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Post by Lola m on Nov 1, 2006 23:07:41 GMT -5
Excellent points all. Which makes me wonder if all is as it seems. Whatever else Juliet is, I don't think she's ever struck any of us as stupid. So why take such a risk with someone she barely knows, especially when that dossier undoubtedly told her Jack turned in his own father for being a bad doctor? I think there's more going on here, myself. There is definitely more going on here, agree. It's hard to say what game they are really trying to run on Jack. The best Jack can do is try to stay true to himself and keep his eye on his own end game (gaining his freedom and that of his friends). One thing I feel sure of: neither Ben nor Juliet have Jack's best interests in mind. They are trying to use him, and don't really care how they might hurt him, or his friends. **nods** Neither side is on Jack's side. But how can either Juliette or Ben think that Jack doesn't know that? I really hope Jack turns the tables on both of them.
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Post by Lola m on Nov 1, 2006 23:12:42 GMT -5
OK, I think I'm getting the hang of this: Jossverse: Don't have a good relationship. Lostverse: Don't have an epiphany. Simpsonverse: Don't have a cow.
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Post by rich on Nov 1, 2006 23:26:26 GMT -5
OK, I think I'm getting the hang of this: Jossverse: Don't have a good relationship. Lostverse: Don't have an epiphany. Simpsonverse: Don't have a cow. #outtahere#
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Post by Rachael on Nov 2, 2006 0:27:00 GMT -5
Ah. Mr. Eko also gets a vision from someone whose death he caused, eh? I guess once you find something that works, you stick with it....
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Post by Rachael on Nov 2, 2006 0:42:45 GMT -5
That must have been her favorite song. I hope so, because otherwise, I totally get why she hates funerals. The big black mist monster is the scariest thing the island has going for it, IMO. Since the roaring Id monster disappeared, anyway. Whatever DID happen to the Treeshaker?
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Post by Rachael on Nov 2, 2006 0:45:05 GMT -5
If Benry really is sick, does that help prove they are on another island - a non-magically healing island? Or else the island just doesn't like him. Who could blame it?
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Post by Rachael on Nov 2, 2006 1:04:00 GMT -5
Hmm. Injuries you get ON the island don't heal, maybe, but injuries and illnesses you arrived with do?
But really...I was just thinking about the ethical implications of Jack possibly deciding not to do the surgery and knowingly letting Ben die. Now there's this whole new wrinkle.
How good a doctor IS Jack? 'Cause there's this whole Hippocratic Oath thing, and if he does this, he's not a doctor anymore.
And also - which part of this is the mindfulk, hmm? Is it an elaborate double fulk?
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Post by Rachael on Nov 2, 2006 1:21:04 GMT -5
Interesting. I was thinking about the fact that Eko probably wouldn't survive this ep (it felt telegraphed - especially considering how dark his Island visions continued to be), and what it meant about his redemption the entire time I was watching. And I was thinking, well, do we really know he's redeemed? I mean, we know in some ways he's tried to make amends - to his brother. But what did we really know?
Now I sort of get it. Eko wasn't redeemed; he wasn't even seeking redemption. He was too arrogant to see the bad in what he did. I can buy the whole, "I did what I needed to do to survive" bit, but that doesn't make it right. That's what confession is for, if you go in for that sort of thing. You have to be sorry - even if you don't think you had any choice in what you did.
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Post by Rachael on Nov 2, 2006 1:22:32 GMT -5
The Others are playing a deep game. Jack is a healer. They want to compromise him in a way he can't come back from. Really. If he goes for this - if he agrees to murder Ben, the Others will own him. But: Is Jack a bad man? I don't think so. Well, this is why the two stories were being run parallel. Will Jack do what he thinks he needs to do to survive, even if it costs him his soul? Eko did - repeatedly.
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Post by Rob on Nov 2, 2006 1:38:58 GMT -5
Well, once and for all the producers can't say everything that has happened on "Lost" can be explained in a non-supernatural way. Black smoke doesn't wrap itself around people and throw them against trees.
Right?
I mean, I'm sure I would have seen something of this phenomenon on the Weather Channel by now.
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Post by Rachael on Nov 2, 2006 1:42:02 GMT -5
Well, once and for all the producers can't say everything that has happened on "Lost" can be explained in a non-supernatural way. Black smoke doesn't wrap itself around people and throw them against trees. Right? I mean, I'm sure I would have seen something of this phenomenon on the Weather Channel by now. Yeah, I'm gonna back you up on this one.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 2, 2006 6:47:54 GMT -5
Well, once and for all the producers can't say everything that has happened on "Lost" can be explained in a non-supernatural way. Black smoke doesn't wrap itself around people and throw them against trees. Right? I mean, I'm sure I would have seen something of this phenomenon on the Weather Channel by now. Yeah, but notice that no one has ever seen the black smoke but Eko. So it could be explained as a guilt-based delusion of his somehow (possibly enhanced by some kind of drug that's in the food or water, because Eko's not the only one who's had "delusions") . . . that causes him to say, see the polar bear as black smoke . . . It's reaching, yeah, but I do think there's a reason no one else has ever seen the black smoke - that reason being to keep it just barely in the realm of the possibly non-supernatural. Notice how the smoke is nowhere around when Locke & co get there - not a trace.
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Post by Karen on Nov 2, 2006 8:12:19 GMT -5
Well, once and for all the producers can't say everything that has happened on "Lost" can be explained in a non-supernatural way. Black smoke doesn't wrap itself around people and throw them against trees. Right? I mean, I'm sure I would have seen something of this phenomenon on the Weather Channel by now. Hee! The black smoke was awesome! Very big and black and damn scary. Also, sneaky. It didn't look like smoke to me as much as it looked like those black magnetic flakes that are in that kids' drawing tablet that uses a magnetic pencil to move them around to make a picture. Poor Mr. Eko. He finally made peace with his actions which were born out of love and took a wrong turn. If only his arrogance had allowed him to confess the theft sooner, he might have found self-forgiveness sooner, but he was who he was and not a 'bad' man, but one who did what he felt he had to do to survive. Even though deep down he felt that what he did was justified, he had a load of guilt layered on that - a lot of it came from his brother condemnation of him, and it darkened his soul until he came to terms with that - with a little help from the island. I loved the scene with him and his brother as kids at the end walking off together to play. That was probably his last real loving memory he had of his life.
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Post by Sara on Nov 2, 2006 8:51:59 GMT -5
Interesting. I was thinking about the fact that Eko probably wouldn't survive this ep (it felt telegraphed - especially considering how dark his Island visions continued to be), and what it meant about his redemption the entire time I was watching. And I was thinking, well, do we really know he's redeemed? I mean, we know in some ways he's tried to make amends - to his brother. But what did we really know? Now I sort of get it. Eko wasn't redeemed; he wasn't even seeking redemption. He was too arrogant to see the bad in what he did. I can buy the whole, "I did what I needed to do to survive" bit, but that doesn't make it right. That's what confession is for, if you go in for that sort of thing. You have to be sorry - even if you don't think you had any choice in what you did. I was having many of the same thoughts as I tried to fall asleep last night. He can tell himself he did what he had to in order to survive, and I'm sure to a certain extent that's true. But we also saw what happened in Yemi's church--a man was on the floor begging for his life, totally at Eko's mercy. Yet mercy was the last thing on Eko's mind. I'm not saying I was shedding any tears for the guy, especially given his execution of that woman earlier in the week. But what Eko did still wasn't right--and it wasn't a matter of survival. Hubris, man--it's a bitch. Meanwhile, it also occurred to me that we now know why the Others are always so focused on who is and isn't a good person. 'Cause I know I sure as hell wouldn't want to be someone the island considers bad.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Nov 2, 2006 9:06:11 GMT -5
Before I forget...
Juliet and her little Dylan music video cue cards - Why didn't it occur to any of the Others that if they asked Jack to help Ben, he'd be bound by the Hippocratic Oath to do so? He might have to think about it a bit, but Jack would have operated on Ben.
I think the Others are still playing Jack. What better way to break a doctor than to ask him to "accidentally on purpose" kill his patient?
Or Juliet could be telling the truth about what she wants, in which case there's trouble in Pleasantville and a regime change on the way. It's an ugly, evil and inexcusable thing to ask of a doctor, in any case.
The Others have really mishandled our people, which is their bad luck now. Although they were probably just doing what they were told, like good little hatch-rats... Tests within tests within tests, and who is reviewing the results? Is there still someone at Hanso, running the experiments?
Wild speculation: Our group will eventually team up with the Others and escape from the lab together. Or I could just be blathering...
I can't get this thought to gel, but it was something about Jack being asked to violate his sacred oath as a doctor by killing his patient vs Eko choosing to violate the sanctity of the priesthood (he chose to become his brother, and therefore could be said to be bound by his brother's oath) by killing, and in the church at that.
Eko chose the way of death for what he told himself was the good of the village. Jack is being given the same choice, to kill someone for the greater good. The island Id Monster doesn't believe that the end justifies the means, at least in Eko's case. It should get interesting, if the writers are up for the challenge.
Anne, I dunno, it's too early
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