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Post by Rachael on Nov 5, 2006 15:04:45 GMT -5
I think it's unclear; they could be caused by the same phenomenon, but they manifest differently. The Treeshaker/Id Monster roared and shook the trees, scaring the bejeezus out of all of the survivors in the first couple of weeks of the show. The Black Smoke thing is much more elusive and subtle. Well, it's subtle, except when he's growling, grabbing you and tossing you around. Well, sure. I meant "subtle" in the sense of "lurky". Everyone heard the Big Roaring Thing, but hardly anyone's seen the Black Smoke.
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Post by Lola m on Nov 6, 2006 13:49:22 GMT -5
Yeah, but notice that no one has ever seen the black smoke but Eko. So it could be explained as a guilt-based delusion of his somehow (possibly enhanced by some kind of drug that's in the food or water, because Eko's not the only one who's had "delusions") . . . that causes him to say, see the polar bear as black smoke . . . It's reaching, yeah, but I do think there's a reason no one else has ever seen the black smoke - that reason being to keep it just barely in the realm of the possibly non-supernatural. Notice how the smoke is nowhere around when Locke & co get there - not a trace. Actually Locke saw it (and was grabbed by it) in season one and Jack saw it at the same time (Remember the famous Locke line: "I wonder what Jack saw." Vlad Hmmmmm. And we've had the recent conversation between Locke and Eko about how Locke saw a light . . .
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Post by Lola m on Nov 6, 2006 13:51:47 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Charlie saw the black smoke with Eko at some point during "Psalm 23." Right around the time Charlie asked if Eko was going to beat him with his Jesus stick. I can't remember if Charlie saw the smoke or not - I mean, being there and seeing it are two different things. But let's say Charlie did see the black smoke back then. Someone else seeing black smoke only, is a lot different from someone else seeing black smoke grab Eko and toss him around. I just think the fact that no one else saw the "black smoke attack" was deliberate, and keeps it all outside the "absolutely has to be supernatural" realm. If we can believe that Eko seeing his brother was hallucination/delusion, we can also believe that Eko seeing "whatever was attacking him" as black smoke was also hallucination/delusion. Or at least, I can see it that way. I thought the black smoke acted and sounded suspiciously like the polar bear(s) on the island do. To me, the most "supernatural" thing going on on Lost, is around Hurley and his numbers. I mean, YES, you could see it all as coincidence, so it is not absolutely supernatural. But wow, what are the odds? **nods** I think the isolation is meant to give us ambiguity. Even if the smoke monster has been seen by others before, for example, it doesn't rule out Mr Eko hallucinating this particular manifistation of it. Remembering what he'd seen before and imposing this on his thoughts about Yemi and so on.
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Post by Lola m on Nov 6, 2006 13:52:11 GMT -5
I think it's unclear; they could be caused by the same phenomenon, but they manifest differently. The Treeshaker/Id Monster roared and shook the trees, scaring the bejeezus out of all of the survivors in the first couple of weeks of the show. The Black Smoke thing is much more elusive and subtle. Well, it's subtle, except when he's growling, grabbing you and tossing you around. #rofl1#
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Post by Lola m on Nov 6, 2006 13:57:44 GMT -5
Eetahing Matthew and KMInfinity and everyone else who is saying that the choice of To Kill a Mockingbird is not just causual. But I can't decide if it's because both Juliet and Benry are just trying to mess with him and see what he does, or if Juliet is using it to tell Jack "be like Atticus Finch, stick with your convictions".
All of which is pointless in my mind. Jack would never botch a surgery on purpose.
I know this. And that fact that they don't? Means the Others are not as "all knowing" as they think. IMHO.
Now. Watch me be completely wrong about it all. ;D
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Post by leftylady on Nov 6, 2006 18:47:21 GMT -5
The beautiful scene Eco followed Yemi to: So luscious; so perfect. Red flowering bushes all over. My first thought was the Garden of Eden or Paradise. Sure sign that Eco was going to die. leftylady Or dead already. Funny that Juliet gave Jack a cheeseburger (in Paradise?), too. Where the heck *did* she get the beef and perfectly made and obviously fresh, bun for it? When she said 'I grew the cow, butchered it, milled the wheat", etc., her tone was sarcastic. So, if they're in touch with the outside world, why don't they just send Benry off for an operation instead of going through this whole elaborate idea to take down a plane to bring Jack there. Doesn't ring true. cheeseburger (in Paradise?) ;D ;D Since my original post I've also seen a comparison of the paradise / garden to the Garden of Gethsemane. The imagry fits with Spring's mention of removing the rock and finding the empty tomb. leftylady
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Guest forgot my password
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Post by Guest forgot my password on Nov 6, 2006 22:27:03 GMT -5
Eetahing Matthew and KMInfinity and everyone else who is saying that the choice of To Kill a Mockingbird is not just causual. But I can't decide if it's because both Juliet and Benry are just trying to mess with him and see what he does, or if Juliet is using it to tell Jack "be like Atticus Finch, stick with your convictions".All of which is pointless in my mind. Jack would never botch a surgery on purpose. I know this. And that fact that they don't? Means the Others are not as "all knowing" as they think. IMHO. Now. Watch me be completely wrong about it all. ;D I agree the issue of Benry getting an operation is a red herring. I too have a feeling the point of all this with Jack at least is to see if they can “break” Jack by eliminating his altruism. I agree with Rich that the plan is to compromise Jack by targeting his medical ethics. Perhaps to “teach” Jack and the Losties that survival comes before morality? That survival is the basis of morality? Sure seems to resonate with Eko’s tale. I think Eko’s death fits the paradigm of the island deaths if the Island is a source of Good "taking those who are ready." I’m thinking his conflict was whether he was right to “kill.” NOT murder, but kill. For awhile, his faith was tested and it seemed the issue was about his religious faith, but instead it was about his “righteousness.” He doubted himself, and felt maybe he had to atone for his killings - but feeling guilty for his killings was actually a LOSS of faith. Once he regained his convictions, and knew in his heart he was right to kill those he had killed, he was redeemed? Except, NOT-Yemi was rather mean if he represented the Island Spirit leading Eko to the next plane of existence. Should epiphanies bring peace? Or was his refusal to confess what cost him his life? Then the epiphany=death paradigm doesn’t work. Most people have been viewing/portraying/posting about the Island as if it were a source of Good. So far, this episode makes me wonder if the Island/the Black Smoke is evil and is killing GOOD people so that they don’t “infect” the Others with goodness. The line from the 23rd Psalm again: Yeah tho I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil. If the Island is to be feared, it is evil? Once again, I have more questions than answers. Lola I agree your pronoun question is important. What, exactly, did Eko say to Locke? “YOU’RE next.” Meaning Eko was telling Locke the individual he was next, and Locke took it to mean “you” plural and so repeated “we”? Hmmmm Or was it intended to be plural by Eko. OK, I think I'm getting the hang of this: Jossverse: Don't have a good relationship. Lostverse: Don't have an epiphany. Simpsonverse: Don't have a cow. LOLOL So, Juliet is asked by Benry to set Jack up, and does the video, but uses the movie title “TKAM” as her hint that jack shouldn’t believe ether her words OR the video words. Got it. I do think the movie TKAM wasn’t chosen randomly. Interesting. So, if stealing to survive isn't a sin, why is doing murder to survive considered one? (rhetorical question) Exactly. It isn’t considered a sin. The word for kill and murder are sometimes incorrectly used interchangeably. Plus, there’s the whole issue of the difference between the Letter of the Law and the Spirit of the Law. Hence all the theological arguments. Thanks to all of your insightful posts, (especially Rob's this week) I enjoy the episode far more after reading the thread and rewatching. Just a drive-by -- Sue encouraged me to stop by the boards again, so I did.
The two quotes in red by Lola and KM reminded me of something -- I don't know where my copy of TKAM is, so I can't check (I'm sure someone will!), but the idea of "sin" made me remember -- the chapter in the book where Jem is learning to shoot a gun, and which culminates with Atticus shooting the rabid dog -- and which gives the book its title -- Jem and Miss Maudie have a discussion about Atticus' instruction to Jem that he could (I'm paraphrasing) shoot all of some type of bird that he wanted, but "it's a sin to kill a mockingbird."
Miss Maudie tells Jem that (again, paraphrasing) mockingbirds don't do anything but sing and do good for people, and that's why killing them is "a sin." Much later, at the end of the book, Sheriff Heck Tate tells Atticus that he was "not thinking of Jem" when he announces that Bob Ewell's death was accidental, and Scout tells Atticus that she would never disclose Boo Radley's involvement in saving their lives, because it would sort of "be like shooting a mockingbird." So, as I recall, the primary effort is to protect Boo, the (relatively) simple-minded, social outcast, who's been hidden from all human contact until he comes out to save his friends.
Now, I grant you, I have an easier time relating this to Eko than I do to Benry -- but I don't quite know how it all fits together. But I agree with the rest of you that the choice of TKAM has a stronger significance than we've been able to figure out so far.
Regards to all.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 8, 2006 0:09:19 GMT -5
Eetahing Matthew and KMInfinity and everyone else who is saying that the choice of To Kill a Mockingbird is not just causual. But I can't decide if it's because both Juliet and Benry are just trying to mess with him and see what he does, or if Juliet is using it to tell Jack "be like Atticus Finch, stick with your convictions".All of which is pointless in my mind. Jack would never botch a surgery on purpose. I know this. And that fact that they don't? Means the Others are not as "all knowing" as they think. IMHO. Now. Watch me be completely wrong about it all. ;D I agree the issue of Benry getting an operation is a red herring. I too have a feeling the point of all this with Jack at least is to see if they can “break” Jack by eliminating his altruism. I agree with Rich that the plan is to compromise Jack by targeting his medical ethics. Perhaps to “teach” Jack and the Losties that survival comes before morality? That survival is the basis of morality? Sure seems to resonate with Eko’s tale. I think Eko’s death fits the paradigm of the island deaths if the Island is a source of Good "taking those who are ready." I’m thinking his conflict was whether he was right to “kill.” NOT murder, but kill. For awhile, his faith was tested and it seemed the issue was about his religious faith, but instead it was about his “righteousness.” He doubted himself, and felt maybe he had to atone for his killings - but feeling guilty for his killings was actually a LOSS of faith. Once he regained his convictions, and knew in his heart he was right to kill those he had killed, he was redeemed? Except, NOT-Yemi was rather mean if he represented the Island Spirit leading Eko to the next plane of existence. Should epiphanies bring peace? Or was his refusal to confess what cost him his life? Then the epiphany=death paradigm doesn’t work. Most people have been viewing/portraying/posting about the Island as if it were a source of Good. So far, this episode makes me wonder if the Island/the Black Smoke is evil and is killing GOOD people so that they don’t “infect” the Others with goodness. The line from the 23rd Psalm again: Yeah tho I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil. If the Island is to be feared, it is evil? Once again, I have more questions than answers. Lola I agree your pronoun question is important. What, exactly, did Eko say to Locke? “YOU’RE next.” Meaning Eko was telling Locke the individual he was next, and Locke took it to mean “you” plural and so repeated “we”? Hmmmm Or was it intended to be plural by Eko. LOLOL So, Juliet is asked by Benry to set Jack up, and does the video, but uses the movie title “TKAM” as her hint that jack shouldn’t believe ether her words OR the video words. Got it. I do think the movie TKAM wasn’t chosen randomly. Exactly. It isn’t considered a sin. The word for kill and murder are sometimes incorrectly used interchangeably. Plus, there’s the whole issue of the difference between the Letter of the Law and the Spirit of the Law. Hence all the theological arguments. Thanks to all of your insightful posts, (especially Rob's this week) I enjoy the episode far more after reading the thread and rewatching. Just a drive-by -- Sue encouraged me to stop by the boards again, so I did.
The two quotes in red by Lola and KM reminded me of something -- I don't know where my copy of TKAM is, so I can't check (I'm sure someone will!), but the idea of "sin" made me remember -- the chapter in the book where Jem is learning to shoot a gun, and which culminates with Atticus shooting the rabid dog -- and which gives the book its title -- Jem and Miss Maudie have a discussion about Atticus' instruction to Jem that he could (I'm paraphrasing) shoot all of some type of bird that he wanted, but "it's a sin to kill a mockingbird."
Miss Maudie tells Jem that (again, paraphrasing) mockingbirds don't do anything but sing and do good for people, and that's why killing them is "a sin." Much later, at the end of the book, Sheriff Heck Tate tells Atticus that he was "not thinking of Jem" when he announces that Bob Ewell's death was accidental, and Scout tells Atticus that she would never disclose Boo Radley's involvement in saving their lives, because it would sort of "be like shooting a mockingbird." So, as I recall, the primary effort is to protect Boo, the (relatively) simple-minded, social outcast, who's been hidden from all human contact until he comes out to save his friends.
Now, I grant you, I have an easier time relating this to Eko than I do to Benry -- but I don't quite know how it all fits together. But I agree with the rest of you that the choice of TKAM has a stronger significance than we've been able to figure out so far.
Regards to all.
#wavey# Hi Guest-who-forgot-my-password! #wavey# I agree with your thoughts here - and like you can't figure it out any farther at this time.
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