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Post by Karen on Nov 23, 2003 17:17:20 GMT -5
SandyShores- thank you - I had completely forgotten that episode you mention- does that mean that we are tallking about an aristocracy of vampiric "values" that hierarchically(sp!) places intrinsic worth on amoral standards? I mean a lame vampire would not be a very efficent vampire- the Master was supremely evil- so that the values being promulgated by Angel are tantamount to a caste system. If he was more horrified by the choice of sire than by the fact that she wanted to become vampiric that implies a certain wanton disregard for the sanctity of "human" life. That seems hard to square with the mantle of Champion. ( I know that Darla's backstory was tragic and she felt robbed of any life by virtue of her being forced into prostitution and then sucumbing to ..was it typhus,syphilis, the plague or a virulent combination of all three?) Ellie - hi! I'd have to watch it again. But I don't think Angel was *more* horrified by her choice in vampire sire than the fact that she even considered it. I think he was using it as a way to convince her to really think about what she was choosing to do. I think he was way pass being horrified by Darla's choices. He knew her pretty well. In the end, she chose to be human and die like she was meant to before she was turned. And then Lindsey showed up with Darla. What a good episode. The Trial. Just watched it again. David Greenwald is the Master.
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Post by ellie on Nov 23, 2003 17:17:44 GMT -5
I have come to believe that the "familial demon" one inherits in the turning, most particularly with the established vampire lineages--the old blood, as it were--has at least as much effect on the resulting vampire personality as the character and inclinations of the human before turning. As I said before, Angelus and Spike have much more in common than would their human pre-turning counterparts in terms of inclination and character. And it's more than training or imitation of the Sire or dominant figure in a vampire clan. It's an inheritance *through the demon.* Angelus is an accomplished artist, for instance. No sign of that in pre-turning Liam, at least that we see. Spike gives up William's poetry but takes up razor-sharp intuitions about others' motivations, attitudes, and how Life operates ("You're not friends. You'll never be friends," etc. Not observations just about these particular people but about how Life, in general, operates--things he was conspicuously dim about in his William phase). I submit these things, basic qualities of perception, can't be taught. They must be innate. And they don't appear to come from the pre-turning human (unlike Dru's visions, admittedly)--they come, I submit, from the demon. If this is akin to estimating how many angels can dance on a pinhead, I'll continue to confine my musings on this topic to private speculation and to fiction. I just want to make the point that nature + nurture + turning do not account for the similarities we see among closely related vampires of the old lineage. Some connection between their respective demons is, I believe, also involved. Nan- Please do not confine these to private musings- I too had wondered wherefore the sudden artistry demonstrated by Angelus and Spike- does that mean that the demon blood ( in your apprehension of these things) sharpens a latent skill or it actually is created as an adjuct to the human? Interesting parallels to the idea of madness and creativity ....
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Nov 23, 2003 17:20:06 GMT -5
Somewhat belatedly, it's amusing to notice that awhile ago, I was going crazy trying to confirm that Spike's bike was a Yamaha. In going to the "Pics of the Week" portion of the S3 site, I noted there, the very picture I'd been speaking of--the one with Spike on the bike and the beginning letters Yam reversed (on the picture), clearly establishing it as a Yamaha motorcycle. Well, better late confirmation than none at all. I remember that conversation, and I thought either Rob or I had answered on the board...but maybe I just thought I had. Which isn't quite the same thing...sometimes good intentions aren't enough! *smile* I do remember that when I first saw the 'old' website, ages and ages ago, that picture was the one being displayed. Thought it cool then, and still do.
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Post by ellie on Nov 23, 2003 17:21:02 GMT -5
Ellie - hi! I'd have to watch it again. But I don't think Angel was *more* horrified by her choice in vampire sire than the fact that she even considered it. I think he was using it as a way to convince her to really think about what she was choosing to do. I think he was way pass being horrified by Darla's choices. He knew her pretty well. In the end, she chose to be human and die like she was meant to before she was turned. And then Lindsey showed up with Darla. What a good episode. The Trial. Just watched it again. David Greenwald is the Master. SandyShores- You have really piqued my interest in the episode now- I take it that is the second season of Angel? I am eagerly anticipating my family Xmas gift. Anne D (some pages back) was able to convince me to wait until Xmas- now you've started the hunger again- wicked girl
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 23, 2003 17:21:22 GMT -5
Nan, ADHD is typified not so much by a lack of attention, per se, but by a lack of appropriate control of attention. This manifests as both distractability and impulsiveness, and as an inability to move between one activity and another when the time comes. Otherwise, why would I be reading SSS when I really need to vacuum the drifts of blowing lint in the laundry room? Julia, " I always knew that the only thing better than killing a slayer would be f..." ranks as one of the great moments in lack of impulse control So lack of APPROPRIATE shifts is the characteristic methodology of ADHD--either extreme impatience or complete undistractability (hyperfocus). Extremely interesting, Julia (assuming it's STILL Julia)! Thank you so much for this insight! It's one I expect I'll still be processing for months, trying to think out all the ramifications to our dear Spike and to the Aurelians at large. I hadn't previously realized they were connected (the ADHD and the hyperfocus).
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Nov 23, 2003 17:22:49 GMT -5
It's a little early, but I think I'm the only tech around, and as I am very tired from my trip, and have caught up with all my 'chores' I'm going to take a nap for an unspecified period of time...so to avoid problems, I will go create part 74 and then come back and lock this part. I'd say you have 15 minutes, folks....
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 23, 2003 17:29:22 GMT -5
Nan- Please do not confine these to private musings- I too had wondered wherefore the sudden artistry demonstrated by Angelus and Spike- does that mean that the demon blood ( in your apprehension of these things) sharpens a latent skill or it actually is created as an adjuct to the human? Interesting parallels to the idea of madness and creativity .... I assume that the demon is not a blank slate--it also has abilities, inclinations, perceptual gifts, even if not a fully-formed personality. These gifts (one of which is the lack of conscience, but it's not the *only* one) are what the demon brings to the mix. The vampire is an amalgam of a particular demon and the previous human, but there appear to be *new* abilities and capacities, psychological as well as the more obvious physical ones, that the vampire can now draw on, develop, and use. I think we've gone in a way from one extreme to another--from assuming the previous human had NO part in what the vampire becomes (like Angel's aborted comment that Vamp Willow had a LOT of REAL Willow in what she manifested--gayness, for instance) to assuming the only thing to be taken into account is the previous human plus a lack of soul, morals, etc. In other words, the un-turned human MINUS things they formerly had. I submit that the vampire is that person PLUS certain things acquired from the demon, and that these are mental and emotional capabilities as well as physical ones.
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Post by Distractions R Us on Nov 23, 2003 17:52:07 GMT -5
Nan, yes, it's still Julia.
I seem to have dumped a reply to someone (sigh) can't remember what it was, either.
I think the "familial demon" of the Aurilians is distinguished by comparitively high intellectual ability (even daft Dru has it together enough to get Darla to Lindsay after they're burned, for instance) and an ability to see the possibilities of immortality in ways the run of the mill vamp lacks. The question I find myself asking, though, is whether this is nature in the sense of an essential quality of the demon in possession, so to speak, or a matter of choice of those who get turned.
Argh. I will try to learn to quote, and maybe even try to focus long enough to register, but it'll have to be at a time when I don't have a husband and two teenagers who are supposed to be cleaning house but instead seem more motivated to interrupt, and a weeks shopping to do.
Julia
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Nov 23, 2003 17:55:21 GMT -5
Part 74 is now up and ready...and this part is closed....
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