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Post by Rachael on May 26, 2005 16:34:32 GMT -5
Hmmm.... Arzt is partz? Is there any reason left to watch.... Hee. Seriously, about Arzt - the character bothered me. And not for the reasons y'all might think. His very existence bothered me - because he was, as Lola identified him, a redshirt. No purpose but to come onstage, be offensive and irritating, and then get blowed up. I mean, if you're gonna kill a peripheral character, does it have to be so dead obvious from the second he walks on the screen? And it smacks of laziness, to create an unlikeable character just to kill him. (See the third Alien movie for an example of this phenomenon carried to its extreme....)
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Post by Rob on May 26, 2005 16:37:21 GMT -5
On the other hand, if Jack doesn't pull his little deception they'd still be standing there arguing over who gets to carry the dynamite. This way she's happy because she thinks she's carrying the goods, he's happy because he knows he is, and they all get back to the hatch before nightfall. Win-win all the way around. Disagree. This is the method of a leader with no confidence in himself or his followers. All Jack had to do was say, "I'm definitely carrying one of these. The rest of you draw straws." Or - "Locke - if you're up for it, you and I will carry these." If Kate or Hurley start to protest, he just cuts them short with the same kind of statement he made to Kate: "You want me to lead, you'll have to take my direction. We don't have time to argue. Now let's get moving." or some such thing. It just isn't true that they would have necessarily spent a lot of time arguing. I doubt they would have. Kate didn't argue much when Jack did finally tell her upfront. Jack DID say he was definitely carrying one. Several times. Kate wasn't backing off, 'cause that isn't in her nature. They'd have been there all friggin' day. That doesn't mean I think he did the right thing; it seemed to be a pointless lie. If I had to choose two people who could handle themselves in the wild, that'd be Kate and Locke. Jack's a city boy. I could understand if it were merely an issue of trust, but that doesn't wash either. Jack doesn't trust Locke any further than he could throw him; why would he so readily agree to HIM carrying a pack of dynamite? In Jack's mind, no one is less trustworthy at the moment then John Locke. No...if it were merely about trust, Jack would've asked Hurley to carry it. It seemed more like macho egotism to me. I was mildly irritated, by the way, when Jack snarked at Hurley about volunteering to carry the dynamite...as if overweight people can't handle life and death responsibility. That little speech to Kate at the hatch about leadership rang pretty hollow to me. Jack's clearly a deeply flawed man who shouldn't be the single voice making decisions. His own damn issues get in the way.
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Post by Sharky on May 26, 2005 16:43:16 GMT -5
Hee. Seriously, about Arzt - the character bothered me. And not for the reasons y'all might think. His very existence bothered me - because he was, as Lola identified him, a redshirt. No purpose but to come onstage, be offensive and irritating, and then get blowed up. I mean, if you're gonna kill a peripheral character, does it have to be so dead obvious from the second he walks on the screen? And it smacks of laziness, to create an unlikeable character just to kill him. (See the third Alien movie for an example of this phenomenon carried to its extreme....) I agree. It's so hackneyed that we've come up with the "redshirt" shorthand. Because, it was an obvious device when used 40 years ago on the original Trek, and it didn't even start there. Much praise to Joss, but I don't like the "we have to kill somebody" attitude. It's only effective when unexpected.
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Post by SpringSummers on May 26, 2005 17:35:08 GMT -5
Jack DID say he was definitely carrying one. Several times. Kate wasn't backing off, 'cause that isn't in her nature. They'd have been there all friggin' day. But this is because Jack doesn't know how to lead, so he "has to" resort to the deception thing. Because he doesn't know how else to avoid "being there all friggin' day" arguing with Kate. My point is that this resort to deception points to weakness - not strength or smarts - in Jack. Yes, but that is a good reason to keep at least one of them alive. Agree, agree, agree, agree, agree.Lying to someone "for their own good," making decisions for them without their knowledge or input "for their own good," it's totally patronizing. Definitely it was hollow. Jack's deceptive way of "leading" pointed to a lack of real leadership, and a lack of confidence and trust in himself, and in Kate.
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Post by SpringSummers on May 26, 2005 17:40:43 GMT -5
Disagree. This is the method of a leader with no confidence in himself or his followers. All Jack had to do was say, "I'm definitely carrying one of these. The rest of you draw straws." Or - "Locke - if you're up for it, you and I will carry these." If Kate or Hurley start to protest, he just cuts them short with the same kind of statement he made to Kate: "You want me to lead, you'll have to take my direction. We don't have time to argue. Now let's get moving." or some such thing. It just isn't true that they would have necessarily spent a lot of time arguing. I doubt they would have. Kate didn't argue much when Jack did finally tell her upfront. Jack DID say he was definitely carrying one. Several times. Kate wasn't backing off, 'cause that isn't in her nature. They'd have been there all friggin' day. That doesn't mean I think he did the right thing; it seemed to be a pointless lie. If I had to choose two people who could handle themselves in the wild, that'd be Kate and Locke. Jack's a city boy. I could understand if it were merely an issue of trust, but that doesn't wash either. Jack doesn't trust Locke any further than he could throw him; why would he so readily agree to HIM carrying a pack of dynamite? In Jack's mind, no one is less trustworthy at the moment then John Locke. No...if it were merely about trust, Jack would've asked Hurley to carry it. It seemed more like macho egotism to me. I was mildly irritated, by the way, when Jack snarked at Hurley about volunteering to carry the dynamite...as if overweight people can't handle life and death responsibility. That little speech to Kate at the hatch about leadership rang pretty hollow to me. Jack's clearly a deeply flawed man who shouldn't be the single voice making decisions. His own damn issues get in the way. I wanted to add that I thought this business, with Jack making a decision for Kate without her knowledge or consent, added to the whole "voluntary and involuntary" actions contrast we saw throughout the episode - what we choose for ourselves, what is chosen for us. Actual slaves and the hostage Walt shown on one end of the spectrum - Jin in wide wide ocean, with the wind blowing through his hair, the picture of freedom (for the moment, anyhow) at the other end.
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Post by RAKSHA on May 26, 2005 18:35:58 GMT -5
On the other hand, if Jack doesn't pull his little deception they'd still be standing there arguing over who gets to carry the dynamite. This way she's happy because she thinks she's carrying the goods, he's happy because he knows he is, and they all get back to the hatch before nightfall. Win-win all the way around. Disagree. This is the method of a leader with no confidence in himself or his followers. All Jack had to do was say, "I'm definitely carrying one of these. The rest of you draw straws." Or - "Locke - if you're up for it, you and I will carry these." If Kate or Hurley start to protest, he just cuts them short with the same kind of statement he made to Kate: "You want me to lead, you'll have to take my direction. We don't have time to argue. Now let's get moving." or some such thing. It just isn't true that they would have necessarily spent a lot of time arguing. I doubt they would have. Kate didn't argue much when Jack did finally tell her upfront. I've never thought that Jack is much of a leader. Why the heck would he leave Claire unguarded except for Charlie a good deal of the time - he knows that her baby is a target, the minute the CFL announced that she'd lost her own kid, Jack should have put a couple of brawny men (or fast women with guns) around Claire and little Turnip-head. And why hasn't Jack at least tried to find a suitable sanctuary for the people in case the Others, or the monster, came after them in an organized attack? Or was Jack dumb enough to think that Ethan was the only "Other" there?
And why hasn't Jack started teaching other castaways basic medical techniques - if something happens to him, everyone's in trouble, as Sun couldn't do it all herself. He should also have Sun do some teaching, to him and others. They'd better have some herbal remedies prepared; the medical supplies won't last for ever. Everyone should know CPR, and let's hope one of the survivors knows how to make soap - they're gonna need that too eventually.
I don't mind that many questions remain to be answered. Hopefully more will be revealed next season.
GAIL
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Post by Guest Alice on May 26, 2005 19:37:53 GMT -5
**nods nods nods nods** The numbers were trying SOOOOOOO hard to keep him off that damn plane! Shorting out his electricity, all the trouble getting the car and out of the hotel, the flat tire, the problems at the airport. Dude!! Does anyone think that the island didn't want Hurley there?
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Post by Guest Alice on May 26, 2005 19:50:13 GMT -5
[/color][/quote] Oh, I'll be back for the next season. The two hour finale had me riveted to my seat for the most part...and I got goose bumps the moment I realized the Others were going after Walt rather than Aaron. That was a zinger. Beautifully acted throughout, with loads of emotion and tension. The ending sequence featuring Locke rushing to blow the hatch despite Hurley's panic (and Walt's earlier concerns) was chilling. Hurley isn't generally the sort of guy to freak; I'd say he's earned him the right to have their attention when he demands it. If anyone wasn't convinced that Locke is a dangerously obsessed man, observe the expression on his face as he rushes to light that fuse. Terry O'Quinn has been truly great all year long. However....I'm feeling pretty cold overall. It's been a very long and complicated year watching this show. I think it demands more of viewers than just about anything else on the air because the interweaving plots are so complex and layered. The viewers, therefore, deserve a reward for their attention, and that comes in the form of providing answers. Not to everything, of course; what fun would it be if there was no cliffhanger of any kind? Still...little or nothing was resolved in any meaningful way. 1. Ok, so the hatch revealed an a big air duct. Wow. I'll bet my friends have never seen an air duct this big. 2. So...on the other side of the island there lives a large group of pale "Deliverance" rejects who own a gas-powered boat and whisper to selected people in the jungle. Fortunately for Walt, their weakness lies in their apparent inability to hang on to hostages. Hell, these yahoos couldn't even keep an eye on a woman who was 8 3/4 months pregnant! Side note: I think Danielle aided Claire in her escape. The scratch occurred because Claire didn't know who to trust, and reacted violently. Speaking of the mysterious escape...that was the first major instance when fans got annoyed with the snail's pace being employed to tell the story. The old amnesia trick was little more than a cheap writing stunt. In short, Abrams and crew have told an amazing long-form story loaded with questions...without little or no meaningful answers. That will cause a lot of people to lose patience with all the convoluted delays. "Veronica Mars" did it just right: we got some major answers in the season-long arc of Lilly's murder, but there's still a ton of room for speculation about other developments. "Lost" has been all developments with no resolutions. [/quote] You're right Rob. And that all kind of ties back to my issue about how long can you keep a show about people shipwrecked on a mysterious island going without getting ridiculous? Mind you I still enjoyed this episode, and the season. I'm just not sure that I'll stay a fan as the seasons progress.
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Post by Lola m on May 26, 2005 21:06:07 GMT -5
I really liked the finale. I think it was truly representative of the season as a whole. Mystery, adventure, danger, a little humor. Bits of character development added to the mix. I think the writers did answer a couple of questions. Most importantly that the "others" are real, and not just CFL's imaginary enemies. We found out that the Black Rock is a ship, that the hatch does not belong to a submarine, and that the island is a whole lot bigger than anyone expected. We learned more about Jin's backstory. The other characters learned more about Locke, Hurley, and the CFL. I am one who likes the unanswered questions. The writers couldn't answer all the questions in the first season finale! What would they do next year? Besides, I was a big fan of the X-Files until they started answering the questions. Better no answers on a well-made show, than really lousy answers or a blandly-written show. Then again, I can appreciate that not everybody is a fan of delayed gratification. P.S. Spring, I'll start looking right away! I'll join you. I too enjoyed the finale. Exciting, scary, gasp moments and a few awwww moments. Jin looking so free and happy on the boat. The horrible end to their attempt to find help. Hurley and the hatch. Jack and Locke confronting each other. Danielle and the baby. Liked the list of things that we did learn. And oh my, Walt!! Great episode!
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Post by Lola m on May 26, 2005 21:06:54 GMT -5
Hmmm.... Arzt is partz? Is there any reason left to watch.... #smirk# Hurley alone is reason to watch.
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Post by Lola m on May 26, 2005 21:10:13 GMT -5
**nods nods nods nods** The numbers were trying SOOOOOOO hard to keep him off that damn plane! Shorting out his electricity, all the trouble getting the car and out of the hotel, the flat tire, the problems at the airport. Dude!! Does anyone think that the island didn't want Hurley there? **bounce, bounce, bounce** Yes!!! That's it! Hurley has some kind of . . . power? Or resistance? Because he used the numbers. So the island doesn't want him there because it can't do things to him!
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Post by Sharky on May 26, 2005 21:14:07 GMT -5
**bounce, bounce, bounce** Yes!!! That's it! Hurley has some kind of . . . power? Or resistance? Because he used the numbers. So the island doesn't want him there because it can't do things to him! Yes, it's all about Hurley. I decided that for certain when I saw the looks between Walt and him. He puts the stop to the island's plans, making him the anti-Locke brakes.
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Post by Lola m on May 26, 2005 21:18:51 GMT -5
**bounce, bounce, bounce** Yes!!! That's it! Hurley has some kind of . . . power? Or resistance? Because he used the numbers. So the island doesn't want him there because it can't do things to him! Yes, it's all about Hurley. I decided that for certain when I saw the looks between Walt and him. He puts the stop to the island's plans, making him the anti-Locke brakes. *snortle* Good one. #yeahbaby# But, seriously dude, I did wonder about the look between Hurley and Walt. Seems . . . well, intriguing.
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Post by Sharky on May 26, 2005 21:23:35 GMT -5
*snortle* Good one. But, seriously dude, I did wonder about the look between Hurley and Walt. Seems . . . well, intriguing. Beyond the cheap joke, I meant what I said. I suspect Hurley is the "savior" of flight 815. And, I think on some level he and Walt recognized each other.
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sydneyb7
N'ubie
If you obey all the rules, you miss all the fun.
Posts: 9
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Post by sydneyb7 on May 26, 2005 21:50:25 GMT -5
Wow. That's a lot of multicultural testosterone for one little boat. So, why did Sawyer have his shirt on? Hmmmm? Kate got to take hers off. Ok, Karen. I know you love Sawyer, but Jack's MY main man. He's got better biceps than Sawyer and looks better with his shirt off. Yeeehaaawww!!!!! I just want to jump into my tv and make out with him.
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