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Post by William the Bloody on Jan 5, 2005 10:29:31 GMT -5
Agreed somewhat. Can't help thinking that Keith would be disappointed in her detecting activities. I can see her point about the truth being the truth and kids deserving to know if their parents are being hypocritical. (Her defense being that she didn't cause the parents' behavior--she's just revealing it.) But Veronica is also being hypocritical because she chose not to know the truth when she had the chance. And, sorry, but I have no sympathy for the parents. Personally I think they should own up to the fact that they made bad decisions or got into some trouble as kids. Just that fact does not make it all right for their own kids, nor does it undermine them from saying, "yeah, this was a dumb stunt and now that I'm older and wiser I'm trying to protect you from the same pain and consequences." I think we need to also look at it from the angle of Veronica. She has been lied to by her father and her mother. She has no reason whatsoever (aside from the general goodness of her father) to trust parents with being good or right. She has devoted her own life to finding out "the truth" about her own circumstances. Why shouldn't she feel that every other kid have the same advantage? This isn't a moral ambiguity to me, it's a case of survival in a world where children are second class citizens. Powerless to the whims of "the people in charge", lacking the same rights as adults, and impoverished and dependant, therefore unable to seek ammends. I am not necessarily saying this is "so," but I am looking at it from a teenager's viewpoint. Think about Veronica's own circumstance. Think of Logan's abusive father. Think of Duncan's mom forcing the anti-depression drugs on him. Wallace himself aknowledges the lack of rights in this episode when he says soemthing to the effect "you haven't lived in a black woman's house!" implying the strict code he has to survive. Factor in the school policies, the random drug searches that are used against Veronica. The recent case that Veronica solved involving "the girl next door," where the girl in question was being assaulted by her own parents and simply wanted to get away. Or perhaps the kooky cult in "Drinking the Kool-Aid," that in reality wasn't so kooky and was a damn sight better than the real family life it sought to replace for many. Nope, I am not worried about Veronica's lack of morals. She is trying to get to the truth, and, far from trying to intentionally harm anyone along the way, is trying to "help." Vlad
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 5, 2005 11:56:44 GMT -5
So anyone think that the title is more than just a word play riff on the movie to highlight the serial killer theme? Like, is Sheriff Lamb keeping silent about something to do with Lily's murder? Not just incompetent, but complicit? Lola Ah-ha! I have answered this question - well, I've supplied my opinion, which is not really the same thing - but I just sent in my review, and it addresses this very thing! Of course, I'm going to make you wait and read it there.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 5, 2005 12:05:46 GMT -5
I think we need to also look at it from the angle of Veronica. She has been lied to by her father and her mother. I don't think we know this for sure. Mom is definitely hiding something . . . dad MIGHT be. But if you mean she's been lied to about her parentage, I don't think that is established. But the "general goodness of her father" is a lot. I wasn't too wigged by the digging up dirt. Veronica though, does have some issues. The vengeance thing will not serve her well, ultimately. I'm not worried about Veronica's lack of morals either. I agree with all you say here - she's not approaching things in completely adult, mature, wise ways. But she's a teenager, so - forgiveable. And I do think she has the foundation that she needs to learn from the mistakes she's making (though she is definitely making them.)
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Post by Pixi on Jan 5, 2005 12:22:32 GMT -5
Ah-ha! I have answered this question - well, I've supplied my opinion, which is not really the same thing - but I just sent in my review, and it addresses this very thing! Of course, I'm going to make you wait and read it there. Sneaky - very sneaky. One thing I especially enjoy when watching television episodes is creative titles. They just add so much more to an episode to me (that's probably weird). And I especially enjoyed this title. I think its more than a word play myself - simply because this is one creative writing staff!
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Post by Karen on Jan 5, 2005 12:22:57 GMT -5
What I did get to watch last night was very good. Missed the Weevil bits, tho. I did wonder if the blonde girl who was switched at birth felt subconsciously threatened by the 'real' daughter - and if that is a clue in itself somehow.
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Post by Lola m on Jan 5, 2005 13:09:54 GMT -5
I think we need to also look at it from the angle of Veronica. She has been lied to by her father and her mother. She has no reason whatsoever (aside from the general goodness of her father) to trust parents with being good or right. She has devoted her own life to finding out "the truth" about her own circumstances. Why shouldn't she feel that every other kid have the same advantage? This isn't a moral ambiguity to me, it's a case of survival in a world where children are second class citizens. Powerless to the whims of "the people in charge", lacking the same rights as adults, and impoverished and dependant, therefore unable to seek ammends. I am not necessarily saying this is "so," but I am looking at it from a teenager's viewpoint. Think about Veronica's own circumstance. Think of Logan's abusive father. Think of Duncan's mom forcing the anti-depression drugs on him. Wallace himself aknowledges the lack of rights in this episode when he says soemthing to the effect "you haven't lived in a black woman's house!" implying the strict code he has to survive. Factor in the school policies, the random drug searches that are used against Veronica. The recent case that Veronica solved involving "the girl next door," where the girl in question was being assaulted by her own parents and simply wanted to get away. Or perhaps the kooky cult in "Drinking the Kool-Aid," that in reality wasn't so kooky and was a damn sight better than the real family life it sought to replace for many. Nope, I am not worried about Veronica's lack of morals. She is trying to get to the truth, and, far from trying to intentionally harm anyone along the way, is trying to "help." Vlad Very good examples of peeking into the heads of some of the teens here. Veronica is definitely searching for the truth and even has a pretty good handle on the difficulty of giving that truth to people who asked for it, are paying you to discover it, and yet may not be ready for the full extent of it. She has been a good observer of Keith. I'm not worried about V's morals or ethics. I am concerned about the hard shell of cynicism and defensivness. While being realistic about life is generally a good thing, IMHO, you can easily move from a realistic viewpoint to one that is incapable of seeing the good in life or other people. I don't think Veronica is there yet, she is obviously able to make friends, has a good relationship with her dad, etc. But I can see it as a direction she leans toward and could get trapped in, especially as she continues to encounter the not-so-goodness in people that is a natural consequence of doing any type of investigative work. It is so easy when you have a job that involves solving bad stuff to think that everything is bad. You need to constantly remind yourself that you see all the bad because that's what people bring to you. If everything was fine, they wouldn't be your client. Lola
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Post by Lola m on Jan 5, 2005 13:11:40 GMT -5
Ah-ha! I have answered this question - well, I've supplied my opinion, which is not really the same thing - but I just sent in my review, and it addresses this very thing! Of course, I'm going to make you wait and read it there. As if we needed proof that you are eeeeevaaaahhhhllll! ;D ;D
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Post by Matthew on Jan 6, 2005 10:53:02 GMT -5
All about hidden and changed identities... and about who one is down at the heart of it.
Huh
Damn' fine episode.. I liked the fact that Mac seems to be adjusted fairly well to the fact that she is a changeling... though her birth mother knew bloody well who she was the second she opened the door to her.
Even if her parents drive her nuts, they still loved her and raised her...
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Post by Lola m on Jan 6, 2005 17:49:02 GMT -5
Very nice review, Spring! I liked your title "Lemme Out of Here" and your mention of a couple lines that really struck me with their similarity (Mac's "Just one more year until I can leave home", Keith's "It never quite fit" and the Worm's "Can I go home now?"). I basically just thought to myself, "something seems kinda same-y here", but you went and found the whole theme. Being boxed in, trapped, stuck. Locked into a role that doesn't fit, looking at what doesn't fit, what doesn't belong. Which is a perfect theme for 1) a mystery show and 2) a show featuring teenagers (who are always testing their limits and boundaries, who are often trying or failing to fit into a role created for them by peers or their parents or teachers or whoever). Loved all the little examples you found that I missed. Like the name the newspapers have given the killer which isn't really right, doesn't "fit", or the fact that the Worm doesn't really work for the "Gone Wild/Bad" video makers. Nice analogies noted all throughout this review. The truth setting you free and Keith letting the girl out of a, you guessed it, box. Mac cutting through the distortion to find the truth of the identity of the tip line caller. I love that we are given lots of hints about the clue that tips Keith off to the identity of the killer. As you point out, all the references to noise and sound and insulation and so on lead us to the idea of cutting through this to find the truth, just as it leads Keith to thinking about why no one heard the women while they were being held. Clever, clever, clever. ;D It was fun to read the bit you had hinted at earlier - the possible significance of Don Lamb's name. It's definitely a puzzle. Silence of the Lamb. He's definitely not very silent here or in any of the previous episodes. More prone to bluster and jump in, jump on top of other folks who are talking and potentially stealing his spotlight, like Keith does in the briefing. So was the title just a joke? Like you, I don't really see him as an active conspirator in Lily's murder. I'm not even sure I see him as someone in the know but hiding stuff, perhaps with money exchanged so this Lamb will stay silent. (He seems too blabby and likely to boast, I wouldn't trust him to keep his mouth shut.) But then you threw out the idea of a sacrificial Lamb and I was very intrigued. Very interesting possibility there. Thanks for your thoughts and hard work on this, Spring! I'm impressed, as always. Lola
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 6, 2005 19:35:03 GMT -5
Very nice review, Spring! I liked your title "Lemme Out of Here" and your mention of a couple lines that really struck me with their similarity (Mac's "Just one more year until I can leave home", Keith's "It never quite fit" and the Worm's "Can I go home now?"). I basically just thought to myself, "something seems kinda same-y here", but you went and found the whole theme. Being boxed in, trapped, stuck. Locked into a role that doesn't fit, looking at what doesn't fit, what doesn't belong. Which is a perfect theme for 1) a mystery show and 2) a show featuring teenagers (who are always testing their limits and boundaries, who are often trying or failing to fit into a role created for them by peers or their parents or teachers or whoever). Loved all the little examples you found that I missed. Like the name the newspapers have given the killer which isn't really right, doesn't "fit", or the fact that the Worm doesn't really work for the "Gone Wild/Bad" video makers. Nice analogies noted all throughout this review. The truth setting you free and Keith letting the girl out of a, you guessed it, box. Mac cutting through the distortion to find the truth of the identity of the tip line caller. I love that we are given lots of hints about the clue that tips Keith off to the identity of the killer. As you point out, all the references to noise and sound and insulation and so on lead us to the idea of cutting through this to find the truth, just as it leads Keith to thinking about why no one heard the women while they were being held. Clever, clever, clever. ;D Yes. The whole ep was very nicely woven together. I agree - Lamb doesn't seem like someone that Jake or Celeste Kane - or whomever - would TELL anything to. They would just use him and his blind spots and vulnerabilities - of which he has many more than Keith. He strikes me as easily manipulated, as opposed to easily bought. He really didn't seem . . . unethical to me. You're very welcome - and thanks so much for the feedback. It is much appreciated.
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Post by Rob on Jan 6, 2005 21:02:34 GMT -5
All about hidden and changed identities... and about who one is down at the heart of it. Huh Damn' fine episode.. I liked the fact that Mac seems to be adjusted fairly well to the fact that she is a changeling... though her birth mother knew bloody well who she was the second she opened the door to her. Even if her parents drive her nuts, they still loved her and raised her... I liked the episode very much also, mainly because it made me think. So much of the show seems to be addressing how children who are different from their parents don't "belong" somehow. Mac made some rather disparaging remarks about her parents' likes and dislikes...but that wouldn't automatically mean they weren't her birth mother and father. In some ways I am very different from mine...but that doesn't make me adopted or switched. Plus, I'm mildly uncomfortable about the whole idea of a child turning out to be whatever their genetic code prescribes. The show seemed to be talking out of both sides of its mouth in that way...Mac turned out to be a highly intelligent "rich parents" type of child, feeling disconnected to her adoptive ones. Madison, on the other hand, seemed quite comfortable in her debutante role. Perhaps that's because she's too vacuous to grasp who she really is? Can't say I buy that either. I'll say this: for me, Madison's is the more realistic depiction, because environmental factors in childhood weigh far more heavily than genetic ones in my opinion. Plus, you can be very intelligent and enjoy NASCAR and camping. So...the premise was a bit too simplistic for me. Which leads to Koontz's "revelation" regarding Veronica (which was the real point of this ep, I think). He asked her to look in the mirror (or words to that effect), basically insinuating that she clearly doesn't belong in Keith's social group. Really? Seems to me Keith and Veronica share tons of similar characteristics...and it's not like the man is a homeless loser whose family tree doesn't fork. Was this episode supposed to reject Koontz's view or support it? That's where I'm confused.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 6, 2005 21:26:29 GMT -5
I liked the episode very much also, mainly because it made me think. So much of the show seems to be addressing how children who are different from their parents don't "belong" somehow. Mac made some rather disparaging remarks about her parents' likes and dislikes...but that wouldn't automatically mean they weren't her birth mother and father. In some ways I am very different from mine...but that doesn't make me adopted or switched. To me, the show seems to be suggesting that it's both: It's nature, it's nurture. Oh- I didn't think that at all. I mean, I thought both girls felt a certain "out-of-placeness" and that Madison's haughty way, especially with her younger sister, suggested that. Why is Madison such a snot? Her mom and sister don't seem to be. I think the suggestion is that underlying discomfort is at the root of her behavior - that the over-the-top snootiness is overcompensation. Well - like I said, I think it's both, and it's really hard to pick out which is more important/influential. My thoughts: The . . . snootiness implied in Koontz's view - "can't you see you're so much better than him" is soundly rejected by the show, in many ways . . . the underlying connection and trust between Logan and Weevil, for example. The idea that genetics play a strong part in determining who you are is not rejected by the show (or by me.) Though I don't believe the show is saying genetics absolutely determine who you are. There are plenty of nods to the way the environment shapes a person as well. Whether or not Veronica is Keith's or not, the love and attention he has given her is shown as being a positive factor for her. Both Mac and Madison have characteristics that seem to be totally about their genetics (physical characteristics, and interests and proclivities) and totally related to their environment (attitudes toward wealth, values.) There's my two cents. My review is up if you want a whole dime's worth of my thoughts on the ep.
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Post by Nickim on Jan 22, 2005 20:19:35 GMT -5
I finally got around to watching "Silence of the Lamb," and I can't help but think how great Veronica Mars is when compared to the dreck that is Point Pleasant. It really makes me angry that VM is on UPN, a station I don't get, and PP(good abbreviation)is on Fox, a station that I do get.
I really thought that it was horrible for Veronica to invade the privacy of all of the parents. I think she should have told Mac's moms before she told Mac.
The title with the girl's held for 48 hours and then killed of course could refer to the famous movie, but it also refers to the first guy that Sheriff Lamb thought was the killer, he would have been the sacrificial lamb, and to Mac, she stayed silent even though you could tell she wanted to say much more to her "real mom,and to poor Deputy Leo. Veronica willingly sacrificed him up so she could get the Lilly Kane file. She really did get what she deserved, and I'm glad she realizes it.
Now, I have to read Spring's analysis.
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Post by Nickim on Jan 22, 2005 20:39:16 GMT -5
Another great analysis, Spring. I really liked what you said about us being in boxes, that some protect, but others can smother. Also how we have to ignore the distortions and distractions so we can see the truth for what it is.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 4, 2006 22:17:46 GMT -5
Danger of getting the wrong guy.
Importance of putting that scar behind us
Apparently you've never spent time in a black woman's house.
Good God. They hired a string quartet to play Birthday?
If they really loved her, they would have gotten the real beatles. Hee.
"Deputy" Lamb. Hee.
The Mayor
Now the "This Is Your God" poster is in a different place.
OK, this digging up dirt on parents is going to bite Veronica in the ass.
How can Keith resist strangling Lamb in this scene.
Only $50? Should have held out for more, Veronica.
One more year till I can leave home.
Switched at birth plot.
You've never seen Spinal Tap? That explains a lot. Hee.
So Lamb does have some good banter in him.
So it's just shortly after Christmas
So Mac is "Cindy"
Mac vs Madison
Body Shots
Leo is a Leo
What was Veronica looking for?
Flirting. Or a new contact.
The Worm
Mac-Veronica parallel
Madison is so terrified. Hee!
Date rape party parallel
Wandering into the library parallel
Ta-ta's?
Hee. Weevil as Veronica's accomplice,
Property Values
Pepto Bismol by the coffee maker?
Clarence Weidman made the call
Play to our strengths: Keith - good cop, Lamb- bad cop
Fun Time Motors
Madison's mom seems real decent for an 09er.
Does Mom know?
So everyone else in the sheriff's department is doing Lamb's job for him?
Yeah, it was the guy. I knew it.
Can't say I wasn't warned.
Yeah, the mom knows.
Nature vs Nuture
So would this blonde hair brunette distinction be so blatant?
Lots of musicians in this ep.
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