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Post by Matthew on Nov 11, 2004 3:46:32 GMT -5
I think it was the classic Indiana Jones type bravado... Huh... I'd tend to disagree... Indy's bravado seem to me to come more from the fact that he's the good guy, and KNOWS that he's the good guy. Sawyer's every move in this episode was calculated to get people to hate him, to harm him, perhaps to go as far as to kill him for what he feels are his crimes. True deathwish... feels that he needs to be punished, executed, but can't do it himself, so he tries to goad others into doing it. His snark at Sayid, his teasing of Kate, his willingness to let everyone believe that he was the bad guy, willing to keep something that benefitted him not, but which the withholding of harmed another.. He hates himself: he's trying to piss everyone off to do what he can't do himself.
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Post by Matthew on Nov 11, 2004 3:51:29 GMT -5
It is also the case that Sawyer is insane, or a fair approximation thereof, for not just saying, early on, that he didn't HAVE the damned medicine. I mean, he knew it was a life-or-death issue, and regardless of his personal issues or wanting people to maybe not just assume he was hoarding the inhalers, he could have just said "I don't have them". His own issues, though, seem to include a desire to be punished. Meaning that he didn't 'fess up because - what? He wanted to be beaten and tortured? Yes.
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Post by Linda on Nov 11, 2004 6:57:51 GMT -5
Hi all! No deep thoughts about this one. But, of course, not because I got distracted by a tan line or anything. Nope, not me. Mmmmm ... tan line ... uh, was I saying something? Thanks for all the posting everyone. I'm too tired to quote everyone to say "ayup" tonight. I will say eetah that Nicki's a Smartypants, though. And eetah with Matthew that Sawyer's self-loathing is the reason for his actions and button-pushing. And that it doesn't matter if he ever found the original Sawyer, since all his hatred is now directed inward. Another possible layer to Sawyer's stubborn, stupid refusal to be likeable: as a Confidence Man, he was adept at getting people to trust him. He probably finds a twisted comfort in making sure that no one trusts him now. I dunno if this is significant, but Sawyer seems to be the only flashedback character so far who did the *clearly* morally correct thing BEFORE he got to the island -- by stopping the con. His main "issue" right now is dealing with having become the thing he hated most. But the first step was to stop acting that way and he'd done so before the crash. Also, I'd like to say that I admire Josh Holloway's performance here. He added a layer of sadness and hurt every time one of his self-defeating actions brought out the contempt or anger he was trying for. (See, I don't always watch him just for the dimples and tan line. ;D) Miscellaneous thoughts: Sawyer hits back at Boone and Sayid. He doesn't hit Jack or Kate back. Jack physically and Kate verbally, despite the fact that before the torture scene, Jack and Kate seemed to be the ones who hit/hurt him the most. (After the torture scene, Sayid takes the physically-hurting-Sawyer prize, though.) Is it because he values Jack's and Kate's opinions the most and is looking to them to grant him death or absolution? Is that why he keeps asking Kate to kiss him? As a sign of forgiveness? Or that he is loveable on some level, despite his sins? (The fact that she so easily hurts his feelings indicates that it's more than physical attraction, IMO.) In which case, yep, Spikey. Jack should stop saying self-righteous things to Kate in anger. During Tabula Rasa, he told Kate "I am not a murderer" and then was forced to be the one to put the Marshall out of his misery. And then today, he told Kate "We are not savages" and then participated in the torture. Locke's theoretical description of a person who did not want Sayid to send out a rescue signal very easily fit himself: someone who was profiting by being on the island. Being able to walk is a pretty large profit. I agree that it is ominous that Locke deliberately points Sayid towards Sawyer. The delayed fuse suggestion was lame. The antenna still needed to be switched on in order for the triangulation process to work, right? How can you rig a delayed on-switch? Sayid was way too ready to believe Locke. And as a result of acting upon Locke's hint, he is now isolated on his own walkabout. BTW, didn't Spring already confess to hitting Sayid on the head last week? Linda, and Hawaii pretty -- the sand and ocean and sky really are those colors here.
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Post by Linda on Nov 11, 2004 7:06:46 GMT -5
Okay folks:
The list is back! I've made a few changes and added the last two.
Assume the IMO and please feel free to post disagreements on which is the most significant turning point, etc. You would probably be right, since I usually write and add to the list at 2am.
Characters flashed back so far; 1) Flashback decision turning point; 2) Island decision turning point; 3) what we don't yet know; 4) Catch phrase (just because)
Kate; 1) trusting Ray to drive her to the train station; 2) trusting Jack to tell him about why she's a fugitive; 3)why she's a fugitive; 4) "I have trust issues."
Locke; 1) flying to Australia to go on the Walkabout; 2) getting up again after missing the boar the first time (The scene exactly echoed the beach scene with the toe shot, except shoed. There may also have been an offscreen turning point having to do with the Big Roaring Thing, but I can't be sure.); 3) how he became paraplegic in the first place; 4) "Don't tell me what I can't do!"
Jack; 1) chasing after his father; 2) chasing after his father's specter; 3) what he did to send his father off the deep end; 4) "You don't have it in you."
Sun; 1) staying with Jin; 2) revealing her secret to Michael; 3) why she is so certain that Jin couldn't break away from her father (there was a whole lotta not-talking in her flashbacks); 4) "Let's elope" or 11:15?
Charlie; 1) taking that first hit; 2) burning the last of his stash; 3) how his brother recovered while Charlie did not; 4) "I want to be bloodied by rocks, God!" -- oops! that was Matthew ;D -- "I'm a bloody rock god!" (Actually, I think "It's about the music" would fit better by the end of the episode.)
Sawyer; 1) stopping the con; 2) not burning his letter; 3) how he got to Australia; 4) "I want a kiss."
Not necessarily significant patterns: IMO, Kate's & Sun's island turning points have to do with trusting another human being. (Kate has since gone back on her decision to trust Jack with her past.) Locke's & Jack's turning points have to do with trusting the weirdness of the island. Charlie's & Sawyer's have to do with learning to trust themselves -- which Sawyer does not yet do, although not burning the letter indicates to me that he may someday.
Linda, 3 am. Huh.
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Post by Lola m on Nov 11, 2004 7:32:21 GMT -5
Hi all! No deep thoughts about this one. But, of course, not because I got distracted by a tan line or anything. Nope, not me. Mmmmm ... tan line ... uh, was I saying something? Mmmmmm. Hmmm? Wait, were you saying something? Wow. Hadn't thought of it exactly like that, but you are very right. It's all in his head now and he's the only one who can fix it. Bolded the part that I particularly really really liked. Right there with you scooter! I have been back and forth so many times on Locke in such a short time I think my head is dizzy. Only thing he's got going for him right now is that he looks too much like he must be the guilty one. Which makes me suspicious that he is not. Great point about the triangulation piece. Because Sayid was starting to get the signal right before he got thumped. Uh huh. Starting to get the feeling here that Hawaii is a rather attractive location, but I'm not quite sure if that's the impression you were trying to give. You must learn to be less cryptic Linda! ;D ;D Lola
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Post by Sara on Nov 11, 2004 8:34:05 GMT -5
Looking back, though, I find I appreciate the Jack episode more as we see more of Jack. **goes briefly to happy shirtless Jack place** I mean, more of Jack's responses and actions. He's very decisive on a lot of things, especially medical crisis or times when he's feels on solid ground. But we've seen several examples of how he can be very uncertain in a leader role, or be swayed by emotions or other people. And I think we got a lot of insight into why he's that way in the Jack ep. Lola Absolutely. Jack's trying his best in a role he's not entirely suited for, much like when Buffy was trying to be the hard-ass general of the Potentials.
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Post by Sara on Nov 11, 2004 8:53:29 GMT -5
Hi all! No deep thoughts about this one. But, of course, not because I got distracted by a tan line or anything. Nope, not me. Mmmmm ... tan line ... uh, was I saying something? <snip> I agree that it is ominous that Locke deliberately points Sayid towards Sawyer. The delayed fuse suggestion was lame. The antenna still needed to be switched on in order for the triangulation process to work, right? How can you rig a delayed on-switch? Sayid was way too ready to believe Locke. And as a result of acting upon Locke's hint, he is now isolated on his own walkabout. <snip> I agree. Plus if Sayid had thought about it for a few moments he might have realized it's pretty much impossible for Sawyer to have used a delayed fuse simply because Sawyer had no idea when he'd be sending the rocket in the first place--he had to wait until he saw one of the other two. So even if he'd lit a cigarette the moment he saw Sayid's rocket he'd have still had to seriously haul ass to get to Sayid so quickly, and in the process would have made a hell of a lot of noise.
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Post by Nickim on Nov 11, 2004 8:59:41 GMT -5
Hi all! No deep thoughts about this one. But, of course, not because I got distracted by a tan line or anything. Nope, not me. Mmmmm ... tan line ... uh, was I saying something? Thanks for all the posting everyone. I'm too tired to quote everyone to say "ayup" tonight. I will say eetah that Nicki's a Smartypants, though. And eetah with Matthew that Sawyer's self-loathing is the reason for his actions and button-pushing. And that it doesn't matter if he ever found the original Sawyer, since all his hatred is now directed inward. Another possible layer to Sawyer's stubborn, stupid refusal to be likeable: as a Confidence Man, he was adept at getting people to trust him. He probably finds a twisted comfort in making sure that no one trusts him now. I dunno if this is significant, but Sawyer seems to be the only flashedback character so far who did the *clearly* morally correct thing BEFORE he got to the island -- by stopping the con. His main "issue" right now is dealing with having become the thing he hated most. But the first step was to stop acting that way and he'd done so before the crash. Also, I'd like to say that I admire Josh Holloway's performance here. He added a layer of sadness and hurt every time one of his self-defeating actions brought out the contempt or anger he was trying for. (See, I don't always watch him just for the dimples and tan line. ;D) Miscellaneous thoughts: Sawyer hits back at Boone and Sayid. He doesn't hit Jack or Kate back. Jack physically and Kate verbally, despite the fact that before the torture scene, Jack and Kate seemed to be the ones who hit/hurt him the most. (After the torture scene, Sayid takes the physically-hurting-Sawyer prize, though.) Is it because he values Jack's and Kate's opinions the most and is looking to them to grant him death or absolution? Is that why he keeps asking Kate to kiss him? As a sign of forgiveness? Or that he is loveable on some level, despite his sins? (The fact that she so easily hurts his feelings indicates that it's more than physical attraction, IMO.) In which case, yep, Spikey. Jack should stop saying self-righteous things to Kate in anger. During Tabula Rasa, he told Kate "I am not a murderer" and then was forced to be the one to put the Marshall out of his misery. And then today, he told Kate "We are not savages" and then participated in the torture.[i/]
Locke's theoretical description of a person who did not want Sayid to send out a rescue signal very easily fit himself: someone who was profiting by being on the island. Being able to walk is a pretty large profit.
I agree that it is ominous that Locke deliberately points Sayid towards Sawyer. The delayed fuse suggestion was lame. The antenna still needed to be switched on in order for the triangulation process to work, right? How can you rig a delayed on-switch? Sayid was way too ready to believe Locke. And as a result of acting upon Locke's hint, he is now isolated on his own walkabout.
BTW, didn't Spring already confess to hitting Sayid on the head last week?
Linda, and Hawaii pretty -- the sand and ocean and sky really are those colors here.
Really awesome thoughts, Linda. What I bolded makes perfect sense to me. What you said about Jack's statements is cool. I had noted that he said the "were not savages," but became one, but I'd forgot the other line. Very good catch. I really think Locke's power has gone to his head. His RL boss was someone much younger than him, who ridiculed him all the time. Now, all these people look up to him--pretty heady stuff.
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Post by Nickim on Nov 11, 2004 9:14:54 GMT -5
Okay folks: The list is back! I've made a few changes and added the last two. Assume the IMO and please feel free to post disagreements on which is the most significant turning point, etc. You would probably be right, since I usually write and add to the list at 2am. Characters flashed back so far; 1) Flashback decision turning point; 2) Island decision turning point; 3) what we don't yet know; 4) Catch phrase (just because) Kate; 1) trusting Ray to drive her to the train station; 2) trusting Jack to tell him about why she's a fugitive; 3)why she's a fugitive; 4) "I have trust issues." Locke; 1) flying to Australia to go on the Walkabout; 2) getting up again after missing the boar the first time (The scene exactly echoed the beach scene with the toe shot, except shoed. There may also have been an offscreen turning point having to do with the Big Roaring Thing, but I can't be sure.); 3) how he became paraplegic in the first place; 4) "Don't tell me what I can't do!" Jack; 1) chasing after his father; 2) chasing after his father's specter; 3) what he did to send his father off the deep end; 4) "You don't have it in you." Sun; 1) staying with Jin; 2) revealing her secret to Michael; 3) why she is so certain that Jin couldn't break away from her father (there was a whole lotta not-talking in her flashbacks); 4) "Let's elope" or 11:15? Charlie; 1) taking that first hit; 2) burning the last of his stash; 3) how his brother recovered while Charlie did not; 4) "I want to be bloodied by rocks, God!" -- oops! that was Matthew ;D -- "I'm a bloody rock god!" (Actually, I think "It's about the music" would fit better by the end of the episode.) Sawyer; 1) stopping the con; 2) not burning his letter; 3) how he got to Australia; 4) "I want a kiss." Not necessarily significant patterns: IMO, Kate's & Sun's island turning points have to do with trusting another human being. (Kate has since gone back on her decision to trust Jack with her past.) Locke's & Jack's turning points have to do with trusting the weirdness of the island. Charlie's & Sawyer's have to do with learning to trust themselves -- which Sawyer does not yet do, although not burning the letter indicates to me that he may someday. Linda, 3 am. Huh. But, the trust issue is a pattern in itself. For me, it comes back to the difference between faith and hope. You can hope a stranger is trustworthy, but only time will tell. You can have faith a long-time friend is trustworthy, because they have been in the past--you know their pattern of behavior. Being thrown together with all these people who are mostly strangers it would and should take time for that trust to develop. Locke has trusted the island so quickly because it's given him something good, but confidence men give their victims something good at first, too. I think your list is great!!
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Post by Sara on Nov 11, 2004 9:32:26 GMT -5
I knew it. I knew it! Godfrickindammit. I mean, I couldn't even watch the torture scene; I had to leave the room and hide until it was over. And I'm afraid that Jack and Sayid are both gonna have to work their asses off to get back into my good graces. 'Cause I don't hold with torture. Maybe, just maybe, as a last resort, AFTER you asked him and he wouldn't even tell you if he had it, I'd understand. Not approve, but not be so pissed off as I am right now. I don't like torture. I'm gonna take a stand and say it's not good. Don't like Jack or Sayid right now, either. I'm gonna place myself in the minority and say while I hated the torture scene, I understand how it came to that and that it didn't alter my opinion of the guys involved. You're right--they never asked Sawyer if he had it, but he still had plenty of opportunities to tell them he didn't (whether they'd have believed him is another matter entirely). Sawyer certainly could have told Boone instead of sending him back to the caves bleeding from various locales, or given someone like Kate free rein to go through all of his things and see for themselves it wasn't there. But he didn't, even as their desperation and Shannon's condition escalated. He'd also shown himself unwilling to cooperate in this regard in the past--remember the laptop batteries? As for Jack, don't forget he'd just watched Shannon almost suffocate to death. Should he have considered other remedies? Yeah, but he's a typical Western doctor--if a remedy wasn't made by a manufacturer, it's not going to be the first thing that leaps to mind. So in his mind it really was a matter of life and death. And from that perspective I personally don't see a whole lot of difference between his actions and Buffy forcing a cross down a vampire's throat in order to find out where Willow, Giles, Cordelia and Jenny were being held hostage, or Spike doing whatever he did to that doctor to try and obtain information that might save Fred's life. I also think there's one other thing to consider before directing a whole lot of antipathy specifically toward Sayid and Jack: there's no way anyone on that island could have not heard Sawyer screaming. And yet no one came to see what was happening or--excepting Kate--to try to stop it. To me, that makes all of them just as accountable. But what saves it all for me is the impact their actions had on both men--Jack's when it was happening, Sayid's after. Their self-loathing pulled me out of my anger and disgust, much like Sawyer's did with Kate. I still don't like what they did, but I do still like them. *shrug* Just another couple of pennies thrown in during my constant quest to avoid real work.
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Post by Sue on Nov 11, 2004 9:38:42 GMT -5
Hi all! No deep thoughts about this one. Locke's theoretical description of a person who did not want Sayid to send out a rescue signal very easily fit himself: someone who was profiting by being on the island. Being able to walk is a pretty large profit.
To the first bold I say: Right, Linda, there were no deep thoughts whatsoever in your post. To the second I say: I've got 13 pages of posts to catch up on and many pages from the last episode too, but has this thought been discussed? That whatever takes place there: Locke's walking; Charley's non-addiction, Kate's non-escapee status (that one for sure); Jack's having put his dad behind him: will become undone? That what "happens on the Island, stays on the Island?"Or does Locke maybe just not want to return to his former life? It really had not occured to me that the "improvements" would not be lasting once away from the sphere of Island-influence.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Nov 11, 2004 9:49:02 GMT -5
I don't think the island fulfills wishes in a "I wish I had a million dollars!" conscious-wishing way. (Geez, what a sentence - am I making sense?) I'm more getting the feeling that it - in a non-sentient way - responds to the subconscious. It responds to people's underlying hopes and fears and the like. Kinda like the real world, only writ large, and more quickly and literally and directly. (As in Sawyer, in the Real World, in a more roundabout way, becoming exactly what he was afraid he'd become.) What Spring said. Anne, still waiting for the Krell machinery
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Nov 11, 2004 9:50:54 GMT -5
that one made my heart hurt. I hated that torture scene. I didn't want to see Sayid the way I saw him for those moments. Me too. I think Sayid scared himself, that's why he's going walkabout.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Nov 11, 2004 9:52:40 GMT -5
When Sawyer was walking out of the ocean, I kept waiting for those waves to get a little lower. Kind of like when Spike's sheets 'almost' slipped off of him. Gee, I'm full of deep insights tonight. Let's see. How about Locke? Did he intentionally lead Sayid to use that knife, not to get rid of Sawyer so much, but so that Sayid would face a truth about himself? I thought of you and the other Sawyer-fan S'cubies, during that scene. I said to Paul "Squeals of girlish glee are heard across the land".
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 11, 2004 10:00:55 GMT -5
It won't matter if he ever finds the original Sawyer or not: he has still become this loathsome thing in his pursuit of him: the letter is to him now. Everyday reminder of what he has become. His life's mission is torturing himself for becoming that which he despised: more so now than to find and punish the original Sawyer. Yep. Well said. Of course, the hook is, that in his understanding that he is a loathsome thing, there is hope that he could find his way out of the pit.
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