buffy, Spike, the Scoobys and the SITs.
And we don't see that.
So vamps are merely another race that happens to prey on our race. But they're not EVIL.
So there. [/color][/quote] Good points, Nan. Even though I don't agree that Vampires are not morally evil because they're members of a predator race that happens to prey upon us. Every vampire except for the Turok-han was originally a human being. And many of those humans were reared to respect laws that stated 'thou shall not kill' both in the religious and legal sense, exceptions being made for soldiers in wartime. They were also reared to believe, in most cases, that drinking human blood was unacceptable behavior. Now, after being turned into vampires, most vampires we've seen in BUFFY/ANGEL have NOT forgotten how to put their shoes on, or wear other clothes that were guess what, made by humans. They probably don't need to wear clothes, they don't feel the cold. But they do, because they remember that it was right, as humans, to do so. So they should, and I do believe, DO know, that biting people and draining their blood when there are other means of sustenance IS wrong. They just don't care. Demons on the other hand were never human (at least most of the ones we've seen). They were either original to our world, pre-dating humankind, or immigrants from other dimensions like Lorne. So I don't apply the same standards, since they never learned human laws and never were humans. And, as we've seen, many demons get by without doing particularly evil/homicidal things. Which makes a nasty point about human nature, when our conscience vanishes, we're the most evil life-form on the planet, baby! I wouldn't call the Turok-han evil, just dangerous animals needing to be killed.
Gail
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Post by RAKSHA on Jun 16, 2003 23:50:10 GMT -5
So I decided to play around and see what I could come up with. I've also posted this in the pic section. Love that picture! Spikey looks so raffishly cute. I'd love to see his and Angel's relationship develop into sort of a little brother and big brother kind of thing. I bet Spikey could be a VERY annoying little brother. (think vampire Dennis the Menace)
Gail
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jun 16, 2003 23:58:04 GMT -5
Good points, Nan. Even though I don't agree that Vampires are not morally evil because they're members of a predator race that happens to prey upon us. Every vampire except for the Turok-han was originally a human being. And many of those humans were reared to respect laws that stated 'thou shall not kill' both in the religious and legal sense, exceptions being made for soldiers in wartime. They were also reared to believe, in most cases, that drinking human blood was unacceptable behavior. Now, after being turned into vampires, most vampires we've seen in BUFFY/ANGEL have NOT forgotten how to put their shoes on, or wear other clothes that were guess what, made by humans. They probably don't need to wear clothes, they don't feel the cold. But they do, because they remember that it was right, as humans, to do so. So they should, and I do believe, DO know, that biting people and draining their blood when there are other means of sustenance IS wrong. They just don't care. Demons on the other hand were never human (at least most of the ones we've seen). They were either original to our world, pre-dating humankind, or immigrants from other dimensions like Lorne. So I don't apply the same standards, since they never learned human laws and never were humans. And, as we've seen, many demons get by without doing particularly evil/homicidal things. Which makes a nasty point about human nature, when our conscience vanishes, we're the most evil life-form on the planet, baby! I wouldn't call the Turok-han evil, just dangerous animals needing to be killed.
Gail Gail, I think you're confusing the person with the animating spirit (demon). The person knew these things you mention; the demon/spirit does not and chooses those (like clothes) that for whatever reason appeal to it; and doesn't see at all (as Spike does not) those things alien to it. The person who knew such things is not the same as the spirit/demon which has displaced him. True, Spike is exceptional among vampires in retaining the largest measure we've seen of his pre-turning emotional capacity. But for that same reason we can't judge by him what is true for vampires in general. The fact that he tries to adopt a human moral code doesn't mean other vamps are evil for neither doing so nor wanting to.
However, your distinguishing between different kinds of folk all of whom are referred to as demons is indeed a valid point. I guess my point in that regard is that we'd be better off talking strictly about vamps, and what they're like, without using the misleading catch-all word "demon" at all.
And thank you for responding to my post, which was (before editing) likely a bit more combative than necessary. But I get irked at the demon=evil assumption that comes up in many discussions. [/color]
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Post by Kerrie on Jun 17, 2003 0:49:21 GMT -5
Is it winter in Australia? (I almost said "down there"--do you think of yourself as "down" and other parts of the world as "up"?) What episode did you see this week? Yes, it is Winter in South Australia (although not in tropical, northern Australia) and don't I know it. It's freezing - not literally, of course, but chilly. This week, tonight, we're up to Dirty Girls, but I read in a TV guide that it wasn't on.I don't know why and I'm still in denial. Last week they changed AtS's night, from Wednesday to Thursday, so maybe they have done the same thing to BtVS. I am hoping that is what has/will happen.
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Post by Nickim on Jun 17, 2003 4:26:31 GMT -5
OK, taking a controversial position here
They are predators, and although we may not like becoming bedtime snacks, that DOES NOT MAKE THEM EVIL in any sort of moral sense. Dangerous, yes; evil, no. For practical purposes they're an alien non-corporeal life form inhabiting a human host. What kind of alien life form, I don't know, except that it's not in any way, shape, or form a demon except that's how everybody (Spike included) has been taught to think and speak of it. Turok-han apparently ALL owe allegance to the First; vampires don't. We don't see one single vampire doing the will of the First. Not one (except, of course, Spike when he's triggered: not acting of his own free will, as a vampire). And if they were automatically, by definition, evil, we should see not only the Turok-han but the Sunnydale vamps allied against Buffy, Spike, the Scoobys and the SITs.
And we don't see that.
So vamps are merely another race that happens to prey on our race. But they're not EVIL.
So there.
Moreover, when we jump to Part 11, I will repost this and hope for discussion rather than leave it languishing here past post 500. [/color][/quote] If vampires aren't evil, isn't morally wrong to slay them without seeking some form of truce? It would be like genocide of the alien race that uses the human host. Why couldn't vamps learn to only turn people who are already dying? Seems to me they pick the best, unlike wolves, who prey on the weak and sick.
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Post by raenstorm on Jun 17, 2003 5:38:21 GMT -5
Time to shut off the lights and let the janitors clean up.
Part 11 is now open for business!
*makes sure the room is empty, switches off the lights, and locks up*
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