|
|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on May 19, 2004 5:05:21 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on May 19, 2004 14:36:01 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing your cogent thoughts on the ep Nan. I saw the Drogyn thing much the same way you did, but am basically open for anything for today's (TODAY'S!!) finale.
I wanted to comment on this observation you make in the quotes at the end:
Illyria: I play this game. It's pointless and annoys me and yet I'm compelled to play on. (It’s not just Crash Bandicoot she’s talking about.)
I noticed this too, and I really thought it reflected how Angel is also feeling - torn between wanting to end his "imprisonment" and feeling compelled, also, to play on.
Oh - can you believe you just have one more of these?? It just isn't sinking in for me!
Thanks to all you have added to my enjoyment of this Season. And by the way - love that avatar. A good cheerer-upper! Always pretty. Yes. Always pretty.
|
|
|
|
Post by lurawan on May 19, 2004 14:46:20 GMT -5
Nan: Insightful as always. In depth as always. I couldn't help but think of the analogy of all the "Saving Angel" groups who got together and showed the network folks that they couldn't dictate OUR will to choose. We couldn't stop them or beat them, but for a few brief shining moments, we got their attention. We let them know that we could work together and make our voices heard; that WE didn't agree with them, even if we couldn't change their decision. We got their gears to grind to a halt, if only for a moment. They HEARD it. Even if somehow they couldn't listen to it. Thanks to all the organizers of that effort. Life imitates art imitates life imitates art imitates life...
|
|
|
|
Post by Sue on May 19, 2004 15:56:27 GMT -5
Nan said:
Because I'm lazy I'm just going to quote what I posted on the episode thread on the main board regarding this:
And, since their minions on earth will be wiped out (even temporarily) it seems to me that it could take a while for them to get back around to hunting down Angel and crew. So--while yes they suspect that taking down CBT will eventually lead them to death at the hands of SP-minions, I do not think that they necessarily see the mission as a "suicide" mission.
And--even if it is--well it still needs to be done and who else in the world is capable of doing it?. It's like one of those WWII missions where a bridge behind enemy lines has to be dynamited for the battle to be effectively carried forward. Those who volunteer for the mission know that there is a severely increased chance that they will die, either in carrying out the original mission or when they get trapped behind enemy lines. But 1) it still has to be done--you can't just let the bridge stand there and impede the forward march of the "forces of good" (which is exactly what the Black Thorne are doing--they are currently and actively making the world a much eviler place) AND 2) there is always that slim hope that one's own forces will rush in and rescue you.
That's how I see the scenario. I do not see it as a hopeless or pointless suicide mission. (Back to the analogy above---even if the Germans rebuild the bridge, it still had to be taken out for that specific battle to be won. Taken out by soldiers who can't know if that one battle will significantly change the balance of the war or not, but can't risk the chance of not blowing it up because of the personal risk and high odds of getting killed.)
Not a suicide mission! An absolutely necessary battle in the war between good and evil. Extremely high risk, yes. Totally hopeless, no. (I think some of Angel's speech was over-the-top-Buffy-style rhetoric just to make sure his followers were aware of the risks)
-------------------------------------------
Additional thought since then.
There were at least three LOTR references in this ep, all related to Drogyn: He was called, "Aragorn", "Battlebrand" (which sounded very LOTR to me, wasn't somebody something-brand in that) and a third name: maybe "something's Bane" (like Ilsidur's Bane..)
Anyway. I see taking down the Circle as similar to unmaking the ring. Both are instruments of great power to EVIL. Both missions might result in death. Both still have to be done. If/when accomplished both will result in a period of time (possibly long) during which the power of evil will be considerably reduced.
Even after the ring was destroyed there were still ongoing and residual battles to fight against evil.
Oh, and--thanks for another great review, Nan.
People who lurk or are guests might also want to go over to the main board and check out Part 170 where we did all of our post episode posting.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on May 19, 2004 18:04:42 GMT -5
Nan: Insightful as always. In depth as always. I couldn't help but think of the analogy of all the "Saving Angel" groups who got together and showed the network folks that they couldn't dictate OUR will to choose. We couldn't stop them or beat them, but for a few brief shining moments, we got their attention. We let them know that we could work together and make our voices heard; that WE didn't agree with them, even if we couldn't change their decision. We got their gears to grind to a halt, if only for a moment. They HEARD it. Even if somehow they couldn't listen to it. Thanks to all the organizers of that effort. Life imitates art imitates life imitates art imitates life... Lurawan, from your lips to the ears of the PTB, whoever they are. The Jossverse must not, cannot end! |
|
|
|
Post by LostSoul on May 20, 2004 0:58:56 GMT -5
After watching TGIQ and Power Play, I couldn't help wondering the nature of W&H and the Circle of Black Thorn. W&H is a worldwide, multi-dimensional orgainization and I would expect the Circle to be no less. If W&H can rebuild and restaff their LA office after the Beast's attack in such short time, I would expect the Circle's member outside LA to fill in the void in no time. This leads to the question whether Angel's team could make any difference at all except in sacrificing themselves.
In the past, Angel's fight has been backed by the Power that Be through the visions & access to the Oracle. But the PTB has been MIA for such a long time making Angel's quest seems more futile with every passing minute. To me, it seems the PTB has already abandoned the fight and resolve to let evil prevail. Angel is like a knight/champion without his King, a ronan without a master. The only thing he can do is fighting one last battle, hoping for a glorious death, clinging to the thought that he matters and can make a difference, which may not be the reality he faces.
|
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on May 20, 2004 11:52:17 GMT -5
Nan said: Because I'm lazy I'm just going to quote what I posted on the episode thread on the main board regarding this: And, since their minions on earth will be wiped out (even temporarily) it seems to me that it could take a while for them to get back around to hunting down Angel and crew. So--while yes they suspect that taking down CBT will eventually lead them to death at the hands of SP-minions, I do not think that they necessarily see the mission as a "suicide" mission. And--even if it is--well it still needs to be done and who else in the world is capable of doing it?. It's like one of those WWII missions where a bridge behind enemy lines has to be dynamited for the battle to be effectively carried forward. Those who volunteer for the mission know that there is a severely increased chance that they will die, either in carrying out the original mission or when they get trapped behind enemy lines. But 1) it still has to be done--you can't just let the bridge stand there and impede the forward march of the "forces of good" (which is exactly what the Black Thorne are doing--they are currently and actively making the world a much eviler place) AND 2) there is always that slim hope that one's own forces will rush in and rescue you. That's how I see the scenario. I do not see it as a hopeless or pointless suicide mission. (Back to the analogy above---even if the Germans rebuild the bridge, it still had to be taken out for that specific battle to be won. Taken out by soldiers who can't know if that one battle will significantly change the balance of the war or not, but can't risk the chance of not blowing it up because of the personal risk and high odds of getting killed.) Not a suicide mission! An absolutely necessary battle in the war between good and evil. Extremely high risk, yes. Totally hopeless, no. (I think some of Angel's speech was over-the-top-Buffy-style rhetoric just to make sure his followers were aware of the risks) ------------------------------------------- Additional thought since then. There were at least three LOTR references in this ep, all related to Drogyn: He was called, "Aragorn", "Battlebrand" (which sounded very LOTR to me, wasn't somebody something-brand in that) and a third name: maybe "something's Bane" (like Ilsidur's Bane..) Anyway. I see taking down the Circle as similar to unmaking the ring. Both are instruments of great power to EVIL. Both missions might result in death. Both still have to be done. If/when accomplished both will result in a period of time (possibly long) during which the power of evil will be considerably reduced. Even after the ring was destroyed there were still ongoing and residual battles to fight against evil. Oh, and--thanks for another great review, Nan. People who lurk or are guests might also want to go over to the main board and check out Part 170 where we did all of our post episode posting. Sue - I definitely agree it is not a hopeless or pointless suicide mission. It's hopefull, and it has a point - but it's still suicidal. |
|
|
|
Post by LadyDi on May 20, 2004 12:23:36 GMT -5
Great job as always.
Loved how you pointed out Angel's unilateral actions. I was ready to give him props for his dealings with Nina, until he handed her those tickets and basically ordered her to leave town.
|
|
makd too lazy to log
Guest
|
Post by makd too lazy to log on May 22, 2004 0:18:20 GMT -5
Another great review! Thank you, Nan.
I've already posted my comments on the Main Board, so I'll just say a few things here.
Aside from the major impressions, what most amazed me was the totality of what's been happening in Spike's life:
he has a job.
He has an apartment that's not a crypt or a concretey basement. Yeah, it's a basement apartment,but it's clean; it's pleasant; it's well-lit.
He has friends and allies who don't treat him with suspicion and sarcasm, and who welcome and value his input.
He's generous in lending the use of his toys.
He's moving on from Buffy.
He's part of a team that fights evil.
Our boy is growing up. That's wonderful news. And, it's only taken him 124 years.
Oh, and he's still a snarky, game-boy playing vamp, but we can live with that.
thanks again, Nan.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nickim on May 22, 2004 10:31:22 GMT -5
Great review, Nan. I'm still trying to catch up the ones I put off reading. One comment about Hamilton and Eve. Eve didn't seem to have any power when Spike and Lorne questioned her. Perhaps the SP's realized they needed to send in some muscle after her betrayal. Drogryn's appearance was so different in the torture that I thought it was a different person. Maybe they pulled all his hair out as part of the torture?
|
|
|
|
Post by Karen on May 22, 2004 12:12:17 GMT -5
Great job as always. Loved how you pointed out Angel's unilateral actions. I was ready to give him props for his dealings with Nina, until he handed her those tickets and basically ordered her to leave town. LadyDi - I really wonder if Angel will ever get over the urge to keep his girls safe from him. Great review, Nan! One thing that has puzzled me. I need to back and rewatch Power Play, but exactly why did Angel jump through the fire to the Black Thorn's ritual? Did they tell him that this would be his final test? I don't think he know that it was Drogyn that would be on the other side of that wall of fire. When Angle saw the Black Thorn beating what is probably an innocent - was his killing of him the test that the Black Thorn had for him? Not a good thing that Angel did in either case. |
|
|
|
Post by Linda on Jun 14, 2004 3:30:54 GMT -5
Hi Nan!
In the flurry of activity and emotion of the final episode, I did not realize that I had not added my kudos on your Power Play analysis.
So without further ado: Kudos!
This was another excellent analysis. And, from the perspective of having already seen the finale, wow.
I especially appreciate your pointing out the inner/outer mismatch of both Angel and Illyria. Over the course of this episode and the next, they each ironically and essentially (and temporarily?) become what they appear to be. In Angel's case, a megalomaniacal power-hungry bastard, willing to kill an innocent to get what he wants and to issue ultimatums to his closest lieutenants. In Illyria's case, Fred, comforting Wes in his last extremity.
Nan, I just can't thank you enough for adding so much depth to my enjoyment of the Jossverse.
Mahalo & Aloha,
Linda, who is looking forward to the insights of your Not Fade Away analysis, but not so much the finality of it all, so take as much time as you need ...
|
|
|
|
Post by Mick on Aug 30, 2005 2:33:30 GMT -5
Does anyone know where I can find the symbol for the black thorn?
|
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Aug 30, 2005 7:17:06 GMT -5
|
|
