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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 10, 2003 12:56:22 GMT -5
OK, I can't possibly say any of this as well as you Spring, but I will give it a try. It's kind of jumpy... I don't mean what Angel or Spike has to make up for in their lives, or that I think that Angel somehow deserved better treatment. I was referring to only how I think the Scooby gang saw them. I always got the impression that the Scoobies - other than Xander - did not hold Jenny's murder against Angel. I was very surprised at how quickly they just seemed to let that go, it never seemed just. You are right, it has a lot to do with them being young and naive. The first three times the Scoobies had interaction with Spike, it involved three direct attempts to kill Buffy. And that's what they based their opinions of him on, this and the fact that he had already killed two Slayers. While Angel and Spike had both committed terrible murders in the past, only Spike seemed to be so focused on Slayers. Angel may have tormented Buffy for months, but Spike tried to torment her for years. I don't believe anyone put much weight on the fact that Angel was more efficient at it than Spike. And, while Angel was doing the stalking he could have killed Buffy and her Mom in their sleep but didn't. Angel did torture Giles, but Spike was there too and certainly did not help Giles. We know that he did not participate in any way, as do Buffy and Giles, but do the rest of them? And Drucilla, who is Spike's partner did help. Again, I'm not saying I think Angel should be let off the hook for that, I'm saying that I don't think the Scooby gang really distanced Spike from that. In Lover's Walk Spike kidnapped Willow and Xander, hurt Xander, and killed the shopkeeper. This is after Angel has returned with his soul, and basically been forgiven. So, Spike's wrong stays fresher in their minds than Angel's. And I know that what Angel did to Jenny was much worse. I also believe that their treatment of Spike changed after he got his soul. As many people have said, if Angel is not held accountable for his unsouled actions, then Spike should not be either. This is true, but Spike didn't get his soul until S7, and Angel came back with his. After the knowledge of Spike's sould spread, the way he was treated by the Scooby's - other than Giles - was improving. (I don't think Giles was right BTW.) Unfortunately for Spike, the dire circumstances, and TFE's influence on him, made it hard for them to really see him as an un-evil being. But, I do believe that would have changed if there had been time. No problem with the "jumpy." ;D You had said it was "logical" for The Scoobies to forgive Angel more quickly, because he had less to make up for - that is what I disagree with. It isn't at all "logical" or based on facts like "Angel had less to make up for." He didn't. What I was trying to say was that it isn't, ultimately, about Angel or Spike . . . it's about Buffy and The Scoobies. They (especially Buffy) treat Spike differently - with more suspicion, because THEY have changed. Just focusing on Buffy - she was young and idealistic and she adored (idealized, was totally infatuated by) Angel. Over and over, we get that imagery - her love is a "kind of blind love." She's in the ice-rink, looking at his "Angelus" face, and telling him she "didn't even notice." And on and on. It was just the opposite with Spike. She was older and extremely depressed and jaded and all closed off. She couldn't see any good in him and we get a lot of imagery in regard to this as well (e.g., Spike helping her fight off a demon while he is invisible to her). NOT that what you say about "Angel starting off good", etc, doesn't play some part. But mostly - to me- that's not the important part. No use trying to measure who did the worse stuff. It's not about Angel or Spike or what they deserve. It's not meant to make sense or be logical. It's about what Buffy is like when she encounters Angel, vs when she encounters Spike. It's about Buffy (and by extension, the Scoobies). It's about feelings, not logic. (Just an aside: Spike DID help Giles when he was being tortured by Angel - he talked Angel out of killing Giles with a chain-saw. Of course, Spike had entirely selfish motives - though this alliance with the Slayer and the "good" he did would have some very very very slow consequences to the positive).
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 10, 2003 13:01:27 GMT -5
I agree completely. They always seemed so impressed with Angel for all the good he did even though he was a vampire, but NOBODY seemed to get as impressed as they should that Spike went in search of his soul and endured terrible tortures to receive it. I think they put a lot of wieght into the fact that Spike was only doing good because he was forced to by the chip, so I understand why they didn't get really interested in his good side then. But, once he decided to do good to impress them (well, mostly Buffy but they come along with that package) I don't understand why they weren't maybe even helping him find ways to get a soul. Spike had no interest in getting a soul (up until the AR and they sure weren't gonna be helping him then - and he sure wasn't gonna ask). Up until the AR, Spike was clueless about the need for a soul - if Buffy and The Scoobies had said, "Spike how about we figure out how to get you a soul?" He would have been mystified as to why he should bother, and would have rejected the idea, I think.
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 10, 2003 13:02:43 GMT -5
To me, conferring Slayer power on all the potential Slayers in the world, does not send the message that Joss apparently intended. I don't see it as a confirmation that we can all be heros at all. It's one thing to have a single and unique girl/woman as the Chosen One who possesses super-powers. But the prospect of having unknown thousands of girls endowed with Slayer strength and reflexes is somewhat alarming. To me I see them as an elitist Super-race of women who by means of their supernatural physical superiority will hold a natural advantage over "normal women." It doesn't make us all heros, it just means that a relatively select few of varying temperments and personal agendas will constitute a virtual master-race of women. And this is a good thing, why? I thought of this image as a dramatic representation of a message we get from Season 4 onward: Sharing power is good (buffy & scoobies defeat the VERY elitist, alone, Adam). Consolidating power is bad. I think the image is meant to be extended . . . in other words . . . everyone with certain talents should have the opportunity to use them.
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Post by missbuffy on Sept 10, 2003 13:32:02 GMT -5
Spike had no interest in getting a soul (up until the AR and they sure weren't gonna be helping him then - and he sure wasn't gonna ask). Up until the AR, Spike was clueless about the need for a soul - if Buffy and The Scoobies had said, "Spike how about we figure out how to get you a soul?" He would have been mystified as to why he should bother, and would have rejected the idea, I think. You're most likely right. I just wonder why if they thought it was a good idea to re-soul Angel to get a good guy back, (And, yes I know that has a lot to do with Buffy's blind love for him.) wouldn't they think re-souling chipped Spike would also give them a great fighter for the good side? And like Angelus, Spike really wouldn't have had the option of refusing it. Just one of those things I always wondered... why didn't they curse more vampires?
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Post by missbuffy on Sept 10, 2003 13:53:27 GMT -5
No problem with the "jumpy." ;D You had said it was "logical" for The Scoobies to forgive Angel more quickly, because he had less to make up for - that is what I disagree with. It isn't at all "logical" or based on facts like "Angel had less to make up for." He didn't. What I was trying to say was that it isn't, ultimately, about Angel or Spike . . . it's about Buffy and The Scoobies. They (especially Buffy) treat Spike differently - with more suspicion, because THEY have changed. Just focusing on Buffy - she was young and idealistic and she adored (idealized, was totally infatuated by) Angel. Over and over, we get that imagery - her love is a "kind of blind love." She's in the ice-rink, looking at his "Angelus" face, and telling him she "didn't even notice." And on and on. It was just the opposite with Spike. She was older and extremely depressed and jaded and all closed off. She couldn't see any good in him and we get a lot of imagery in regard to this as well (e.g., Spike helping her fight off a demon while he is invisible to her). NOT that what you say about "Angel starting off good", etc, doesn't play some part. But mostly - to me- that's not the important part. No use trying to measure who did the worse stuff. It's not about Angel or Spike or what they deserve. It's not meant to make sense or be logical. It's about what Buffy is like when she encounters Angel, vs when she encounters Spike. It's about Buffy (and by extension, the Scoobies). It's about feelings, not logic. (Just an aside: Spike DID help Giles when he was being tortured by Angel - he talked Angel out of killing Giles with a chain-saw. Of course, Spike had entirely selfish motives - though this alliance with the Slayer and the "good" he did would have some very very very slow consequences to the positive). I really don't disagree with any of that. I just put more weight on the past actions than you do. I also probably misused the word logical - I agree that it's about feelings and not logic - I said it was "logical" for The Scoobies to forgive Angel more quickly, and I should have said I understand or can see why the Scoobies forgave Angel more quickly... It seems logical to me that they felt that way, NOT that any of their actions or feelings were based on logic. My logic being - they had seen more bad Spike than bad Angel, so they forgave Angel more quickly or even too easily. Which, I realize is very basic, and there are many more layers to it than that. But I think when people judge other people, a lot of the time it is based on the surface and not the deep levels of that person. Again, I don't disagree that you could look at it from the other angle completely and base it all on them (Buffy and the Scoobies) and not the two vampires.
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 10, 2003 14:08:18 GMT -5
You're most likely right. I just wonder why if they thought it was a good idea to re-soul Angel to get a good guy back, (And, yes I know that has a lot to do with Buffy's blind love for him.) wouldn't they think re-souling chipped Spike would also give them a great fighter for the good side? And like Angelus, Spike really wouldn't have had the option of refusing it. Just one of those things I always wondered... why didn't they curse more vampires? Spike would have been pretty pissed about that no sex stuff. Also, giving someone a soul wouldn't necessarily mean you'd be getting a good-guy, interested in fighting the good fight. Warren had a soul, for example. Also, how many vampires with that kind of curse would actually care so much about fighting for good that they wouldn't lose that soul? It's hardly a sure thing, with that no-happiness thing involved. I bet they'd be losing their souls just as fast as you could give them to them. And before anyone asks, no, I don't think it's possible for any vampire to be re-ensouled by that route with out the "no-happiness" thing. It seems absolutely essential to me.
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Post by missbuffy on Sept 10, 2003 14:33:07 GMT -5
Spike would have been pretty pissed about that no sex stuff. Also, giving someone a soul wouldn't necessarily mean you'd be getting a good-guy, interested in fighting the good fight. Warren had a soul, for example. Also, how many vampires with that kind of curse would actually care so much about fighting for good that they wouldn't lose that soul? It's hardly a sure thing, with that no-happiness thing involved. I bet they'd be losing their souls just as fast as you could give them to them. And before anyone asks, no, I don't think it's possible for any vampire to be re-ensouled by that route with out the "no-happiness" thing. It seems absolutely essential to me. Quite right on all points. Plus funny about Spike and no sex. (Personally, I think you and Patti would be more pissed about that than anyone though. )
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 10, 2003 15:57:27 GMT -5
Quite right on all points. Plus funny about Spike and no sex. (Personally, I think you and Patti would be more pissed about that than anyone though. ) Well, I would be majorly pissed if Spike stopped being able to have sex, but Patti could keep on dreaming just as easily as before.
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Post by RAKSHA on Sept 10, 2003 16:53:56 GMT -5
Angel did torture Giles, but Spike was there too and certainly did not help Giles. We know that he did not participate in any way, as do Buffy and Giles, but do the rest of them? And Drucilla, who is Spike's partner did help. Again, I'm not saying I think Angel should be let off the hook for that, I'm saying that I don't think the Scooby gang really distanced Spike from that. I'm snipping just one paragraph out of a very good post because I'm in a hurry. Actuallly, Spike didhelp Giles while he was being tortured. He saw that Angelus was intent on causing Giles' pain and eventual death, and suggested, in that comment about 'not fancying getting librarian out of the carpet', that Drusilla would get the information faster with her tricks, almost certainly knowing that Drusilla's tricks would not cause Giles physical pain.
It was a rather short-sided move on Spike's part, since Dru's trick got the information that would help end the world out of Giles much faster than Angelus' violence. And he did it not out of compassion for Giles, but because Buffy had threatened Drusilla's death if Giles perished. But whatever his motivation, Spike probably saved Giles' life, and possibly helped doom Angel - Giles would have held on for longer, Angelus would have killed or fatally damaged him, thus delaying or stopping the opening of the vortex to hell, which, once begun, could only be stopped by Angelus/Angel's being used as a living glob of DRANO...But Spike had no way of knowing that Angel's soul would be restored to him, all he knew was that the Slayer had sworn to destroy Angelus...
Gail
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Post by RAKSHA on Sept 10, 2003 17:04:57 GMT -5
You're most likely right. I just wonder why if they thought it was a good idea to re-soul Angel to get a good guy back, (And, yes I know that has a lot to do with Buffy's blind love for him.) wouldn't they think re-souling chipped Spike would also give them a great fighter for the good side? And like Angelus, Spike really wouldn't have had the option of refusing it. Just one of those things I always wondered... why didn't they curse more vampires? I really think the decision to try to re-soul Angel had a lot more to do with Buffy's love for him and her consequent pain after he turned evil than it did an attempt to bring back a corrupted great warrior to the bright side of the Force. Don't forget who made that decision - not Giles, not Xander, but Willow. Willow, who had been Buffy's Angel-romance confidante, and knew the mental anguish her friend had suffered, Willow who was a romantic love-conquers-all optimist at that point, and Jenny Calendar, who was feeling very guilty at her role in Angelus' return, originally teamed up to think of a way of re-souling him. And it was Jenny's plans that Willow used. I don't think anyone wanted to risk perpetrating the trauma of the Angel/Angelus/Buffy situation on anyone else, especially when it would involve someone who was disgustingly sexually obsessed (Scooby-view of Spike's lust-then-love for Buffy seasons 4-6) with their friend and Slayer. Gail
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Post by RAKSHA on Sept 10, 2003 17:10:48 GMT -5
I agree completely. They always seemed so impressed with Angel for all the good he did even though he was a vampire, but NOBODY seemed to get as impressed as they should that Spike went in search of his soul and endured terrible tortures to receive it. I think they put a lot of wieght into the fact that Spike was only doing good because he was forced to by the chip, so I understand why they didn't get really interested in his good side then. But, once he decided to do good to impress them (well, mostly Buffy but they come along with that package) I don't understand why they weren't maybe even helping him find ways to get a soul. Did any of the Scoobies ever know that Spike's chip didn't work on Buffy after her return from the dead? Knowing that he retained his devotion to her for so many months prior to the AR even though nothing restrained the 'evil soulless thing' from harming her, might have impressed them. It sure as hell should have impressed Buffy.
Gail
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Post by missbuffy on Sept 12, 2003 9:55:08 GMT -5
Spike had no interest in getting a soul (up until the AR and they sure weren't gonna be helping him then - and he sure wasn't gonna ask). Up until the AR, Spike was clueless about the need for a soul - if Buffy and The Scoobies had said, "Spike how about we figure out how to get you a soul?" He would have been mystified as to why he should bother, and would have rejected the idea, I think. Thought this was interesting. I happened to be watching The I in Team later on the same day you posted this. Causing this to jump right out at me: ----- While Spike starts counting the money, Giles looks the place over.Giles: Um, thinking about your affliction and, uh, your newfound discovery that you can fight only demons; it occurs to me that... I realize this is completely against your nature but... I-uh- Has it occurred to you that there may be a higher purpose-- Spike: Ugh! You made me lose count. (turns to face him) What are you still doing here? Giles: Talking to myself, apparently. Spike: Well piss off, then. (indicates the money in his hands) This bit of business wraps up any I got with you and your Slayerettes. From here on I want nothing to do with the lot of you. ---- And, I don't really have much of a point with that. I just thought it was interesting. Evidently the thought did at least cross Giles' mind at some point that Spike could be a warrior for good. But, as you said, Spike did not appear to have the desire.
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 12, 2003 10:09:59 GMT -5
Thought this was interesting. I happened to be watching The I in Team later on the same day you posted this. Causing this to jump right out at me: ----- While Spike starts counting the money, Giles looks the place over.Giles: Um, thinking about your affliction and, uh, your newfound discovery that you can fight only demons; it occurs to me that... I realize this is completely against your nature but... I-uh- Has it occurred to you that there may be a higher purpose-- Spike: Ugh! You made me lose count. (turns to face him) What are you still doing here? Giles: Talking to myself, apparently. Spike: Well piss off, then. (indicates the money in his hands) This bit of business wraps up any I got with you and your Slayerettes. From here on I want nothing to do with the lot of you. ---- And, I don't really have much of a point with that. I just thought it was interesting. Evidently the thought did at least cross Giles' mind at some point that Spike could be a warrior for good. But, as you said, Spike did not appear to have the desire. Miss Buffy, if you are interested in this aspect of things, you might enjoy my analysis of The I in Team, the episode this comes from. www.soulfulspike.com/TheIinTeamReview.htmI do agree that Giles begins to wonder if Spike might not be meant to fight for the good, but at that point in time (Spike has just gotten his chip a few weeks before and is still being hunted by The Initiative) all Spike cares about is trying to stay allive while not being able to feed, and figuring out a way to get rid of that chip.
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Post by RAKSHA on Sept 13, 2003 20:13:25 GMT -5
To me, conferring Slayer power on all the potential Slayers in the world, does not send the message that Joss apparently intended. I don't see it as a confirmation that we can all be heros at all. It's one thing to have a single and unique girl/woman as the Chosen One who possesses super-powers. But the prospect of having unknown thousands of girls endowed with Slayer strength and reflexes is somewhat alarming. To me I see them as an elitist Super-race of women who by means of their supernatural physical superiority will hold a natural advantage over "normal women." It doesn't make us all heros, it just means that a relatively select few of varying temperments and personal agendas will constitute a virtual master-race of women. And this is a good thing, why? I have nothing against elitists; I'm one myself, though I don't believe that any person is BETTER because of a particular characteristic. I believe that peoples' talents, skills, intelligence, capabilities should be encouraged and they should have the chance to use them in a positive way.
That being said, I do have concerns about the share-the-Slayerhood result of Willow's spell. While it's a wonderful thing to share power, it can be a TERRIBLE thing to give power to those who are not ready to have it and who have no one to teach them how to use that power. The spell endowed hundreds, maybe thousands of girls aged about 11 and up, with the super-strength and more-than-human speed and reflexes. Which is all to the good for fighting vampires and demons, but could be quite problematic in school. Imagine what Faith, a Chosen slayer with a Watcher (when she started) might have done if she had gained Slayer power without a watcher at the age of 13? She obviously came from a terrible family life, and had possibly been abused. She could have easily taken out her anger on anyone who annoyed her or even hassled her, and killed because she did not know her own strength. What could some of these little and young girls do BEFORE a Watcher is found for them? Kill or seriously injure a kid who teases them in the school hallway? Shove a teacher who they don't like and end up hurting them?
"With great power comes great responsibility", to loosely quote Spider-Man. It's certainly true in this case. How many girls will irreparably damage their own lives by hurting others with strength they are unable to control?
From everything I've observed in the Jossverse, it seems to me that the Slayer power is intended for the fighting and killing of vampires and other evil beings/creatures, NOT for a daily life lived with other children and teenagers. Slayers are driven to kill demons. Watchers have traditionally sheltered the Slayers to some extent, and taught them to channel their powers effectively to kill monsters. It's highly probable that many Watchers taught their Slayers while the girls lived, at least part of the time, in the real world. Certainly Nikki appeared to have a fairly normal background, and speak in a manner consistent with a strong-minded young woman from the less affluent areas of New York City rather than a Watcher's home like the sadly isolated Kendra.
But the girls empowered by Willow's spell do not have Watchers; except for the surviving Potentials-turned-Slayers. And it will be a long time, months and even years, before all of them do get Watchers.
Also, it is unclear whether the girls, with the exception of the Potentials in Buffy's house, had the opportunity to choose to except Slayer power or not.
And if the changes in the Slayer line caused by Buffy's two returns from death empowered the First to return with deadly force, then won't the First be REALLY empowered by the total disruption of the Slayer 'dynasty'?
[shadow=brown,left,300]Gail [/shadow]
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