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Post by Karen on Jan 6, 2005 15:01:58 GMT -5
I've been pretty busy lately dealing with car stuff and an ice storm but, since we had power, I was able to watch this episode. I can help with the French song. The English version that Karen found, Beyond the Sea, is based on a French song from the 40's by Charles Trenet called simply La Mer and the lyrics are very different. I'll get to that in a minute but I also happen to have a French copy of Finding Nemo and so knew immediately what Shannon was talking about. Nemo was released in French theatres last December but I don't know for sure when the video was available; I do know that Europe often gets stuff released earlier than the States. Ok, the lyrics: In French, they're much more enigmatic than the English song. I'll give the French so you can compare it to Sayid's notes and then I'll give you a rough translation. La mer Qu'on voit danser le long des golfes clairs A des reflets d'argent La mer Des reflets changeants Sous la pluie
La mer au ciel d'été confond Ses blancs moutons Avec les anges si purs La mer bergère d'azur Infinie
Voyez Près des étangs Ces grands roseaux mouillés Voyez Ces oiseaux blancs Et ces maisons rouillées
La mer Les a bercés Le long des golfes clairs Et d'une chanson d'amour La mer A bercé mon coeur pour la vieThe sea That one sees dancing along the clear gulfs With silver reflections The sea The reflections changing Under the rain The sea Under a summer sky mixed with Its white sheep With the angels so pure The sea, shepherdess azure and Infinite See Close by the ponds These tall wet reeds See These white birds And these rusted (rust-colored?) houses The sea Cradled them Along the clear gulfs And with a song of love The sea Cradles my heart for life I'm going to suggest that it's important that they used the French version and not just because the notes were made by the Crazy French Lady. There are some interesting things going on in the French lyrics that just aren't conveyed by Beyond the Sea, (even though I like that song, too, Karen). Just FYI, Kevin Kline does a nice rendition of the French version in French Kiss. One other thing: I'm with Nicki on Kate's model plane being somehow connected to her father. Didn't Kate say at one point that her father was somehow military? Maybe he was shot down (or something similar) and she holds herself responsible. You heard it here first! Hi Becky! Thanks so much for the French translation. I like it so much better than the English version, but the music still makes me feel so sad.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Jan 6, 2005 15:07:14 GMT -5
I know. And there's that whole "Sawyer and Kate plunging into the water together" thing, also. And remember how the episode opened with Kate up in the tree, and Sawyer on the ground? Also, I wanted to agree with you about the swimming . . . why didn't Sawyer take his pants off too? Discrimination! Unfair undressing practices! I protest! I think he didn't take his pants off cause the last time Kate saw him naked she remarked on how cold the water must be...and he didn't want to give her another freebie.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Jan 6, 2005 15:17:43 GMT -5
You're right - I was jumping to conclusions there and thinking she always lies about her name! (And nice analogy with the layers and the case. ) I am also really wondering about her explanation of the little plane. The man I loved/the man I killed. This is meant to be read as both true - she loved someone and somehow killed them. But is this true? And is it just part of the truth? Because convincing a bunch of guys to rob a bank, pretend to be all smoochy with one (I presume she was pretending?!), shooting folks up - just to get your hands on a little toy plane that belonged to the man you loved/killed? That's not just being sentimental - that's, well, that's looney! So the little plane has to be more than just that. Plus, on a show where there is no such thing as "just a prop", a toy plane in the wreckage of a crashed real plane is just creepy and potentially very very creepy in its implications. Lola what if...that little plane had something in it - if it was some sort of tracking device and it caused the plane crash. What if Kate was in love with the man who was bringing her in - if he believed she had betrayed him or maybe she did...no, this doesn't make sense. How in the world can they resolve all this...it's just SO deliciously complicated... And "Locke is evil". You heard it first here. Again.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Jan 6, 2005 15:22:34 GMT -5
Uhm . . . we hear that the plane's fusilage is about to be going underwater, and soon after that the little toy plane is rescued from its underwater grave. It all seems related to that whole - we see a polar bar in the comics, and we see a real polar bear, thing. But how? And I agree with Lola - what in the WORLD could be so important about that little toy plane, that you hook up with bank robbers, and take part in vicitimizing and scaring the beejeezus out of dozens of people (and risking their lives), and then doing that shooting? Kate had to have been motivated by something more than getting her hands on that little toy as a memento. If that was her only motivation for participating in that nasty robbery, she's got a huge problem with moral bankruptcy. I have thought...was the plane some sort of signal, that had to be removed? Like...was a hit man going to open that case and if he found the plane, was he going to make sure the plane crashed? Except...she TOOK the case, and the plane crashed anyway! And when she was in Australia at the farm, was the case with her then? Did the lawman have it? Was he the man she loved and 'killed'? So many questions...
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Jan 6, 2005 15:25:49 GMT -5
**smirks back at Spring** You start collecting several guys, you can't keep your eye on all of them all the time, you know. Sayid, Spike. You have to sleep sometime. And when you do? I'll slip in, have myself a real good day. **smirks again, for good measure** Lola ;D Yes, you two busy yourselves with Sayid.... I'll be slipping away with Sawyer....all I need is a locked box or some shiny toys to lure him with.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Jan 6, 2005 15:38:04 GMT -5
Hi all! Wow. It was quiet here last night. I guess everyone was Aliasing. Neat comments so far, though. Thanks especially to Karen for "Beyond the Sea" lyrics. Rose seemed to empathize with Charley a whole lot more than everyone else. Also: who did she think should be the one who could help Charley? Linda, and Hawaii still pretty (with apologies to snow s'cubies) Ditto the thanks to Karen for Beyond the Sea. And I've decided on my game plan. I record both shows...After Lost I'll come post here. Then I'll go watch Alias and post there either late or the next day. I don't want to miss the fun of the after Lost posting again. Rose and Charlie. It seemed to me she was saying Charlie needed God's help. She talked about faith I think and then she prayed with him. I liked that they showed that someone is relying on faith to get through the ordeal. Out of that many people, there would at least be a few. And if believing or 'wishing' makes things come true on this island, than Rose's husband probably IS alive.
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Post by Sara on Jan 6, 2005 15:38:21 GMT -5
Hi all! Wow. It was quiet here last night. I guess everyone was Aliasing. Neat comments so far, though. Thanks especially to Karen for "Beyond the Sea" lyrics. (And Erin: *snerk* Sack & Loone) Just a few post & run thoughts: Firstly: Kate and Sawyer are *fun.* They really do seem to have a connection. They can make each other smile and laugh. And they consistently watch each other's back(sides). Although Sawyer may be Season Six Spike-y: willing to help his lady, but wanting too much -- as well as being a work-in-progress kind of guy. (BTW: Agree with y'all that Sawyer should have taken off his pants for the sake of equity.) ;D Secondly: On the surface, it seems that since it was Jack who got to open Kate's locked case, it would be Jack who gets the girl. Except: Jack's methods for getting the key, the case and Kate's truth strikes me as having more in common with bang-against-a-rock coercion than Sawyer's let's-make-a-deal persuasion (lock-picking?) IMO, Sawyer always gives her a choice -- she didn't have to give up the case in the first place. After she did, the possession = 9/10ths thing kicked in for him. And Locke said the easiest way isn't always the best. (Hmmmm. Locke.) Also: the safe deposit box required two keys. Whazzat mean? Thirdly: When Sawyer was trying to open the case via rock, I flashed back to that old commercial with the gorilla bashing the suitcase to prove its durability. (Okay, I'm really, really, old. But I thought it was funny. : Fourthly: There sure were a lot of dead bodies involved with that case. First in the water and then the Marshall. Eetah with Patti: Ewwwww. Fifthly: Boone & Shannon -- does he really think that constantly putting her down will make her a better person? Or does he even want that? I seem to recall some sabotage-y incidents in previous episodes. Once, Shannon was crying over one of the bodies on the beach. IIRC, Boone made a very dismissive comment about the first sign we'd ever seen that Shannon was capable of thinking about someone other than herself. Also, he almost freaked her out again when Jack had almost talked her out of an asthma attack. Sixthly: Sayid & Shannon. Huh.Seventhly: Rose & Charley. These two were both resuscitated by a desperate Jack. Rose in the Pilot Ep and Charley in the last ep. Was there island magic involved in both instances -- e.g. the power of Jack's wish? Will they be alive if everyone gets rescued? Rose seemed to empathize with Charley a whole lot more than everyone else. Also: who did she think should be the one who could help Charley? Linda, and Hawaii still pretty (with apologies to snow s'cubies) First bolded part: I think the way it worked is she needed the bank manager to open up the safety deposit vault with his key; then she could open the box itself with hers. Second bolded part: Strangely enough, I can kinda see it. Third bolded part: On first glance I presumed Rose meant God--I seem to have this sense of her as a woman of faith, and since she followed up her remark with a prayer it would fit. However, if she understands something we don't about the way the island makes things happen... Hmmm...
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Jan 6, 2005 15:39:00 GMT -5
I'd say the plane belonged to Kate's father, and that she "killed" him in the sense of disappointing him some way--just like Jack and his dad. The way she said 'the man I loved' makes me hope strongly it wasn't her father she was talking about.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Jan 6, 2005 15:41:19 GMT -5
No one's mentioned it yet, so just in case: the movie Shannon was referring to that features "Beyond the Sea" over the end credits is Finding Nemo. Why an ABC show of all shows was unable to just use the damn title baffles me, since ABC is a Disney subsidiary--unless Disney really is that pissed off at Pixar. Maybe it was so it wouldn't be such a blatant plug? I even knew, and I havent' seen the movie. But since ABC/Disney are affliliated, if they'd said the name, it would have introduced a note of 'reality' into the show that would have been jarring I think.
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Post by Karen on Jan 6, 2005 15:41:28 GMT -5
Yes, you two busy yourselves with Sayid.... I'll be slipping away with Sawyer....all I need is a locked box or some shiny toys to lure him with. Yes, you need to find those shiny things, Patti. I'll keep Sawyer warm for you in the meantime.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Jan 6, 2005 15:42:47 GMT -5
My quicky thoughts before I read the entire thread: This episode was in the grand tradition of Joss Whedon arc pacing - you have a big dramatic buildup, then a lighter episode, a breather, before the next ax falls. Great Kate/Sawyer chemistry! I think she actually smiled at him - much sparkage. A nice piece of symmetry with Rose and Charlie - Jack brought Rose out of her depression, now she's doing the same for Charlie. I thought what Rose said was interesting (not sure I remember it exactly) - something about a thin line between faith and denial, and she's on the better side. I'm guessing that's significant, given that the island responds to their thoughts. It's also interesting that Rose has faith that she'll see her husband again, and Jack is denying all possibility of rescue (I wonder why he's so convinced?). Question (two parts): What is the song Island!Shannon is singing in French, and is it the same one that Crazy French Lady's music box plays? Someone with tapes of the previous episodes, please check. Afterthought - All of a sudden, the ocean is rising and driving them further away from the beach. Is this because Jack is so set on moving inland, and he's influencing the environment? Is the island forcing them further up and further in? Whatever is going on, it's suspicious. Oh Anne, I like the 'further up and further in' thought....nice. *smile* like that book too.
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Post by Karen on Jan 6, 2005 15:46:09 GMT -5
First bolded part: I think the way it worked is she needed the bank manager to open up the safety deposit vault with his key; then she could open the box itself with hers. Second bolded part: Strangely enough, I can kinda see it. Third bolded part: On first glance I presumed Rose meant God--I seem to have this sense of her as a woman of faith, and since she followed up her remark with a prayer it would fit. However, if she understands something we don't about the way the island makes things happen... Hmmm... You know, now that you say it, I can too. I had a thought earlier, that momentarily escaped me, about Sayid and Shannon. How different they are. Sayid is so logical - looking for answers in the facts. In technology. Shannon so ethereal - not in a motherly/good/Claire-type sense, but in a down-to-earth in touch with her feminine side, but not sure how to make that be of benefit to the group. Pretty clueless actually, but you can see that she does want to help. And Sayid seems to bring that out in her (and also previously, when they climbed that cliff with the transceivers - she volunteered to go along). Until he ruined it by just not "getting" it. The song. He couldn't hear the song.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Jan 6, 2005 15:47:59 GMT -5
I've been pretty busy lately dealing with car stuff and an ice storm but, since we had power, I was able to watch this episode. I can help with the French song. The English version that Karen found, Beyond the Sea, is based on a French song from the 40's by Charles Trenet called simply La Mer and the lyrics are very different. I'll get to that in a minute but I also happen to have a French copy of Finding Nemo and so knew immediately what Shannon was talking about. Nemo was released in French theatres last December but I don't know for sure when the video was available; I do know that Europe often gets stuff released earlier than the States. Ok, the lyrics: In French, they're much more enigmatic than the English song. I'll give the French so you can compare it to Sayid's notes and then I'll give you a rough translation. La mer Qu'on voit danser le long des golfes clairs A des reflets d'argent La mer Des reflets changeants Sous la pluie
La mer au ciel d'été confond Ses blancs moutons Avec les anges si purs La mer bergère d'azur Infinie
Voyez Près des étangs Ces grands roseaux mouillés Voyez Ces oiseaux blancs Et ces maisons rouillées
La mer Les a bercés Le long des golfes clairs Et d'une chanson d'amour La mer A bercé mon coeur pour la vieThe sea That one sees dancing along the clear gulfs With silver reflections The sea The reflections changing Under the rain The sea Under a summer sky mixed with Its white sheep With the angels so pure The sea, shepherdess azure and Infinite See Close by the ponds These tall wet reeds See These white birds And these rusted (rust-colored?) houses The sea Cradled them Along the clear gulfs And with a song of love The sea Cradles my heart for life I'm going to suggest that it's important that they used the French version and not just because the notes were made by the Crazy French Lady. There are some interesting things going on in the French lyrics that just aren't conveyed by Beyond the Sea, (even though I like that song, too, Karen). Just FYI, Kevin Kline does a nice rendition of the French version in French Kiss. One other thing: I'm with Nicki on Kate's model plane being somehow connected to her father. Didn't Kate say at one point that her father was somehow military? Maybe he was shot down (or something similar) and she holds herself responsible. You heard it here first! Thanks for the lyrics Becky! How cool is this place? ;D
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Jan 6, 2005 15:50:36 GMT -5
Yes, you need to find those shiny things, Patti. I'll keep Sawyer warm for you in the meantime. thanks ever so Karen! But guess what? I got the box and the shiny things already. ;D
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Post by Lola m on Jan 6, 2005 17:56:21 GMT -5
I've been pretty busy lately dealing with car stuff and an ice storm but, since we had power, I was able to watch this episode. I can help with the French song. The English version that Karen found, Beyond the Sea, is based on a French song from the 40's by Charles Trenet called simply La Mer and the lyrics are very different. I'll get to that in a minute but I also happen to have a French copy of Finding Nemo and so knew immediately what Shannon was talking about. Nemo was released in French theatres last December but I don't know for sure when the video was available; I do know that Europe often gets stuff released earlier than the States. Ok, the lyrics: In French, they're much more enigmatic than the English song. I'll give the French so you can compare it to Sayid's notes and then I'll give you a rough translation. La mer Qu'on voit danser le long des golfes clairs A des reflets d'argent La mer Des reflets changeants Sous la pluie
La mer au ciel d'été confond Ses blancs moutons Avec les anges si purs La mer bergère d'azur Infinie
Voyez Près des étangs Ces grands roseaux mouillés Voyez Ces oiseaux blancs Et ces maisons rouillées
La mer Les a bercés Le long des golfes clairs Et d'une chanson d'amour La mer A bercé mon coeur pour la vieThe sea That one sees dancing along the clear gulfs With silver reflections The sea The reflections changing Under the rain The sea Under a summer sky mixed with Its white sheep With the angels so pure The sea, shepherdess azure and Infinite See Close by the ponds These tall wet reeds See These white birds And these rusted (rust-colored?) houses The sea Cradled them Along the clear gulfs And with a song of love The sea Cradles my heart for life I'm going to suggest that it's important that they used the French version and not just because the notes were made by the Crazy French Lady. There are some interesting things going on in the French lyrics that just aren't conveyed by Beyond the Sea, (even though I like that song, too, Karen). Just FYI, Kevin Kline does a nice rendition of the French version in French Kiss. One other thing: I'm with Nicki on Kate's model plane being somehow connected to her father. Didn't Kate say at one point that her father was somehow military? Maybe he was shot down (or something similar) and she holds herself responsible. You heard it here first! Ooooh, very very interesting! Thanks so much on the French and English translation. This version is much more enigmatic. It's almost more a love song about the sea itself. So the song did call the sea to come closer to the island! ;D ;D Seriously though, I think you are right that it will turn out to be important that they used the French version. Lola
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