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Post by Queen E on Jul 4, 2005 2:00:40 GMT -5
Let the fabulous discussion begin!
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Reunion
Jul 4, 2005 11:06:10 GMT -5
Post by Lola m on Jul 4, 2005 11:06:10 GMT -5
Here it is . . . number 10 in the 2005 Angel (and Buffy) Episode Festival! As a matter of fact, I was just thinking - why settle for a spree, when you could have - a - say - a massacre?
And yet, somehow, I just can't seem to care.
You're all fired.
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Reunion
Jul 4, 2005 11:08:44 GMT -5
Post by Lola m on Jul 4, 2005 11:08:44 GMT -5
So, what do others think about Gunn's suggestion that Cordy’s vision might be an attempt by TPTB to keep Angel from going after Darla and Dru?
TPTB interfering or just coincidence? If it was them trying to stop Angel, why?
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Reunion
Jul 4, 2005 13:04:14 GMT -5
Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 4, 2005 13:04:14 GMT -5
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Reunion
Jul 4, 2005 13:19:56 GMT -5
Post by Onjel on Jul 4, 2005 13:19:56 GMT -5
So, what do others think about Gunn's suggestion that Cordy’s vision might be an attempt by TPTB to keep Angel from going after Darla and Dru? TPTB interfering or just coincidence? If it was them trying to stop Angel, why? They wanted to get rid of all the head honchos at W&H?
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Reunion
Jul 4, 2005 22:27:34 GMT -5
Post by Queen E on Jul 4, 2005 22:27:34 GMT -5
So, what do others think about Gunn's suggestion that Cordy’s vision might be an attempt by TPTB to keep Angel from going after Darla and Dru? TPTB interfering or just coincidence? If it was them trying to stop Angel, why? I think they were trying to help him separate from Darla and focus on the mission. And is a very good example of TPTB knowing precisely what will happen and aiding their champions in making the right choices, not forcing the choices. They give them the chance to make the right decision, but know they have the free will to make both good and bad choices. As Lorne said in "Epiphany," the slaughter of the contracts department and Holland Manners was slated to happen with or without Angel: "That was slated to happen with or without you. The Powers were just trying to work it so it'd be without you, that's all." Because look what happened because of that: Angel feels guilty but justified. Conflicted, if you will. He falls deeper and deeper, finally sleeping with Darla, thereby impregnating her with Connor, who is kidnapped into Quor'toth, who comes back pissed and untrustful, sleeps with Cordy, who gives birth to Jasmine, which leads to Connor being suicidal and lost and Angel selling himself and his friends out to save him and ending up at Wolfram and Hart. Had he refocused on the mission and just let Darla and Dru go, none of those other things would have happened...
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Post by Lola m on Jul 5, 2005 7:11:17 GMT -5
Interesting! And they put their finger right on it, (as does Erin below) when they say the problem is Angel turning his back on the mission. By walking away from the visions, the helpless. So TPTB were trying to remind him of that - trying to pull him back? But not by force - it's gotta be his decision. But I also liked this essay for taking on the issue of how much the Fang Gang, the AI team, don't really help matters either. It's that whole "let's not listen to each other, let's just pull apart and sulk separately" thing that'll get them in trouble in season 3 as well.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 5, 2005 7:12:02 GMT -5
So, what do others think about Gunn's suggestion that Cordy’s vision might be an attempt by TPTB to keep Angel from going after Darla and Dru? TPTB interfering or just coincidence? If it was them trying to stop Angel, why? I think they were trying to help him separate from Darla and focus on the mission. And is a very good example of TPTB knowing precisely what will happen and aiding their champions in making the right choices, not forcing the choices. They give them the chance to make the right decision, but know they have the free will to make both good and bad choices. As Lorne said in "Epiphany," the slaughter of the contracts department and Holland Manners was slated to happen with or without Angel: "That was slated to happen with or without you. The Powers were just trying to work it so it'd be without you, that's all." Because look what happened because of that: Angel feels guilty but justified. Conflicted, if you will. He falls deeper and deeper, finally sleeping with Darla, thereby impregnating her with Connor, who is kidnapped into Quor'toth, who comes back pissed and untrustful, sleeps with Cordy, who gives birth to Jasmine, which leads to Connor being suicidal and lost and Angel selling himself and his friends out to save him and ending up at Wolfram and Hart. Had he refocused on the mission and just let Darla and Dru go, none of those other things would have happened... Ooooh! *nod nod nod* Good points!
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Post by Lola m on Jul 5, 2005 7:21:48 GMT -5
Re-watching this ep really made me remember what it was like to watch it when it first aired.
Those moments when Angel says "And yet, somehow, I just can't seem to care" and turns and leaves them all to be eaten . . . wow!
I remember just sitting there stunned. And then you come back to the scene with the AI gang and he fires them and . . .
Truly a stunning episode, for a lot of reasons!
The very very very intersting exhange between Darla and Lindsey.
____________________________
There are two other things that always strike me when I watch this one. First is the very very very intersting exhange between Darla and Lindsey.
Darla: Hmm. Gung-ho, are they? Because all I'm sensing right now is big, stinky fear. But not from you. Do you know what I'm getting from you, Lindsey? Nothing. Why aren't you afraid? Lindsey: I don't know. Darla: You could die here. Chances are you will. Lindsey: I know. Darla: And you don't care. Lindsey: I care. - I guess I just don't mind.
I mean, he really isn't scared - Darla wouldn't make a mistake about that. Is it just that he loves her, or is it something else? Is that "I just don't mind" attitude just something that Lindsey has in him? Does this play out in other aspects of his arc?
Also, I'm really interested in how Darla acts when she's vamped again. We're talking about the differences in the newly vamped when we look at LMPTM, but there's a rising here too. She's disoriented at first, and very very angry. And she asks Dru "why?" Is she remembering when she was recently human and souled and angry that she was vamped? Is she asking "why" about the whole thing? She's angry with Holland - but for all of it or just part of it? Does she not want to be a vamp at first?
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Post by Pixi on Jul 5, 2005 8:52:14 GMT -5
I love this episode. I agree - the absolute shock of the ending was terrific. Great writing, great scenes.
I must admit, I wasn't initially gung ho Angel. I watched it from the beginning but if I missed an episode it didn't freak me out like missing a Buffy did. But it was this episode that hooked me. Made it must see TV so to speak.
I loved the fact that Joss was willing to go here and take his show in such an expected direction. It gave me so much more insight and compassion than I had ever had for Angel (admittedly not a big fan of him on Buffy).
So - I have nothing deep to say here but just general applause for this show.
And I'm really glad Lilah survived.
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Reunion
Jul 5, 2005 10:01:45 GMT -5
Post by Jan on Jul 5, 2005 10:01:45 GMT -5
I loved this. Logic about things like this can always be made pretty much circular, can't it.
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Reunion
Jul 5, 2005 11:51:17 GMT -5
Post by Lola m on Jul 5, 2005 11:51:17 GMT -5
I love this episode. I agree - the absolute shock of the ending was terrific. Great writing, great scenes. I must admit, I wasn't initially gung ho Angel. I watched it from the beginning but if I missed an episode it didn't freak me out like missing a Buffy did. But it was this episode that hooked me. Made it must see TV so to speak. I loved the fact that Joss was willing to go here and take his show in such an expected direction. It gave me so much more insight and compassion than I had ever had for Angel (admittedly not a big fan of him on Buffy). So - I have nothing deep to say here but just general applause for this show. And I'm really glad Lilah survived. I love Lilah. And I love Lilah and Lindsey snarking at each other. So I was really happy that they survived and were not munched. ;D Yeah, I think I got a whole new appreciation for the character of Angel on AtS - he came into his own there. And gained more apprecation for Joss. Because what a leap to make with a character! To go so dark with your lead! And not even as a finale, but smack dab in the middle of the season!
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Reunion
Jul 5, 2005 20:15:20 GMT -5
Post by Lola m on Jul 5, 2005 20:15:20 GMT -5
For no other reason other than to admire the pretty . . .
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Post by Pixi on Jul 6, 2005 6:32:15 GMT -5
I have always regretted that Holland Masters bit the dust here. Though he did make a couple of encore visits (one via video) - I felt all the subsequent head honchos at W&H never quite equaled his presence.
Evil - with a good dollop of sympathetic likening thrown in.
It's just too bad they couldn't bring the Mayor over to run the place. He is still my favorite villain ever.
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Reunion
Jul 6, 2005 23:28:01 GMT -5
Post by Rachael on Jul 6, 2005 23:28:01 GMT -5
So, what do others think about Gunn's suggestion that Cordy’s vision might be an attempt by TPTB to keep Angel from going after Darla and Dru? TPTB interfering or just coincidence? If it was them trying to stop Angel, why? I tend to lean towards coincidence, myself - mostly because I couldn't see any advantage to stopping Angel. Except one - if TPTB knew that Angel would descend the rest of the way into darkness as a result of that interaction with Dru and Darla, they might have tried to prevent it. But...at the cost of all those lives, which there was still an off chance he'd prevent.
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