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Post by SpringSummers on Mar 1, 2009 14:34:06 GMT -5
Understanding and recognising the valid criticisms of Dollhouse, I am still saying it's the most intriguing series on TV. I find it discomforting, thought provoking and very, very creepy. My mind is too distracted to be able to give a good anaysis, but I'm reading everyone else's comments with interest. Bottom line: I like the show. I think it's going to live up to Joss' standard of flawed perfectionism. Agree. Am more than willing to give it chance. I know what both Joss and Eliza can do, and I see all the signs that they will "deliver' if the series is given a chance. I wish I had the time to watch it a little more closely as I am currently confused about some basic stuff - I had no idea what was going on in the scene where the snoopy guy (detective? private investigator? G-man? FBI? Former police officer? I dunno) went to that deserted place and got beaten up, or why the young "Russian" guy who is really a "doll" is leading him around . . . or what the snoopy guy suspects the Russian guy of . . . And I can't remember any names for any of the characters right now except "Echo." But heck, I didn't start watching BtVS until I started watching S5 reruns on FX, while S6 was in summer re-runs on UPN. So I'll catch up.
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Post by Lola m on Mar 1, 2009 21:52:46 GMT -5
Has anyone else noticed a sort of minor theme with the clients? There comes a moment with all of them (or maybe just most) where it seems like they can't help but say something or react to the active in a way that acknowledges their fakeness and that . . . almost invites the active to admit they are a fake. Like they themselves don't quite believe the person is really totally wiped of all personality, like a part of them thinks the active is "faking" not knowing they are, well, a fake.
Or is this just me?
It really feels like I've noticed some verison of this with virtually all the clients and I'm wondering if this is a subtle mirroring of Echo starting to remember things. Also, it's an interesting human-ness about the clients. Wanting the power to have the person completely gone when they want them gone, but not quite believing it.
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Post by Lola m on Mar 1, 2009 21:58:35 GMT -5
I'm thinking they program in both explicit and implicit memories. that's what i've been gathering, but i'm wondering how they make the two levels of memory/will/whatever interact successfully. the subconscious programming kind of reminds me of cult brainwashing or something similar, but i don't know if it's supposed to... Yes, that is what I wonder about too. How to implant one that is hidden and one that is more surface. Also, the two layers like that are another nice reflection of Echo starting to show signs of remembering other things. Like, could she actually have her own original personality still under there, buried even more deeply than the secondary personality they put in there?
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Post by Lola m on Mar 1, 2009 22:00:35 GMT -5
I liked the little look that passed between Echo and the blonde girl at the very end, and how Echo gave a quick shake of her head, as if to say "no, don't show any recognition of me." Very nice touch. Means it's not just Echo that is having residual memories. His nerdishness, but also aggressive push. Yep.
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Post by Lola m on Mar 1, 2009 22:05:03 GMT -5
This may change, but at this point, I'm thinking that you really have to be in the right mood to be able to deal with watching this show. You really have to have some defenses up. There's just such a general air of severe creepiness that pervades the whole thing, and coming home exhausted on a Friday night after a hard week at school or work, is probably not the right mood. Even geeks might not be in the mood. And since real time initial broadcast ratings still seem to be the most important thing, I don't think it bodes well. I really wish Joss had done this on Showtime or HBO, because then I think that it would be much more likely to survive. I must be odd, but I'm not finding it hard to watch. I mean, yes I'm getting the issues about power, and finding the things that are meant to be creepy to be creepy, getting all the stuff about the story that I'm meant to get, but it's not hard for me to watch. And I'm someone who can't watch stuff like "Silence of the Lambs", for example. Different strokes, as usual, I guess.
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Post by Vlad on Mar 2, 2009 15:36:36 GMT -5
Congratulations, Agent S'cubie. Your previous mission was a success. Job well done. However, we have another matter that requires your immediate action. The agent codenamed: ERIN has written her second review of dollhouse. Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to re-hack into the S'cubie website and download the data, identity: TARGET: The Most Dangerous Game. Please use utmost caution in aquiring this target. Security has been heightened since your last data aquisition. As always, should you be captured, the S3 will disavow any knowledge or connection with you. Good luck, Agent S'cubie. This post will self-destruct in 5 seconds. Vlad
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Post by Rachael on Mar 2, 2009 17:42:24 GMT -5
I liked the little look that passed between Echo and the blonde girl at the very end, and how Echo gave a quick shake of her head, as if to say "no, don't show any recognition of me." Something is definitely up there- the mindwipe "treatments" aren't working as well as they should. The guy who does the mindwipes is still reminding me strongly of Warren, the BtVS girlmaker - his look, his mannerisms, his attitude. I still haven't seen ep 2, and my viewing of both ep 1 and 3 was interrupted viewing, but I like Eliza in this and I hope it gets a chance. He's sort of a Warren/Jonathon combo pack. All the moral ambiguity of Warren (before Warren went totally unambiguous) and some of the cluelessness of Jonathon. "Oh. Yeah, that sounds bad."
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Post by Karen on Mar 3, 2009 10:50:33 GMT -5
So, what was that whole scene with ED in her bra standing around while everyone else was clothed supposed to convey?I mean, I know she was getting fitted by the wardrobe lady, but really? Didn't like ep 3 as much as ep 2. Not too crazy so far about the P/PotW (Personality/Plotline of the Week), but still finding all of the background and underpinning stuff every interesting. [And, given the MofW all through the first season of Buffy I'm okay (so far) with that.] That ED has a kick-ass body? That the network is appealing to the 18-49 male demographic? That her bra was super cute? Seriously, other things it could be conveying was that although Echo looked ok with standing there in her bra top, that when asked to take it off in front of everyone and change, she kind of balked. A programming gliche? Another thing we found out was that the dolls are very expendable. If you are used as a body guard, there is a very good chance you could fulfill your contract with your life - like a previous doll that was mentioned by the Sierra's (name?) new handler. Very Watcher-like, the handlers. I liked the episode. ED has a really nice voice. I like that AA's character is in the know, and is being smart about how she uses the information. I like that there are 'fight' scenes. I missed that.
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Post by artemis on Mar 4, 2009 15:43:31 GMT -5
Has anyone else noticed a sort of minor theme with the clients? There comes a moment with all of them (or maybe just most) where it seems like they can't help but say something or react to the active in a way that acknowledges their fakeness and that . . . almost invites the active to admit they are a fake. Like they themselves don't quite believe the person is really totally wiped of all personality, like a part of them thinks the active is "faking" not knowing they are, well, a fake. Or is this just me? it's definitely not just you. i've noticed it in every episode we've seen so far, sometimes more explicit than others. it seems like they really do have a lot of difficulty believing it, even though they've asked for it. i find it interesting and sort of odd at the same time.
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Post by artemis on Mar 4, 2009 15:49:48 GMT -5
I wish I had the time to watch it a little more closely as I am currently confused about some basic stuff - I had no idea what was going on in the scene where the snoopy guy (detective? private investigator? G-man? FBI? Former police officer? I dunno) spring, he is an FBI agent. he is looking for the dollhouse and is on caroline's (echo's) trail, but so far (as far as i remember anyhow) we aren't quite sure why he's specifically looking for her. the other FBI agents mock his obsession with the dollhouse as believing in something like faeries or santa's warehouse, but others on the board have posited that perhaps they are a bit too mocking and thus maybe some of them really actually know about it and are being paid (or brainwashed) into covering it up.
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Post by artemis on Mar 4, 2009 15:56:26 GMT -5
Another thing we found out was that the dolls are very expendable. If you are used as a body guard, there is a very good chance you could fulfill your contract with your life - like a previous doll that was mentioned by the Sierra's (name?) new handler. the show had already hinted pretty strongly at that in the previous episode with the references to retiring echo to "the attic." (top security guy wanted to do that and adelle said no) do they have some sort of ready spring of would-be actives just waiting to take over for the current small number of actives? (either stored within the dollhouse or as yet un-mindwiped outside of it) it seems intuitively to me like they've put so much into the actives that they'd be reluctant to let them be so easily expendable, and yet they seem perfectly ready to just "attic" them or whatever else if it's most expedient. i suppose this is one of the ways in which it's supposed to most strongly mirror human trafficking operations. while real human trafficking operations have a heap more than six or so people at their 'disposal,' perhaps the dollhouse has other rooms with other actives and we just haven't seen them yet (or perhaps there are other dollhouses in other locations).
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Mar 8, 2009 13:59:22 GMT -5
Finally got around to watching this episode last night.
I'm sorry, I know I'll get thumped for this, but I still think there's an element of "eat your cake and have it, too" in the show - oh, look how exploited the poor girls are wandering around in their scanty garments, oh, let's show that again so you can really enjoy it be appalled by it. By pandering to the Fox ideal audience (teenage boys), Joss may be alienating his core audience (grownups).
This episode was also way too heavy-handed on the "they're all puppets" message. I get it - Echo's being used, Sierra's being used, Rayna's being used (and she used to work for Disney, nice little dig there).
Also, programmer guy is a combination of the worst aspects of Warren and Andrew, if you ask me. I really don't like him.
I said to The Husband, "Seriously, if this wasn't Joss, I'd give up on it". The Husband is of the opinion that Dollhouse would be a really good movie, but there isn't enough there for a TV series.
And then there was that bit at the end that made me sit up and take notice, when Echo and Sierra passed each other, and Echo shook her head, like, don't say anything, it isn't safe. There's definitely something going on there. Okay, I'm in for at least another episode or two, because I want to know what, if anything, they remember.
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Post by Lola m on Mar 9, 2009 12:12:35 GMT -5
Has anyone else noticed a sort of minor theme with the clients? There comes a moment with all of them (or maybe just most) where it seems like they can't help but say something or react to the active in a way that acknowledges their fakeness and that . . . almost invites the active to admit they are a fake. Like they themselves don't quite believe the person is really totally wiped of all personality, like a part of them thinks the active is "faking" not knowing they are, well, a fake. Or is this just me? it's definitely not just you. i've noticed it in every episode we've seen so far, sometimes more explicit than others. it seems like they really do have a lot of difficulty believing it, even though they've asked for it. i find it interesting and sort of odd at the same time. Thanks, artemis! **does the dance of "I'm not insane, or if I am, I have company** ;D
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Apr 12, 2009 19:28:40 GMT -5
Well put, Erin.
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Post by Lola m on Apr 12, 2009 21:08:27 GMT -5
Good points in your review, Erin. I think all of us were thinking we could see the hand of Fox execs here, wanting to make sure they had a lot of skin on display for, as you point out, the "18 to 34-year-old" male audience. Placed in a story that is, also as you point out, not that deep. The amazing depth of story we'll hit in just a few eps really brings home to me how Joss must have been constrained at first. Not that he isn't here in the overall themes, but the execution in these first eps seems so simplistic. You put it perfectly when you ask "where is the subtext". I've come to expect that with Joss' more mature work. And I always have such conflicting and complicated reactions to discussions about stories where the women are dressed scantily. Because, yes, exploitation to some extent. But also . . . I'm not immune to the ogling. How do I acknowledge my own hypocrisy? I will glady whoop and enjoy each new display of Tahmoh's chest, (or, to be totally honest, Eliza's legs in a skanky but tasty mini in a later ep) myself. If it's OK for me, then what do I get to say about anyone else? And it is out and out enjoyment of the sexiness of someone, of enjoying looking at them, let's not fool ourselves. So mostly, I guess, I'm glad that the stories are now more classically Joss-complex-deep. Because that way I can feel better about my own objectification. ;D
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