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Post by Kate (K8) on Aug 5, 2004 16:05:31 GMT -5
Xander definitely fears not be noticed for sure the most. Or not having *Buffy* notice him? One or two Chips? Uhm, very interesting question. Could be the split up in Chipless Spike or Chipped Spike. (Good reason for Toth to fire on him). DemonSpike wins in a normal fight from WilliamSpike, I'm sure. But, could WilliamSpike get help? Imagine how frustrating that would be for still-chipped-Spike! ;D WilliamSpike may get help from Scoobies just because their objective would be the same i.e stopping DemonSpike, since DemonSpike would probably be doing lots of evil things.
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Post by Lissa on Aug 5, 2004 16:47:43 GMT -5
First, thanks so much, Lissa, for the feedback on my analyses. I am glad you are enjoying them!Second: I don't think Toth was trying to hit Spike - he was aiming for Buffy all the way. I do think that Toth hitting Spike's lamp had a bit of the metaphorical going for it. Spike, trying to find light in the dump. Evil getting in the way of Spike's plan to get a little light. Interesing thought about what the two Spikes would have been like if he had been hit. My guess is a "William" type and a "Big Bad" type. When Xander got back together he was completely back to normal, so I guess Spike would have been too. Interesting observations. IX is the bigger risk-taker with physical risks; CX with emotional risks. I thought this meant more that Anya wanted them both. Though of course, CX was much more emotionally available to her, so you may have something there. I did believe Riley though, when he told Xander that Anya wanted "the whole package." My opinion is that the shot from Toth is unrelated to the walk-away in Hell's Bells. Except to say that it helps us see that InsecureXander exists and has a negative impact on the A/X relationship. I hadn't thought about Anya as a "replacement" but you are right, that implication exists, since the parallels are X is to A as B is to R. My guess would be that Anya is a "Buffy-replacement." I think Xander still has an underlying thing for Buffy at this point. I don't think he really, truly gets 100% over it until Season 7. I don't know if I'd put it in terms of Spike being a "Jesse replacement" but I do think that Spike filled the shoes of being Xander's buddy after Oz left. It wasn't a very traditional buddy relationship - all the snarking and neither one ever really admitting that he liked the other the slightest little bit - but when it came to buddies, they didn't really have anyone but each other (Well - Spike got Clem in Season 6). Again, thanks for the feedback and interesting thoughts. Feel free and welcome to add your opinions and comments to any of the analyses. Thanks Yeah, Anya wanted them both. But, Xander returned in the IX's cloths, hinting that the insecure part is stronger than the confident part within him. Was this magically created or has that always been a part of Xander? Anya said: I liked it the other way. Put him back. That was a big hint. (Of course I thought she meant the two Xander separated for sex, but there is definitely more.) Willow however smiled proudly, I thinks she likes IX more. It's the Xander she grew up with. The Xander she knew. WILLOW: He knew stuff! He, he did the Snoopy dance. (Another shot of Giles reading) Buffy, it was Xander, and he needs us. GILES: Oh, dear lord. RILEY: Buffy, our Xander, did he seem a little- BUFFY: He seemed kind of forceful and confident. WILLOW: That's not Xander. GILES: I said, "Oh, dear lord." Willow has a wrong picture of Xander. Noticed that at both times, right after Willow spoke, Giles says Oh, dear lord. And Willow herself needs IX. IX is the one who also carries a big part of his heart, a big part that Willow loves. I think it's the insecure part that finally brought back Willow in Grave. (Okay, over analysing, Willow needs them both, but still . . .) The whole episode is filled with hints. All over again. Love the little light metaphore. Didn't think of that. Of course he loves Buffy. But, I do think he thought he had finally found someone in Faith who could understand him. Maybe she was a replacement for Buffy, but I don't think so. Her background made the connection. Only she broke it. Just like Angel(us) did with Buffy. Sure, Spike was the only other male with which he could be a buddy, but I think there is more. Xander staked Jesse, a vampire. Spike's a vampire too. Xander never could connect with Angel, jealousy and probably pain for Jesse. But, if he could connect with Spike, then that would give him a way of 'redemption'.
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Post by Rob on Aug 5, 2004 18:16:29 GMT -5
Thanks Yeah, Anya wanted them both. But, Xander returned in the IX's cloths, hinting that the insecure part is stronger than the confident part within him. Was this magically created or has that always been a part of Xander? Anya said: I liked it the other way. Put him back. That was a big hint. (Of course I thought she meant the two Xander separated for sex, but there is definitely more.) Willow however smiled proudly, I thinks she likes IX more. It's the Xander she grew up with. The Xander she knew. These are interesting observations, Lissa. One can only speculate at this point, but if Season 7 Xander were spilt in two, he'd wear Confident Xander's clothes at the time of rejoining. He's not the same person by a long shot. In fact, the events of late Season 7 reflect just how much the dynamic within the Scoobies has changed since the arrival of the Potentials: Xander has unwittingly usurped Giles as the "respected leader" of the group (aside from Buffy herself, that is). This explains why the group fell to pieces when he got hurt: he was (and forever will be) Buffy's rock. Shake him loose, and everything comes crashing down. When he spoke out against her, it was all over but the shouting. Losing Willow and Giles was a disturbing shock, but Xander...he and Buffy had disagreed intensely before, of course (generally over vamps as I recall), but never when it came to the mission. Agreement or not, Xander followed Buffy into battle. It was never even a question. The moment he publicly shows a shadow of doubt in her...game, set and match. He's his same goofy self at times, but when he intends to be heard, everyone pays attention (examples: Dawn during the 'extraordinary' speech in "Potential," the entire room in "Dirty Girls" and "Empty Places"). Just enough Insecure Xander keeps him likable, but Confident Xander has pretty much taken control at this point. He's found his place, and finallly realized just how important he is (as does Buffy - FINALLY - in "End of Days"). Not sure if there was a point to all this...but it was fun writing, at least.
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Post by Lissa on Aug 5, 2004 18:46:07 GMT -5
These are interesting observations, Lissa. One can only speculate at this point, but if Season 7 Xander were spilt in two, he'd wear Confident Xander's clothes at the time of rejoining. He's not the same person by a long shot. In fact, the events of late Season 7 reflect just how much the dynamic within the Scoobies has changed since the arrival of the Potentials: Xander has unwittingly usurped Giles as the "respected leader" of the group (aside from Buffy herself, that is). This explains why the group fell to pieces when he got hurt: he was (and forever will be) Buffy's rock. Shake him loose, and everything comes crashing down. When he spoke out against her, it was all over but the shouting. Losing Willow and Giles was a disturbing shock, but Xander...he and Buffy had disagreed intensely before, of course (generally over vamps as I recall), but never when it came to the mission. Agreement or not, Xander followed Buffy into battle. It was never even a question. The moment he publicly shows a shadow of doubt in her...game, set and match. He's his same goofy self at times, but when he intends to be heard, everyone pays attention (examples: Dawn during the 'extraordinary' speech in "Potential," the entire room in "Dirty Girls" and "Empty Places"). Just enough Insecure Xander keeps him likable, but Confident Xander has pretty much taken control at this point. He's found his place, and finallly realized just how important he is (as does Buffy - FINALLY - in "End of Days"). Not sure if there was a point to all this...but it was fun writing, at least. I fully agree with you that ConfidentXander was in full mode in S7. He definitely has changed. Can't remember being suprised though. I totally agree with you on that Xander and Buffy have never disagreed (except with reensouling Angelus, which I consider as an mission) on the mission. Not even in Empty Spaces, he didn't like her attitude on nondemocracy. What is your view on that scene, on reasons behind his doubt? But, yes, people did listen to him. That much was clear. Also in Get It Done, he was the only one who didn't get critized by Buffy. He already did everything what he could. And like I explained too in the Replacement, InsecureXander is the one who rushed into battle. When Buffy wanted for Xander to take care of Dawn, ConfidentXander took the lead and her did what she wanted. (Just like ConfidentXander does in The Replacement.) It was all shouting, true. But, Xander said almost nothing in Touched. Also no other ideas. Which is unusual for Xander. I thought he was too quiet in those scenes. I did like the way he reacted towards Spike in the kitchen scene. Very simple and very honest. What is your opinion on that scene?
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Post by Rob on Aug 6, 2004 0:17:03 GMT -5
I fully agree with you that ConfidentXander was in full mode in S7. He definitely has changed. Can't remember being suprised though. I totally agree with you on that Xander and Buffy have never disagreed (except with reensouling Angelus, which I consider as an mission) on the mission. Not even in Empty Spaces, he didn't like her attitude on nondemocracy. What is your view on that scene, on reasons behind his doubt? No matter how it was written, I will always believe the core Scooby Gang had a legitimate point. Buffy's instincts were proven right about the vineyard...it made sense that they were hanging there for a reason. I think if she'd taken those closest to her aside and confided her feelings, things would have been different. Buffy did none of those things. 30 seconds after Xander got back from the hospital, she informed the room they were going back to the site where he'd been permanently disabled (not to mention a few Potentials bought the farm...though I honestly never learned to care all that much about them). They followed her the first time, with reservations. Hell, SPIKE wasn't sure it was the right idea to go charging in without learning more about Caleb...and he was absolutely right. For the mistake, the group paid a terrible price. Based on that, from their point of view I understand the general Scooby reaction perfectly. More about how that scene later...
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Post by Rob on Aug 6, 2004 0:33:59 GMT -5
It was all shouting, true. But, Xander said almost nothing in Touched. Also no other ideas. Which is unusual for Xander. I thought he was too quiet in those scenes. I did like the way he reacted towards Spike in the kitchen scene. Very simple and very honest. What is your opinion on that scene? The kitchen scene was hard for me, as a huge Xander-fan, to watch. I realize Spike wasn't calling HIM a traitor specifically...but it still stung, considering what Xander had just sacrificed. He didn't deserve that. I understand why he didn't respond; what happened went totally against Xander's grain. His instinct has always been to back Buffy up when it counted most. The wavering was something he almost instantly regretted...but the die had been cast when Dawn told Buffy to get out of her own house. It took something completely debilitating - and the appearance of little emotion from Buffy over that loss - to briefly weaken his faith in her. On the other hand, Spike isn't totally wrong. Giles, in particular, was a completely divisive force all through Season 7. Most fans dismiss it as being out-of -character for him, which I agree with. Still, in the context of the story, he DID betray Buffy. The most obvious example was aiding and abetting Wood with his vendetta toward Spike...but I think Giles betrayed Buffy just as much by unloading all the responsibility on her with precious little support. THAT's when the problems really started; she felt even more alone than ever. THAT was when the lines of communication started breaking down...and we all know what happens in the Jossverse when people don't communicate. So.. to sum up, my first emotional reaction was to jump through the screen and beat Spike to a bloody pulp for calling Xander a traitor. Once I had a chance to calm down and look at it from both sides...Spike made some valid points.
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Post by Rob on Aug 6, 2004 0:47:21 GMT -5
But, yes, people did listen to him. That much was clear. Also in Get It Done, he was the only one who didn't get critized by Buffy. He already did everything what he could. Now....Get It Done is interesting because Xander is the one person who has the courage to stand up to her venting...and remarkably, she DOES ease up a little when speaking to him. I can't imagine anyone else - other than Spike or Dawn, perhaps - who had that kind of influence with her at that time. Willow was a shadow of her former self, Giles was...whatever the Hell he was, Anya did little more than bitch and moan....and all the rest (from Kennedy on down) were irrelevant. Xander's part in Season 7 was so tiny...but the one important storyline was his emergence as the steady right hand man he'd always wanted to be for Buffy. Or, to steal an analogy from Christopher Golden, Riker to Buffy's Picard. Then his eye came out, and he lost the will to hold it together for a few days. That was all it took. Still, in the end, I believe (in Buffy's mind, at least) Xander has supplanted Willow's position as her most trusted friend. It wasn't just symbolic that she wanted Dawn with him. Xander would lay down his life for the women he loves...much like Spike, as a matter of fact. Those two have a lot in common. And I'm suddenly wondering if this discussion belongs in a Season 5 episode analysis. Spring, if you're reading this....sorry. I get caught up in the Xander-love, you know.
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Post by Linda on Aug 6, 2004 2:42:51 GMT -5
Thanks, K8. I noticed one more thing. I wrote: Notice how InsecureXander goes investigating on his own what this so called demon, CX, does and attacks him on his own, while CX goes immidiately to Buffy. Does that mean that CX doesn't investigate IX? Or in other words doesn't his confident self not face his own fears, (and goes to Buffy for help). Both Xander's go to Buffy for help and when insecureXander realizes that Buffy isn't there for him he really realizes he's a lozer. (And who wasn't there for him at the wedding . . .) Anyway, Xander totally sees Buffy as his hero. <snip> Hi all! Very cool Xander insights. I don't have anything to add except that the IX / CX dichotomy as Lissa described above reminds me of Xander's line from The Harvest after he joins Buffy in the sewers to help her look for Jesse: "Well, the part of my brain that would tell me to bring that stuff is still busy telling me not to come down here." So it may just be CX thinks things through and IX does not. If you were here for the AtS season 5 discussions, it could be an Astronaut vs. Caveman dichotomy (one acts on logic, the other on emotion -- but you need both to be whole.) I love your speculations. Keep posting, please. Linda, posting late and only in pieces...
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Post by Linda on Aug 6, 2004 2:48:42 GMT -5
<snip> Xander's part in Season 7 was so tiny...but the one important storyline was his emergence as the steady right hand man he'd always wanted to be for Buffy. Or, to steal an analogy from Christopher Golden, Riker to Buffy's Picard. <snip> Hi Rob! I think Xander's unfortunate lack of screentime in S-7 was due to his being the first of the Scoobies to have reached a steady maturity. He took care of himself and offered support to Buffy, Dawn and the others. Confident Xander in ascendance. I think the only time Insecure Xander (or maybe I am thinking of Emotional Xander) seemed to emerge in S-7 was in regards to Anya. The fight with Buffy over Anya in Selfless was significant, fundamental and forgiven. Because Anya proved Xander right in the end with her willingness to redeem her final act of vengeance. And may I just add that steadfast Xander was an especial joy to behold in Him. He was faced with his old high school traumas, Spike as a roomie, and all his women friends going off the deep end and he saved them all again. With humor and style. **sigh** They still should have found some other stories besides those and Potential to let Xander show his stuff. Linda, although thank goodness they didn't take him the Cordy/AtS route ...
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Post by Lissa on Aug 6, 2004 3:38:02 GMT -5
Hi Rob! I think Xander's unfortunate lack of screentime in S-7 was due to his being the first of the Scoobies to have reached a steady maturity. He took care of himself and offered support to Buffy, Dawn and the others. Confident Xander in ascendance. I think the only time Insecure Xander (or maybe I am thinking of Emotional Xander) seemed to emerge in S-7 was in regards to Anya. The fight with Buffy over Anya in Selfless was significant, fundamental and forgiven. Because Anya proved Xander right in the end with her willingness to redeem her final act of vengeance. And may I just add that steadfast Xander was an especial joy to behold in Him. He was faced with his old high school traumas, Spike as a roomie, and all his women friends going off the deep end and he saved them all again. With humor and style. **sigh** They still should have found some other stories besides those and Potential to let Xander show his stuff. Linda, although thank goodness they didn't take him the Cordy/AtS route ... Well, I thought he should have been the one to reach out for Faith, and not Robin Wood. Then Faith could have finally have a connection with the Scoobies. (And I don't mean this in possible ship terms, friendship is great.) It was his storyline and nobody else. I felt betrayed by the amount of screentime the nonregulars (Kennedy, Andrew and Wood) got. And I mean that. Willow and Anya didn't get that much screentime either, but at least Willow had a main role in Angel the series. And even in Potential Xander barely got any screentime. They could also have shown for example how Xander had tried to help Chloe with her confidence. Seeing her commit suicide would have had a big emotional impact on Xander, and put some strain on his view on Kennedy. Saving Kennedy in Dirty Girls would have had extra meaning. In that way The First could have hurt him. Although that was the way it hurt him anyway, seeing the people he cares about falling apart. Still there was more tha enough to do for him to.
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Post by Lissa on Aug 6, 2004 3:40:38 GMT -5
Linda, although thank goodness they didn't take him the Cordy/AtS route ... One episode with Xander in Angel would have been great. But, then rather in AS5. (Or in the cancelled S6). Then he could have made amends with Angel too. They should have do it early in the season, when the show needed some pushing. Can you imagine a ghost Spike and Xander? (Besides, Harmony and Xander were always fun, give some feeling of the old times.)
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Post by Lissa on Aug 6, 2004 3:46:37 GMT -5
Hi all! Very cool Xander insights. I don't have anything to add except that the IX / CX dichotomy as Lissa described above reminds me of Xander's line from The Harvest after he joins Buffy in the sewers to help her look for Jesse: "Well, the part of my brain that would tell me to bring that stuff is still busy telling me not to come down here." So it may just be CX thinks things through and IX does not. If you were here for the AtS season 5 discussions, it could be an Astronaut vs. Caveman dichotomy (one acts on logic, the other on emotion -- but you need both to be whole.) I love your speculations. Keep posting, please. Linda, posting late and only in pieces... Thanks, Linda. Well, where I am it's early I agree with you that CX thinks through. IX works on impulse. Much like Spike does. The analogy with the Astronaut vs. Caveman dichotomy is splendid. It surely makes Angel and Spike as a fitting team. Only I think Xander, Spike is better.
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Post by Lissa on Aug 6, 2004 4:06:27 GMT -5
The kitchen scene was hard for me, as a huge Xander-fan, to watch. I realize Spike wasn't calling HIM a traitor specifically...but it still stung, considering what Xander had just sacrificed. He didn't deserve that. I understand why he didn't respond; what happened went totally against Xander's grain. His instinct has always been to back Buffy up when it counted most. The wavering was something he almost instantly regretted...but the die had been cast when Dawn told Buffy to get out of her own house. It took something completely debilitating - and the appearance of little emotion from Buffy over that loss - to briefly weaken his faith in her. On the other hand, Spike isn't totally wrong. Giles, in particular, was a completely divisive force all through Season 7. Most fans dismiss it as being out-of -character for him, which I agree with. Still, in the context of the story, he DID betray Buffy. The most obvious example was aiding and abetting Wood with his vendetta toward Spike...but I think Giles betrayed Buffy just as much by unloading all the responsibility on her with precious little support. THAT's when the problems really started; she felt even more alone than ever. THAT was when the lines of communication started breaking down...and we all know what happens in the Jossverse when people don't communicate. So.. to sum up, my first emotional reaction was to jump through the screen and beat Spike to a bloody pulp for calling Xander a traitor. Once I had a chance to calm down and look at it from both sides...Spike made some valid points. I immediately thought Spike made some valid points, but he acted with disrespect. This is one scene where I totally dislike Spike. And, comparing with the Yoko Factor, he was also wrong and not consistent. But, Spike was in a high emotional state, Buffy more or less has 'saved' him. Besides, the theme with pushing Buffy away, except for Spike smells alot like The Freshman, only much harder. Like I said, I love the way Xander reacted to Spike, but I still wish he would have said more. I thought Xander became pretty much OOC after his eye was caughed out. He didn' talk with Faith. He didn't come up with any ideas himself. (I don't think I have remind you that Xander has come up with alot of ideas in the past, even more than Buffy). It's not like it's the first apocalypse, not the first death or the first injury he has faced. And overall in the last five eps, I have a hard time believing that he has said nothing about the way Faith, Wood, Giles and Kennedy had been acting. Faith, Wood and Kennedy had never faced an apocalypse before, they simply should have shut their mouths. And fighting demons versus facing an apocalypse are two totally different things, as we could see in S7
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Post by Lissa on Aug 6, 2004 4:19:28 GMT -5
Then his eye came out, and he lost the will to hold it together for a few days. That was all it took. Still, in the end, I believe (in Buffy's mind, at least) Xander has supplanted Willow's position as her most trusted friend. It wasn't just symbolic that she wanted Dawn with him. Xander would lay down his life for the women he loves...much like Spike, as a matter of fact. Those two have a lot in common. Agreed with what mentioned above. Still, I thought Xander was OOC. Considering the meds and the influence on the group as a whole I can imagine it perfectly. I considered his lost of an eye in itself not the reason for him that he has lost his eye, but that he knows what for impact it has on the women it has. (And Giles ) Precisely like you said, Xander would lay down his life to protect the women he loves. And Xander is Willow's most trusted friend, not very suprising. It's how Faith reacts on Angel. And after potential, you can say the same about Dawn. But, the one most hurt by the lost of his eye is Buffy.
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Post by Lissa on Aug 6, 2004 5:25:06 GMT -5
Xander's part in Season 7 was so tiny...but the one important storyline was his emergence as the steady right hand man he'd always wanted to be for Buffy. Or, to steal an analogy from Christopher Golden, Riker to Buffy's Picard. Spring, if you're reading this....sorry. I get caught up in the Xander-love, you know. I have read that line too. :eyepatch: Which novel was it again? The Gatekeeper Triology? Anyway, if Xander is the Riker to Buffy's Picard, that means he is her first officer. And the first officer takes care of the personel. Makes sure they feel at home, get the right jobs, etc. And looks out for the captain's safety. He does indeed do all those things and has most definitely the skill required. Would that mean that Giles is the Admiral of the Slayerfleet? And Willow chief engineer of the Enterprise?
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