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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Aug 31, 2003 15:04:22 GMT -5
OK, I don't often get involved in these discussions, because I don't really have that strong an opinion one way or the other, but I enjoy reading them and this has made me want to comment... so here goes. The one thing that I think is being overlooked in regards to how everyone (Buffy, the Scooby gang, Giles) treats Spike and Angel differently is the circumstances on how they met. Everyone met and got to know and love Angel as a good guy, who did heroic things to help them even though he was a vampire. They met and got to know Spike as a very evil Vampire who had killed two Slayers and tried time and time again to wreak much havoc. Then, even after Spike was chipped, he still tried to return to his old ways (tried twice to have the chip removed) and still participated in plans to wreak havoc. So, I can see how they would want to save their friend Angel (and Willow for that matter) despite his wrong actions - because you try to save your friends when they're in trouble - that's just what people do. And I can see how they would view any of Spike's wong actions as a sign of his former self showing through. It is much easier to form an opinion than it is to change an opinion. I would like to state that all that is just my opinion on how the characters feel, and not on wether Joss and the writers were right or wrong to handle it that way. I doubt anyone will actually read this, but if you do - let me know how I did. I think you did really well. Very good points.
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Post by LadyDi on Sept 1, 2003 2:24:06 GMT -5
ME/JW keep telling us that they respect what Spike did. Doesn't that include respecting the why as well? It's terrible to think that after everything he's been thru, he'll get his heart broken yet again. Love in the Whedon-verse is definitely a four letter word, but is one happy couple really too much to ask? I do sometimes wish that Spike could find a relationship not tainted by past abuses, but JW seems to be telling us that ain't gonna happen. Honestly, the way Buffy treated Spike, it's a wonder he didn't snap a whole lot sooner. As for the differences in how Angel was treated compaired to Spike, you can't have it both ways. If Angel isn't responsible for Angelus' evil, then soulful Spike isn't responsible for what he did before his trip to Africa. Yes, it's hard to change your opinion of someone who was your enemy. Yeah, Buffy only has Spike's word for it that he got his soul. Yeah, the Scoobies (except for Anya) only have Buffy's word for it. Pick your favorite reason...but one expects that a more evolved being would be worthy of some respect. I was reading a recent BtVS-related article in some mag (don't remember which one) and from their coverage alone, you could be excused for thinking that Chosen ended after the first five minutes. There was no mention/photo of the fiery handclasp btwn Spike and Buffy, no "I love you," no sacrifice. Now, this isn't ME/JW's fault (not directly, at least), but I think it may have been influenced by how they've presented these characters and the reactions of the other characters to them. I'm gonna sound like a five year old for saying this, but it isn't fair.
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Post by missbuffy on Sept 5, 2003 14:09:38 GMT -5
I think you did really well. Very good points. Thank-you Patti. Your input is appreciated.
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Post by missbuffy on Sept 5, 2003 14:18:54 GMT -5
*snip*As for the differences in how Angel was treated compaired to Spike, you can't have it both ways. If Angel isn't responsible for Angelus' evil, then soulful Spike isn't responsible for what he did before his trip to Africa. Yes, it's hard to change your opinion of someone who was your enemy. Yeah, Buffy only has Spike's word for it that he got his soul. Yeah, the Scoobies (except for Anya) only have Buffy's word for it. Pick your favorite reason...but one expects that a more evolved being would be worthy of some respect. I'm gonna sound like a five year old for saying this, but it isn't fair. I don't think it is having it both ways. Angel was a good guy who went bad for a few months, Spike was a bad guy who has been good for a year. Angel was not forgiven right away, excpet for maybe by Buffy. Spike has a lot more to make up for so it is only logical that it will take a lot longer for him to win trust, although he got Buffy's long before anyone else's. I believe that had the show continued, Spike's realtionship with everyone would have become more like Angel's. And while it may be the S'Cubies opinion that Spike was more evolved than Angel (I'm not arguing that point at all) it never appeared to be the Scooby's opinion, and really they are the people in question, not us. You do not sound like a 5 yr. old for saying that - it's true - life is not fair. And I think that is one of Joss's big messages... after girl power of course.
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Post by missbuffy on Sept 8, 2003 12:15:06 GMT -5
From "writergroupie" posted on Ex Isle on July 20, 2003 who attended a Comic Convention I found another article from a different author from the same comic con. It is MUCH too long to post, but here is the link. www.buffy.nu/article.php3?id_article=1472It is mostly Joss's words, until part 2 where there is Q's with some of the B-verse writers. It covers the 2 points Sandy highlighted, but much more. I found it really interesting.
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Post by Karen on Sept 8, 2003 14:53:53 GMT -5
I found another article from a different author from the same comic con. It is MUCH too long to post, but here is the link. www.buffy.nu/article.php3?id_article=1472It is mostly Joss's words, until part 2 where there is Q's with some of the B-verse writers. It covers the 2 points Sandy highlighted, but much more. I found it really interesting. Thanks, missbuffy. That was VERY interesting. Especially how he is going to transition some of Buffy's messages into AtS. I liked Joss's quote "We need not have heroes so much as to all see ourselves as heroes." when he was explaining S7 of Buffy. I think that you could probably substitute "God" for "heroes" and that would pretty much sum up Joss's basic philosophy. When I tried to copy and paste from the site and right-clicked with my mouse it got the message "The Hardest Thing in this World is to Live in It" . TOO FUNNY! (Of course I *couldn't* copy flippersmack!)
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Post by RAKSHA on Sept 10, 2003 1:16:38 GMT -5
I don't think it is having it both ways. Angel was a good guy who went bad for a few months, Spike was a bad guy who has been good for a year. Angel was not forgiven right away, excpet for maybe by Buffy. Spike has a lot more to make up for so it is only logical that it will take a lot longer for him to win trust, although he got Buffy's long before anyone else's. I believe that had the show continued, Spike's realtionship with everyone would have become more like Angel's. And while it may be the S'Cubies opinion that Spike was more evolved than Angel (I'm not arguing that point at all) it never appeared to be the Scooby's opinion, and really they are the people in question, not us. You do not sound like a 5 yr. old for saying that - it's true - life is not fair. And I think that is one of Joss's big messages... after girl power of course. I don't quite buy the comparison of the Spike/ Buffy AR debacle to the infamous Luke & Laura rape scene on GENERAL HOSPITAL. Spike did NOT rape Buffy; and not just because she kicked him away from her, but because he pulled back in horror and fled rather than continue to force himself on him. He realized what he was doing and was ashamed of it.
If the ME scripters had Buffy asking her supposed 'rapist' to 'hold me' in TOUCHED, isn't that proof that both the scripters and Buffy felt he could be trusted completely? She slept peacefully in his arms; and then did the same thing in CHOSEN. I don't see the difference between a woman's trusting a man to hold her in his arms for hours and a woman's trusting a man to have sex with her in terms of that man's prior attempted but aborted rape. And if I were a writer trying to convey a moral lesson that a character who tried to rape the woman he loved was forever untrustworthy with her or not ever worthy of her love, I wouldn't have the two characters snuggling up together for mutual comfort in a time of terrible danger.
As others have mentioned, Spike did a lot less personal damage to Buffy and the Scoobies in two and a half years of being their soulless adversary than Angel did in a few months. Spike betrayed them, not very effectively, to Adam, by trying to undermine the Scoobies' friendship; and tried to kill the Slayer, who he didn't know personally at that time beyond a moment's acquaintance. Angel stalked Buffy and her mother, hinted at his desire to kill Buffy's mother, killed Buffy's teacher and then personally tortured Buffy's surrogate father. Not to mention Angel's trying to destroy the world.
I believe that Spike had proved he was worthy of Buffy's forgiveness and her love; and that she gave him both in the latter half of Season 7. While it might have taken awhile for them to begin a more wholesome sexual relationship than that which had almost destroyed them in Season 6, I believe they would have done it eventually if Spike had survived.
Another poster said that Buffy's not loving Spike was now canon. I disagree - it is what Spike believes, or said to motivate Buffy to leave him and live. If Buffy had said it, than it would be canon.
JW has been quoted as saying: "We need not have heroes so much as to all see ourselves as heroes." With respect to Buffy's creator, I think we will alwaysneed heroes! We didn't start watching BUFFY just to see Spike's cheekbones; we were intrigued and then amazed at the heroic exploits and courage of a small girl who fought vampires and demons every night. Wanting to have heroes and enjoying them when, in fictional or true form, they appear, doesn't prevent us from seeing ourselves as heroes, it encourages us to bring out the hero in ourselves.
Sorry for laying all these references to other post on you; I don't feel like doing several different posts here tonight...
Gail
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 10, 2003 10:59:10 GMT -5
I don't think it is having it both ways. Angel was a good guy who went bad for a few months, Spike was a bad guy who has been good for a year. Angel was not forgiven right away, excpet for maybe by Buffy. Spike has a lot more to make up for so it is only logical that it will take a lot longer for him to win trust, although he got Buffy's long before anyone else's. I believe that had the show continued, Spike's realtionship with everyone would have become more like Angel's. And while it may be the S'Cubies opinion that Spike was more evolved than Angel (I'm not arguing that point at all) it never appeared to be the Scooby's opinion, and really they are the people in question, not us. You do not sound like a 5 yr. old for saying that - it's true - life is not fair. And I think that is one of Joss's big messages... after girl power of course. Spike has a lot more to make up for than Angel? In what way? They both have thousands of murders and the like to make up for. And if we are talking about what was done just to Buffy and The Scoobies, Angel has Jenny's death to make up for - he killed a woman Giles was in love with. He also tortured Giles "for hours, and for pleasure", and tormented Buffy all those months . . . how is that less than what Spike has to make up for? No, no - I don't buy that. Buffy and The Scoobies didn't treat souled Angel differently than souled Spike because souled Angel somehow deserved better treatment. They treat souled Spike differently because they are different people in different circumstances - older, not so open-hearted, more cautious, etc - especially Buffy.
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 10, 2003 11:05:24 GMT -5
I don't quite buy the comparison of the Spike/ Buffy AR debacle to the infamous Luke & Laura rape scene on GENERAL HOSPITAL. Spike did NOT rape Buffy; and not just because she kicked him away from her, but because he pulled back in horror and fled rather than continue to force himself on him. He realized what he was doing and was ashamed of it.
If the ME scripters had Buffy asking her supposed 'rapist' to 'hold me' in TOUCHED, isn't that proof that both the scripters and Buffy felt he could be trusted completely? She slept peacefully in his arms; and then did the same thing in CHOSEN. I don't see the difference between a woman's trusting a man to hold her in his arms for hours and a woman's trusting a man to have sex with her in terms of that man's prior attempted but aborted rape. And if I were a writer trying to convey a moral lesson that a character who tried to rape the woman he loved was forever untrustworthy with her or not ever worthy of her love, I wouldn't have the two characters snuggling up together for mutual comfort in a time of terrible danger.
As others have mentioned, Spike did a lot less personal damage to Buffy and the Scoobies in two and a half years of being their soulless adversary than Angel did in a few months. Spike betrayed them, not very effectively, to Adam, by trying to undermine the Scoobies' friendship; and tried to kill the Slayer, who he didn't know personally at that time beyond a moment's acquaintance. Angel stalked Buffy and her mother, hinted at his desire to kill Buffy's mother, killed Buffy's teacher and then personally tortured Buffy's surrogate father. Not to mention Angel's trying to destroy the world.
I believe that Spike had proved he was worthy of Buffy's forgiveness and her love; and that she gave him both in the latter half of Season 7. While it might have taken awhile for them to begin a more wholesome sexual relationship than that which had almost destroyed them in Season 6, I believe they would have done it eventually if Spike had survived.
Another poster said that Buffy's not loving Spike was now canon. I disagree - it is what Spike believes, or said to motivate Buffy to leave him and live. If Buffy had said it, than it would be canon.
JW has been quoted as saying: "We need not have heroes so much as to all see ourselves as heroes." With respect to Buffy's creator, I think we will alwaysneed heroes! We didn't start watching BUFFY just to see Spike's cheekbones; we were intrigued and then amazed at the heroic exploits and courage of a small girl who fought vampires and demons every night. Wanting to have heroes and enjoying them when, in fictional or true form, they appear, doesn't prevent us from seeing ourselves as heroes, it encourages us to bring out the hero in ourselves.
Sorry for laying all these references to other post on you; I don't feel like doing several different posts here tonight...
Gail Well said, Gail. Definitely, it wasn't Luke and Laura. And definitely, Buffy "not loving Spike" is not "cannon" of any kind. Buffy said she did love him. And more than that . . . the set-up, years in the making, was for Buffy to come to accept and love Spike. It was realized - Buffy came to accept her darkside, love all of herself, move into the light, truly become a grown-up. And then they were done.
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Post by deborah on Sept 10, 2003 11:50:01 GMT -5
I don't think it is having it both ways. Angel was a good guy who went bad for a few months, Spike was a bad guy who has been good for a year. Angel was not forgiven right away, excpet for maybe by Buffy. Spike has a lot more to make up for so it is only logical that it will take a lot longer for him to win trust, although he got Buffy's long before anyone else's. I believe that had the show continued, Spike's realtionship with everyone would have become more like Angel's. And while it may be the S'Cubies opinion that Spike was more evolved than Angel (I'm not arguing that point at all) it never appeared to be the Scooby's opinion, and really they are the people in question, not us. You do not sound like a 5 yr. old for saying that - it's true - life is not fair. And I think that is one of Joss's big messages... after girl power of course. MissBuffy, it's JW who in his remarks at the Comic Con that started off this thread said Spike is more evolved than Angel. Few here would argue. You are right in that the difference between unsoulled Spike and Angel was beyond the notice of Scoobies. Strange that Joss/ME writers never gave any of the Scoobies the insight or perception to note or question the incongruity of Spike having the capacity and desire to help them in an unsoulled state for whatever reason and even more importantly, for desiring a soul before he had one. You'd have thought that Giles would have been stunned and fascinated at such an occurrance which surely would have been considered impossible according to the COW tradition and teachings.
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Post by missbuffy on Sept 10, 2003 11:54:38 GMT -5
Spike has a lot more to make up for than Angel? In what way? They both have thousands of murders and the like to make up for. And if we are talking about what was done just to Buffy and The Scoobies, Angel has Jenny's death to make up for - he killed a woman Giles was in love with. He also tortured Giles "for hours, and for pleasure", and tormented Buffy all those months . . . how is that less than what Spike has to make up for? No, no - I don't buy that. Buffy and The Scoobies didn't treat souled Angel differently than souled Spike because souled Angel somehow deserved better treatment. They treat souled Spike differently because they are different people in different circumstances - older, not so open-hearted, more cautious, etc - especially Buffy. OK, I can't possibly say any of this as well as you Spring, but I will give it a try. It's kind of jumpy... I don't mean what Angel or Spike has to make up for in their lives, or that I think that Angel somehow deserved better treatment. I was referring to only how I think the Scooby gang saw them. I always got the impression that the Scoobies - other than Xander - did not hold Jenny's murder against Angel. I was very surprised at how quickly they just seemed to let that go, it never seemed just. You are right, it has a lot to do with them being young and naive. The first three times the Scoobies had interaction with Spike, it involved three direct attempts to kill Buffy. And that's what they based their opinions of him on, this and the fact that he had already killed two Slayers. While Angel and Spike had both committed terrible murders in the past, only Spike seemed to be so focused on Slayers. Angel may have tormented Buffy for months, but Spike tried to torment her for years. I don't believe anyone put much weight on the fact that Angel was more efficient at it than Spike. And, while Angel was doing the stalking he could have killed Buffy and her Mom in their sleep but didn't. Angel did torture Giles, but Spike was there too and certainly did not help Giles. We know that he did not participate in any way, as do Buffy and Giles, but do the rest of them? And Drucilla, who is Spike's partner did help. Again, I'm not saying I think Angel should be let off the hook for that, I'm saying that I don't think the Scooby gang really distanced Spike from that. In Lover's Walk Spike kidnapped Willow and Xander, hurt Xander, and killed the shopkeeper. This is after Angel has returned with his soul, and basically been forgiven. So, Spike's wrong stays fresher in their minds than Angel's. And I know that what Angel did to Jenny was much worse. I also believe that their treatment of Spike changed after he got his soul. As many people have said, if Angel is not held accountable for his unsouled actions, then Spike should not be either. This is true, but Spike didn't get his soul until S7, and Angel came back with his. After the knowledge of Spike's sould spread, the way he was treated by the Scooby's - other than Giles - was improving. (I don't think Giles was right BTW.) Unfortunately for Spike, the dire circumstances, and TFE's influence on him, made it hard for them to really see him as an un-evil being. But, I do believe that would have changed if there had been time.
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Post by missbuffy on Sept 10, 2003 12:01:44 GMT -5
MissBuffy, it's JW who in his remarks at the Comic Con that started off this thread said Spike is more evolved than Angel. Few here would argue. You are right in that the difference between unsoulled Spike and Angel was beyond the notice of Scoobies. Strange that Joss/ME writers never gave any of the Scoobies the insight or perception to note or question the incongruity of Spike having the capacity and desire to help them in an unsoulled state for whatever reason and even more importantly, for desiring a soul before he had one. You'd have thought that Giles would have been stunned and fascinated at such an occurrance which surely would have been considered impossible according to the COW tradition and teachings. I agree completely. They always seemed so impressed with Angel for all the good he did even though he was a vampire, but NOBODY seemed to get as impressed as they should that Spike went in search of his soul and endured terrible tortures to receive it. I think they put a lot of wieght into the fact that Spike was only doing good because he was forced to by the chip, so I understand why they didn't get really interested in his good side then. But, once he decided to do good to impress them (well, mostly Buffy but they come along with that package) I don't understand why they weren't maybe even helping him find ways to get a soul.
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Post by deborah on Sept 10, 2003 12:03:36 GMT -5
To me, conferring Slayer power on all the potential Slayers in the world, does not send the message that Joss apparently intended. I don't see it as a confirmation that we can all be heros at all.
It's one thing to have a single and unique girl/woman as the Chosen One who possesses super-powers. But the prospect of having unknown thousands of girls endowed with Slayer strength and reflexes is somewhat alarming. To me I see them as an elitist Super-race of women who by means of their supernatural physical superiority will hold a natural advantage over "normal women." It doesn't make us all heros, it just means that a relatively select few of varying temperments and personal agendas will constitute a virtual master-race of women.
And this is a good thing, why?
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Post by deborah on Sept 10, 2003 12:06:51 GMT -5
I agree completely. They always seemed so impressed with Angel for all the good he did even though he was a vampire, but NOBODY seemed to get as impressed as they should that Spike went in search of his soul and endured terrible tortures to receive it. I think they put a lot of wieght into the fact that Spike was only doing good because he was forced to by the chip, so I understand why they didn't get really interested in his good side then. But, once he decided to do good to impress them (well, mostly Buffy but they come along with that package) I don't understand why they weren't maybe even helping him find ways to get a soul. But the chip did not compel Spike to help people. It only did one thing. It delivered pain when triggered by the intention to physically harm a human being. It couldn't stop Spike from indirectly engineering evil or force him to help anyone.
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Post by missbuffy on Sept 10, 2003 12:23:16 GMT -5
But the chip did not compel Spike to help people. It only did one thing. It delivered pain when triggered by the intention to physically harm a human being. It couldn't stop Spike from indirectly engineering evil or force him to help anyone. No, it did not compell him to help people... it forced him not to hurt people, and indirectly forced him to do good. Because he had a savage need to be violent (based on his excitement over being able to hit demons, and then turning against his kind without so much as a second thought), he did good for the sake of his evil side. And yes, he continued to engineer evil and try to harm the Scoobies in what limited ways he could. Which is why they weren't fascinated by his goodness. During Season 4 Spike didn't really help anyone, unless it was to save his own hide. In season 5 he slowly became more helpful, but that's exactly what I was saying - "I understand why they didn't get really interested in his good side then (S4). But, once he decided to do good to impress them (well, mostly Buffy but they come along with that package) I don't understand why they weren't maybe even helping him find ways to get a soul."
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