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Post by Karen on Jul 31, 2005 19:10:55 GMT -5
Season: Episode 22 of Season 5
Original Air Date: 05/18/2004
Written by: Jeffrey Bell & Joss Whedon
Directed by: Jeffrey Bell
Angel & co go after the Black Thorn.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 31, 2005 19:18:41 GMT -5
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Post by Lola m on Aug 1, 2005 7:48:34 GMT -5
A few tidbits from Jeff Bell's commentary on the ep.
* The plot of the ep itself is actually very simple, when you look at it. We need to kill these guys, OK, now we go do it. But it's deliberately simple because there is a lot of subtle backstory and other themes and threadst to weave through and deal with.
* The main note they gave to Adam B on playing Hamilton was that he should be a little bit Cary Grant. JB said after playing such rough tough guys before, it was really fun for AB to get to play a character that basically was "someone who looks really good in a suit".
* Early on, when deciding on the "big bad" for the season, Joss and he had made it clear that they were not going to personify the Senior Partners. Because what your imagination comes up with is way worse than anything they could have created. (Hmmmmm. Sounds like the Reavers in Firefly.)
* The key to Illyria is that she's not tracking things in the same linear way as us. Her reactions and movements are not "fitting" the actual events as we see them, a lot of the time. (I thought this was a very interesting note, made me look more closely at the way Illyria moves and reacts. I also thought it was a very appropriate concept for a God King who has had power over time.)
* Joss wanted Spike to be reading the poem with "all the drunken intensity of the great British actors, like Richard Burton". Wanted Spike and us to hear the poem and have it be appreciated by the audience.
* I got a giggle over JB saying that his one regret was that he thinks the cloak he had Spike wearing to save the baby doesn't make Spike look "cool" enough - that it gave him "a big puffy head". And I've always thought the cloak gave him some of the prettiest and sexiest shots of the season, because of the shadow all around which really throws his face into relief and shows off the cheekbones and all.
* Why Joss says that the ending is not a cliffhanger. Joss was very clear - it doesn't matter if they win or lose, or live or die. If they won this battle, another would come along. These guys will always be fighting the good fight.
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Post by Pixi on Aug 1, 2005 11:50:41 GMT -5
A few tidbits from Jeff Bell's commentary on the ep. * The main note they gave to Adam B on playing Hamilton was that he should be a little bit Cary Grant. JB said after playing such rough tough guys before, it was really fun for AB to get to play a character that basically was "someone who looks really good in a suit". * Early on, when deciding on the "big bad" for the season, Joss and he had made it clear that they were not going to personify the Senior Partners. Because what your imagination comes up with is way worse than anything they could have created. (Hmmmmm. Sounds like the Reavers in Firefly.) * The key to Illyria is that she's not tracking things in the same linear way as us. Her reactions and movements are not "fitting" the actual events as we see them, a lot of the time. (I thought this was a very interesting note, made me look more closely at the way Illyria moves and reacts. I also thought it was a very appropriate concept for a God King who has had power over time.) * Joss wanted Spike to be reading the poem with "all the drunken intensity of the great British actors, like Richard Burton". Wanted Spike and us to hear the poem and have it be appreciated by the audience. * Why Joss says that the ending is not a cliffhanger. Joss was very clear - it doesn't matter if they win or lose, or live or die. If they won this battle, another would come along. These guys will always be fighting the good fight. That must have been fun for Adam Baldwin. You know - I wasn't a fan of him in Angel. It is only upon having watched Firefly that I finally get the appeal. Now, looking back, I think I would have appreciated his performance on an entirely different level in Angel if I had seen Firefly first. I must say I agree with the concept of never seeing the Senior Partners. I do think mystery makes things much more scary and having Holland Manners appear on their behalf back in season 2 was terrific. Though the Black Thorn circle - just didn't impress me. Maybe it was because devil guy was played for laughs earlier in the season with the whole racquetball thing or the fact that I hated that wheezy guy that killed Wesley, or the bitch senator just seemed tired and cliche - I just didn't find the Circle all that scary or worthy of throwing lifes away. The poetry reading was one of the few highlights for me. I loved that. What a moment for Spike - I was cheering along with the crowd. I haven't rewatched Not Fade Away - though I have it on tape because I just didn't like the ending. I got the concept Joss was going for and yet . . . . . . . I wanted more. I wanted Buffy and Giles and a grand, battered glorious victory. I just hated with a fiery passion that they killed Wesley. I don't know if I'm ever going to want to rewatch it for those reasons. I get all the reasons things were done as they were and all everyone got out of this - I've seen this episode debated upside down, backwards, sideways and internally so I get why some like it. Just doesn't work for me. |
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Post by Queen E on Aug 1, 2005 23:50:22 GMT -5
A few tidbits from Jeff Bell's commentary on the ep. * The main note they gave to Adam B on playing Hamilton was that he should be a little bit Cary Grant. JB said after playing such rough tough guys before, it was really fun for AB to get to play a character that basically was "someone who looks really good in a suit". * Early on, when deciding on the "big bad" for the season, Joss and he had made it clear that they were not going to personify the Senior Partners. Because what your imagination comes up with is way worse than anything they could have created. (Hmmmmm. Sounds like the Reavers in Firefly.) * The key to Illyria is that she's not tracking things in the same linear way as us. Her reactions and movements are not "fitting" the actual events as we see them, a lot of the time. (I thought this was a very interesting note, made me look more closely at the way Illyria moves and reacts. I also thought it was a very appropriate concept for a God King who has had power over time.) * Joss wanted Spike to be reading the poem with "all the drunken intensity of the great British actors, like Richard Burton". Wanted Spike and us to hear the poem and have it be appreciated by the audience. * Why Joss says that the ending is not a cliffhanger. Joss was very clear - it doesn't matter if they win or lose, or live or die. If they won this battle, another would come along. These guys will always be fighting the good fight. That must have been fun for Adam Baldwin. You know - I wasn't a fan of him in Angel. It is only upon having watched Firefly that I finally get the appeal. Now, looking back, I think I would have appreciated his performance on an entirely different level in Angel if I had seen Firefly first. I must say I agree with the concept of never seeing the Senior Partners. I do think mystery makes things much more scary and having Holland Manners appear on their behalf back in season 2 was terrific. Though the Black Thorn circle - just didn't impress me. Maybe it was because devil guy was played for laughs earlier in the season with the whole racquetball thing or the fact that I hated that wheezy guy that killed Wesley, or the bitch senator just seemed tired and cliche - I just didn't find the Circle all that scary or worthy of throwing lifes away. The poetry reading was one of the few highlights for me. I loved that. What a moment for Spike - I was cheering along with the crowd. I haven't rewatched Not Fade Away - though I have it on tape because I just didn't like the ending. I got the concept Joss was going for and yet . . . . . . . I wanted more. I wanted Buffy and Giles and a grand, battered glorious victory. I just hated with a fiery passion that they killed Wesley. I don't know if I'm ever going to want to rewatch it for those reasons. I get all the reasons things were done as they were and all everyone got out of this - I've seen this episode debated upside down, backwards, sideways and internally so I get why some like it. Just doesn't work for me. And I would be one of those people: I loved "Not Fade Away," although tonight is the first time I've watched it since it aired. And Erinland was created on the very concept that the story is not yet over... What had the most appeal for me was the symmetry: the entire thing started with Angel fighting in an alley, and ended the same way. We see Spike finally integrate William into his personality, see Gunn realizing that "if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do." We see Illyria understanding love and pain and humanity. We see Lorne finally stop being manipulated into reading everyone else's destiny and creating his own. And we see that, for Angel, the Shanshu is not about Angel himself attaining humanity, but the humanity of his son, his most important work in his long existence is not Buffy, is not fists and fangs, but the legacy of good that now exists in Connor. Connor is his real immortality. Most importantly, we see that the fight against evil never really ends, but that does not mean we should give up the fight. To me, "Not Fade Away" has all kinds of tragic beauty. I can't wait to see what happens next. Or, as Tennyson said in "Ulysses": Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho' We are not now that strength which in the old days Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are; One equal-temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. |
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Post by Pixi on Aug 2, 2005 6:53:46 GMT -5
That must have been fun for Adam Baldwin. You know - I wasn't a fan of him in Angel. It is only upon having watched Firefly that I finally get the appeal. Now, looking back, I think I would have appreciated his performance on an entirely different level in Angel if I had seen Firefly first. I must say I agree with the concept of never seeing the Senior Partners. I do think mystery makes things much more scary and having Holland Manners appear on their behalf back in season 2 was terrific. Though the Black Thorn circle - just didn't impress me. Maybe it was because devil guy was played for laughs earlier in the season with the whole racquetball thing or the fact that I hated that wheezy guy that killed Wesley, or the bitch senator just seemed tired and cliche - I just didn't find the Circle all that scary or worthy of throwing lifes away. The poetry reading was one of the few highlights for me. I loved that. What a moment for Spike - I was cheering along with the crowd. I haven't rewatched Not Fade Away - though I have it on tape because I just didn't like the ending. I got the concept Joss was going for and yet . . . . . . . I wanted more. I wanted Buffy and Giles and a grand, battered glorious victory. I just hated with a fiery passion that they killed Wesley. I don't know if I'm ever going to want to rewatch it for those reasons. I get all the reasons things were done as they were and all everyone got out of this - I've seen this episode debated upside down, backwards, sideways and internally so I get why some like it. Just doesn't work for me. And I would be one of those people: I loved "Not Fade Away," although tonight is the first time I've watched it since it aired. And Erinland was created on the very concept that the story is not yet over... What had the most appeal for me was the symmetry: the entire thing started with Angel fighting in an alley, and ended the same way. We see Spike finally integrate William into his personality, see Gunn realizing that "if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do." We see Illyria understanding love and pain and humanity. We see Lorne finally stop being manipulated into reading everyone else's destiny and creating his own. And we see that, for Angel, the Shanshu is not about Angel himself attaining humanity, but the humanity of his son, his most important work in his long existence is not Buffy, is not fists and fangs, but the legacy of good that now exists in Connor. Connor is his real immortality. Most importantly, we see that the fight against evil never really ends, but that does not mean we should give up the fight. To me, "Not Fade Away" has all kinds of tragic beauty. I can't wait to see what happens next. Or, as Tennyson said in "Ulysses": Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho' We are not now that strength which in the old days Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are; One equal-temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. Don't get me wrong Erin - I get all those points - as I've said I've seen this episode debated every which way but loose and I agree with all your concepts. I agree with all the things that happen. It's just as a fan - it didn't satisfy me, it didn't bring me any kind of happy or unhappy closure. I get the theme, I get what Joss was aiming for and I think he succeeded. It's just on a personal level - I just didn't enjoy the show. I'm not arguing with any of the points you make whatsoever because I agree with them. |
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Post by Queen E on Aug 2, 2005 9:41:40 GMT -5
And I would be one of those people: I loved "Not Fade Away," although tonight is the first time I've watched it since it aired. And Erinland was created on the very concept that the story is not yet over... What had the most appeal for me was the symmetry: the entire thing started with Angel fighting in an alley, and ended the same way. We see Spike finally integrate William into his personality, see Gunn realizing that "if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do." We see Illyria understanding love and pain and humanity. We see Lorne finally stop being manipulated into reading everyone else's destiny and creating his own. And we see that, for Angel, the Shanshu is not about Angel himself attaining humanity, but the humanity of his son, his most important work in his long existence is not Buffy, is not fists and fangs, but the legacy of good that now exists in Connor. Connor is his real immortality. Most importantly, we see that the fight against evil never really ends, but that does not mean we should give up the fight. To me, "Not Fade Away" has all kinds of tragic beauty. I can't wait to see what happens next. Or, as Tennyson said in "Ulysses": Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho' We are not now that strength which in the old days Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are; One equal-temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. Don't get me wrong Erin - I get all those points - as I've said I've seen this episode debated every which way but loose and I agree with all your concepts. I agree with all the things that happen. It's just as a fan - it didn't satisfy me, it didn't bring me any kind of happy or unhappy closure. I get the theme, I get what Joss was aiming for and I think he succeeded. It's just on a personal level - I just didn't enjoy the show. I'm not arguing with any of the points you make whatsoever because I agree with them. No, it's cool either way...and many many Angel fans/friends were furious at the way it ended. And you can disagree with me anytime...I don't mind.  And in no way meant that as a "Pixi, you're wrong, for the above reasons." More like, "yeah, I get why it would be unsatisfying, but here's why it worked for me." So we're in agreement either way. And good morning! |
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Post by spring on the fly on Aug 2, 2005 11:59:10 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong Erin - I get all those points - as I've said I've seen this episode debated every which way but loose and I agree with all your concepts. I agree with all the things that happen. It's just as a fan - it didn't satisfy me, it didn't bring me any kind of happy or unhappy closure. I get the theme, I get what Joss was aiming for and I think he succeeded. It's just on a personal level - I just didn't enjoy the show. I'm not arguing with any of the points you make whatsoever because I agree with them. No, it's cool either way...and many many Angel fans/friends were furious at the way it ended. And you can disagree with me anytime...I don't mind. And in no way meant that as a "Pixi, you're wrong, for the above reasons." More like, "yeah, I get why it would be unsatisfying, but here's why it worked for me." So we're in agreement either way. And good morning! That's the thing about Not Fade Away: It wasn't meant to bring closure, it wasn't meant to be a satisfying ending to the series, it wasn't supposed to be the ending. So - I think it was a satisfying ending to Season 5. It had the characters positioned as they needed to be, but it wasn't over yet. It wasn't meant to be over, and that showed. |
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Post by Pixi on Aug 2, 2005 12:40:29 GMT -5
No, it's cool either way...and many many Angel fans/friends were furious at the way it ended. And you can disagree with me anytime...I don't mind. And in no way meant that as a "Pixi, you're wrong, for the above reasons." More like, "yeah, I get why it would be unsatisfying, but here's why it worked for me." So we're in agreement either way. And good morning! That's the thing about Not Fade Away: It wasn't meant to bring closure, it wasn't meant to be a satisfying ending to the series, it wasn't supposed to be the ending. So - I think it was a satisfying ending to Season 5. It had the characters positioned as they needed to be, but it wasn't over yet. It wasn't meant to be over, and that showed. I agree. But - Joss knew at this point that Angel was cancelled. Sure - there were a lot of vague rumors about tv movies but as much as he wanted to leave the series open-ended, we the fans (or we many of the fans who feel like I did - not the ones who don't ;D ) needed an emotional closure. I get all the epiphanies that Erin mentioned but it just wasn't enough. See - now if Buffy had ended with The Gift - as upset as I would be, I still got immense emotional closure from that episode. I cry every single time but it's a good cry. It worked. Not Fade Away - does not give me that closure that I feel as a long-time fan of the show, it needed. I wish Joss would have found a way to keep his theme, his ongoing story and yet give me, as a fan that was hurting, a sense of closure. I never feel at the end of The Gift that the fight isn't ongoing. I know that the S'cubies and Dawn and Giles and Spike will continue fighting to save the world. Of course - The Gift wasn't the end of Buffy but to me, it is the best example in the Jossverse of an ending that provides emotional closure and yet continues the story. But, as I said - just my opinion. |
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Post by Queen E on Aug 2, 2005 16:48:03 GMT -5
That's the thing about Not Fade Away: It wasn't meant to bring closure, it wasn't meant to be a satisfying ending to the series, it wasn't supposed to be the ending. So - I think it was a satisfying ending to Season 5. It had the characters positioned as they needed to be, but it wasn't over yet. It wasn't meant to be over, and that showed. I agree. But - Joss knew at this point that Angel was cancelled. Sure - there were a lot of vague rumors about tv movies but as much as he wanted to leave the series open-ended, we the fans (or we many of the fans who feel like I did - not the ones who don't ;D ) needed an emotional closure. I get all the epiphanies that Erin mentioned but it just wasn't enough. See - now if Buffy had ended with The Gift - as upset as I would be, I still got immense emotional closure from that episode. I cry every single time but it's a good cry. It worked. Not Fade Away - does not give me that closure that I feel as a long-time fan of the show, it needed. I wish Joss would have found a way to keep his theme, his ongoing story and yet give me, as a fan that was hurting, a sense of closure. I never feel at the end of The Gift that the fight isn't ongoing. I know that the S'cubies and Dawn and Giles and Spike will continue fighting to save the world. Of course - The Gift wasn't the end of Buffy but to me, it is the best example in the Jossverse of an ending that provides emotional closure and yet continues the story. But, as I said - just my opinion. He knew mid-February, but I'm not sure how long that is before shooting is done for the season. |
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Post by Queen E on Aug 2, 2005 23:17:09 GMT -5
A few tidbits from Jeff Bell's commentary on the ep. * The plot of the ep itself is actually very simple, when you look at it. We need to kill these guys, OK, now we go do it. But it's deliberately simple because there is a lot of subtle backstory and other themes and threadst to weave through and deal with. * The main note they gave to Adam B on playing Hamilton was that he should be a little bit Cary Grant. JB said after playing such rough tough guys before, it was really fun for AB to get to play a character that basically was "someone who looks really good in a suit". * Early on, when deciding on the "big bad" for the season, Joss and he had made it clear that they were not going to personify the Senior Partners. Because what your imagination comes up with is way worse than anything they could have created. (Hmmmmm. Sounds like the Reavers in Firefly.) * The key to Illyria is that she's not tracking things in the same linear way as us. Her reactions and movements are not "fitting" the actual events as we see them, a lot of the time. (I thought this was a very interesting note, made me look more closely at the way Illyria moves and reacts. I also thought it was a very appropriate concept for a God King who has had power over time.) * Joss wanted Spike to be reading the poem with "all the drunken intensity of the great British actors, like Richard Burton". Wanted Spike and us to hear the poem and have it be appreciated by the audience. * I got a giggle over JB saying that his one regret was that he thinks the cloak he had Spike wearing to save the baby doesn't make Spike look "cool" enough - that it gave him "a big puffy head". And I've always thought the cloak gave him some of the prettiest and sexiest shots of the season, because of the shadow all around which really throws his face into relief and shows off the cheekbones and all. * Why Joss says that the ending is not a cliffhanger. Joss was very clear - it doesn't matter if they win or lose, or live or die. If they won this battle, another would come along. These guys will always be fighting the good fight. One thing Jeff Bell in the commentary that I really want to know is: Who are the two producers Fox won't let them name, and what the hell did those two people do? |
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Buffy and Angel Festival!
;D [/size]
