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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Feb 28, 2009 12:14:14 GMT -5
how do they program the actives to completely short-circuit all their free will, even as their characters? to put it another way - how does echo both think she is who she's programmed to be, AND know she's supposed to ignore that overlying programming if need be (like getting fired not stopping her from staying)? does anyone understand how the programming is supposed to work? I'm thinking they program in both explicit and implicit memories.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Feb 28, 2009 12:20:16 GMT -5
People always just do whatever you tell them to do? Yep. Including you, Echo. So. Is the active who is pretending to be a source in that role only to put the FBI guy off the scent? Or is he in that role for other reasons too? Damn! FBI kick-ass guy. Heh! They're hitting the fan-worship hard. WTF? Why is this Rayna encouraging the looney fan? Well, talk about obvious symbolism. Saying "I just want to be free" to Echo? As you're in a cage? Just a tad heavy handed, I thought, as if they are trying too hard (or don't trust the viewers to "get it.") Did you notice it was co-written by JED Whedon? I'm assuming one of Joss's brothers? And some female whose name I did not recogize. I found it *really* heavy handed, but Joss has done this on occasion on Buffy as well. In my experience, misogyny, sexism, victimization, and power and control issues are more likely to exist just under the surface. Like certain people saying, "I believe everyone is equal, but..." I find it much scarier than when people just come out and say what they really think and feel cause it's much harder to fight. Painting such broad strokes really takes away from the believability, too, IMHO.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Feb 28, 2009 12:26:37 GMT -5
This may change, but at this point, I'm thinking that you really have to be in the right mood to be able to deal with watching this show. You really have to have some defenses up. There's just such a general air of severe creepiness that pervades the whole thing, and coming home exhausted on a Friday night after a hard week at school or work, is probably not the right mood. Even geeks might not be in the mood. And since real time initial broadcast ratings still seem to be the most important thing, I don't think it bodes well. I really wish Joss had done this on Showtime or HBO, because then I think that it would be much more likely to survive.
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Post by artemis on Feb 28, 2009 13:24:17 GMT -5
I found it *really* heavy handed, but Joss has done this on occasion on Buffy as well. In my experience, misogyny, sexism, victimization, and power and control issues are more likely to exist just under the surface. Like certain people saying, "I believe everyone is equal, but..." I find it much scarier than when people just come out and say what they really think and feel cause it's much harder to fight. Painting such broad strokes really takes away from the believability, too, IMHO. i found it very heavy-handed myself, and i absolutely agree with the rest of your post. i find such beliefs/thoughts much creepier when they are implied or subtle rather than blatant and, as you said, much harder for many people even to acknowledge at that stage. it's like guerilla warfare vs. nation warfare, to make a really bad metaphor.
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Post by artemis on Feb 28, 2009 13:26:39 GMT -5
does anyone understand how the programming is supposed to work? I'm thinking they program in both explicit and implicit memories. that's what i've been gathering, but i'm wondering how they make the two levels of memory/will/whatever interact successfully. the subconscious programming kind of reminds me of cult brainwashing or something similar, but i don't know if it's supposed to...
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Feb 28, 2009 15:27:01 GMT -5
I'm thinking they program in both explicit and implicit memories. that's what i've been gathering, but i'm wondering how they make the two levels of memory/will/whatever interact successfully. the subconscious programming kind of reminds me of cult brainwashing or something similar, but i don't know if it's supposed to... Well, I was thinking of HM, that psych case study who lost the ability to make short term explicit memories. But he was still able to make implicit ones. In other words, he could still be taught new skills, but never had any memory of actually learning them. He would exhibit genuine surprise whenever he saw he could do something that he had no memory of ever doing before. I'm thinking that Tech Guy can manipulate things such that Echo implicitly has the desire to protect Ranya and has the skills to do it without also programming in explicit memories of reasons why or how. So that's why Echo had that moment where she knew she had to help Ranya despite not knowing why.
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Post by Sue on Feb 28, 2009 16:11:43 GMT -5
So, what was that whole scene with ED in her bra standing around while everyone else was clothed supposed to convey?
I mean, I know she was getting fitted by the wardrobe lady, but really?
Didn't like ep 3 as much as ep 2. Not too crazy so far about the P/PotW (Personality/Plotline of the Week), but still finding all of the background and underpinning stuff every interesting. [And, given the MofW all through the first season of Buffy I'm okay (so far) with that.]
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Post by Matthew on Feb 28, 2009 17:31:45 GMT -5
People always just do whatever you tell them to do? Yep. Including you, Echo. So. Is the active who is pretending to be a source in that role only to put the FBI guy off the scent? Or is he in that role for other reasons too? Damn! FBI kick-ass guy. Heh! They're hitting the fan-worship hard. WTF? Why is this Rayna encouraging the looney fan? Well, talk about obvious symbolism. Saying "I just want to be free" to Echo? As you're in a cage? Just a tad heavy handed, I thought, as if they are trying too hard (or don't trust the viewers to "get it.") Did you notice it was co-written by JED Whedon? I'm assuming one of Joss's brothers? And some female whose name I did not recogize. Maurissa Tancharoen. Jed's fiancee. They both helped co-write "Dr. Horrible" and Maurissa was one of the Hammer/Horrible fangirls.
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 28, 2009 21:35:05 GMT -5
I liked the little look that passed between Echo and the blonde girl at the very end, and how Echo gave a quick shake of her head, as if to say "no, don't show any recognition of me."
Something is definitely up there- the mindwipe "treatments" aren't working as well as they should.
The guy who does the mindwipes is still reminding me strongly of Warren, the BtVS girlmaker - his look, his mannerisms, his attitude.
I still haven't seen ep 2, and my viewing of both ep 1 and 3 was interrupted viewing, but I like Eliza in this and I hope it gets a chance.
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 28, 2009 21:36:05 GMT -5
So, what was that whole scene with ED in her bra standing around while everyone else was clothed supposed to convey? I mean, I know she was getting fitted by the wardrobe lady, but really? Didn't like ep 3 as much as ep 2. Not too crazy so far about the P/PotW (Personality/Plotline of the Week), but still finding all of the background and underpinning stuff every interesting. [And, given the MofW all through the first season of Buffy I'm okay (so far) with that.] It's so strange to see the Grrr-Arrrgh monster at the end . . .
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Post by rich on Feb 28, 2009 22:34:01 GMT -5
Have to say that I disagree with most folks here in that I enjoyed this week's episode much more than last week's. Hey, there are only so many remakes of "Most Dangerous Game" I want to watch. Highlights for me were the scene between Reed Diamond and Mindwipe Guy. I agree with Spring in that Mindwipe Guy is reminding me more and more of Warren. Also, like Spring, I enjoyed the little exchange of looks between Echo and Sierra at the end. But the biggest surprise for me was boss lady Adele. In the first episode I vaguely recall her saying that the Dollhouse exists for doing good or helping people or something like that. At the time I dismissed that as the self-serving crap of an obviously exploitative person. But when she held off Echo's handler from taking out psycho stalker guy, allowing Echo to do her client the most good psychologically, I realized that Adele meant what she said. I was not expecting that. I agree about the heavy handedness that marred this episode, but what I'm enjoying over all is a sense of the cast becoming more relaxed and confident with each other. I thought the two-scenes were much better this week. I think this is going to shape up to be a hell of an ensemble and when the writing improves mid-season, it's going to be a hell of a ride.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Feb 28, 2009 23:32:00 GMT -5
I liked the little look that passed between Echo and the blonde girl at the very end, and how Echo gave a quick shake of her head, as if to say "no, don't show any recognition of me." Something is definitely up there- the mindwipe "treatments" aren't working as well as they should. The guy who does the mindwipes is still reminding me strongly of Warren, the BtVS girlmaker - his look, his mannerisms, his attitude. I still haven't seen ep 2, and my viewing of both ep 1 and 3 was interrupted viewing, but I like Eliza in this and I hope it gets a chance. Yeah- and the same hubris. He absolutely doesn't recognize the law of unintended compromise, and it's bit him in the ass every episode. Julia, and the thing is, Reed Diamond's character is right about Echo- she's an emergent factor, and they are not in control of her.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Feb 28, 2009 23:38:00 GMT -5
Have to say that I disagree with most folks here in that I enjoyed this week's episode much more than last week's. Hey, there are only so many remakes of "Most Dangerous Game" I want to watch. Highlights for me were the scene between Reed Diamond and Mindwipe Guy. I agree with Spring in that Mindwipe Guy is reminding me more and more of Warren. Also, like Spring, I enjoyed the little exchange of looks between Echo and Sierra at the end. But the biggest surprise for me was boss lady Adele. In the first episode I vaguely recall her saying that the Dollhouse exists for doing good or helping people or something like that. At the time I dismissed that as the self-serving crap of an obviously exploitative person. But when she held off Echo's handler from taking out psycho stalker guy, allowing Echo to do her client the most good psychologically, I realized that Adele meant what she said. I was not expecting that. I agree about the heavy handedness that marred this episode, but what I'm enjoying over all is a sense of the cast becoming more relaxed and confident with each other. I thought the two-scenes were much better this week. I think this is going to shape up to be a hell of an ensemble and when the writing improves mid-season, it's going to be a hell of a ride. That's about where I am, too. I forget who said it upthread, but about Echo standing around in her bra: she was more covered in that scene than Rayna and the dancers were at any point in the story. Not to mention that's pretty much the way things really work in performance spaces (think about Pixi talking about dancers changing backstage, and wearing thongs at Disney World when they're usuaully just buck naked)! I think the fact that Rayna started out working for "the mouse" made her Britney Spears as much as the moves stolen from "All the Single Ladies" made her Beyonce, and I suspect the heavier-handed bits of exposition were meant as an answer to the complaints of misogyny. Julia, unreliably cognent, sorry
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Post by Jan on Mar 1, 2009 8:15:43 GMT -5
Whyfor with the taunting of the guy? Nice edit cut, from the gun shots at the concert to them taking shot FBI guy away. No, they didn't grow her in a lab, they just keep her there. Heh! "You are truly unwell." So, Rayna feels like Echo really is. Maybe Rayna IS what Echo is. Could her manager have had her "made?" There are either plenty of hints that this is so, or they're trying a little hard to make a parallel between her situation and Echo's.
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Mar 1, 2009 11:18:30 GMT -5
Understanding and recognising the valid criticisms of Dollhouse, I am still saying it's the most intriguing series on TV. I find it discomforting, thought provoking and very, very creepy. My mind is too distracted to be able to give a good anaysis, but I'm reading everyone else's comments with interest.
Bottom line: I like the show. I think it's going to live up to Joss' standard of flawed perfectionism.
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