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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 12, 2005 11:40:41 GMT -5
Hi all! Miss you guys! I just got finished watching the re-run of the episode tonight. Thanks for all of the great posts! You guys have given me a lot to think about. Count me as one of those who *liked* this episode. A lot. I completely understand why people *didn't* like the episode, and I agree with a lot of points -- especially Deputy Leo's turn to the semi-dark side. (Honestly, why did he need to steal *all* of the copies if he was just going to sell it to the tabloids? Either that was sloppy writing or he's part of some larger plot.) But still, this episode got me emotionally. The reason, surprisingly enough was not Wallace's last second appearance (or not *just* that ;D). It was Kristen Bell's Veronica. She just got to me. This was such an emotionally bruising time for her -- Meg's pregnancy, Duncan's "doesn't affect us" distancing attitude (*thank you*, Erin, for the Duncan analysis! ), being caught in the middle of Neptune's class warfare, having no vacation, having no money, being stuck on jury duty. And all of that was just from the teaser. I believe that Kristen Bell is just as good as Jason Dohring in conveying the anger and pain going on underneath the surface snark. Except that Veronica is much, much better at concealing, compartmentalizing and chanelling than Logan. She's had so many pressures and disappointments of late, that by the time she heard the news about Meg's death, with the huge responsibility and guilt it put on her shoulders, she had me in tears right there along with her. Wallace's surprise appearance had me in tears, too. But happy tears. (Wallace! Yay!) Thank goodness for Wallace and Keith. A couple of other things that made me go "huh": RT and co. keep on flip-siding elements from the pilot episode. One of the things that sorta bugged me about the pilot was the blithe, casual evidence tampering Veronica did on Wallace's behalf. Here, Leo did something similar on behalf of his sister, but it's clearly *wrong*. And the consequences are more dire -- Aaron's possible acquittal, not to mention the fact that Veronica will now have to testify at his trial. Which means that Aaron's lawyers will try to tear her apart. Veronica has been distant & disengaged this season compared to last season. I'm sure she would have been Henry Fonda instead of Martin Balsam (Thanks Pixi!) if she had been on the jury last year. (But eetah! with Erin that it's a realistic reaction to the physical and emotional traumas she's had to endure.) Veronica doesn't let herself go emotionally with Duncan at all. She visibly swallowed all of her immense hurt and anger in the ep's opening scene. I suspect it's not only because they were interrupted, but also because she knows he wouldn't really deal with it unless she forced the return of batshit!Duncan. ;D (She has no such problem with Logan, however.) Logan can still love the people who betrayed him. And their betrayal still hurts. Poor woobie. Things that made me go "YAY!": Any Keith and Veronica scene "Presents, presents, presents!" Wallace!Wallace!Wallace! Linda, Wallace!Wallace!Wallace! P.S. Wallace! Yay! Good stuff Linda, thanks for sharing!
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Post by Pixi on Dec 12, 2005 11:45:13 GMT -5
Your post suggested you might be expecting comments about the movie in my analysis, so I was letting you know that I didn't do that. That was all my post was meant to convey. I get the idea that you took my post as a criticism somehow, of your analysis or approach, but believe me, saying "I didn't do it that way," isn't meant to be translated as "So that way isn't as good." The title of the ep practically invites the movie comparison, and you did a good job with it. Thank you and I certainly didn't mean to create that impression. I was just excited after I did the analysis and having fun with it. Perhaps the moral of the story is not to post early on Monday mornings.
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Post by Cal on Dec 12, 2005 13:25:23 GMT -5
Wallace!!!!! Wallace!Wallace!Wallace!Wallace!Wallace!Wallace! That is all. (For now.) Linda, mostly brain dead, but: Wallace!!!!! That was pretty much my reaction too, Linda.
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Post by Pixi on Dec 14, 2005 11:15:13 GMT -5
As always a very nice review. Just thought you might like to know - the awkward and uncomfortable phrase is a shoutout to Couch Baron who does the recaps on TWOP. Rob mentioned in his chat with Kristin that he was going to give TWOP a shoutout. Couch Baron used that phrase a lot last year.
I do think the song is an indication for Logan of being able to move on. It was a cathartic experience for him.
I still don't buy Veronica's reasons for not confronting Duncan. I found the situation implausible and unrealistic though I do see what you are reasoning from it. I dislike the way Veronica was portrayed in that scene (and I've found this past week that many, many people are very, very upset about Veronica's character). Whatever RT and company's long-term goals are for Veronica in her still clinging to "normal" visions - it is alienating a lot of viewers who miss kickass Veronica and were hoping the "angry" would finally explode this ep.
I found Logan, Logan's scenes with Keith and the appearnce of Wallace the only redeeming aspects of this episode.
But I do applaud you for another astute analysis.
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Post by LadyDi on Dec 14, 2005 11:58:48 GMT -5
Hey all,
Never was able to catch a rerun of this ep. (if they even played one locally). If anyone's willing to send me a taped copy, please IM me. Thanks.
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 14, 2005 12:14:30 GMT -5
As always a very nice review. Just thought you might like to know - the awkward and uncomfortable phrase is a shoutout to Couch Baron who does the recaps on TWOP. Rob mentioned in his chat with Kristin that he was going to give TWOP a shoutout. Couch Baron used that phrase a lot last year. I do think the song is an indication for Logan of being able to move on. It was a cathartic experience for him. I still don't buy Veronica's reasons for not confronting Duncan. I found the situation implausible and unrealistic though I do see what you are reasoning from it. I dislike the way Veronica was portrayed in that scene (and I've found this past week that many, many people are very, very upset about Veronica's character). Whatever RT and company's long-term goals are for Veronica in her still clinging to "normal" visions - it is alienating a lot of viewers who miss kickass Veronica and were hoping the "angry" would finally explode this ep. I found Logan, Logan's scenes with Keith and the appearnce of Wallace the only redeeming aspects of this episode. But I do applaud you for another astute analysis. Thanks for the feedback, Pixi. I appreciate the strokes very much. Veronica's decision to help Duncan see Meg made perfect sense to me and seemed completely in character. Veronica is a caring, decent person - and here is poor Meg, pregnant, in seriously bad health, just out of a coma . . . I would find it out-of-character if Veronica did anything other than put aside her feelings and help in any way she could. You gotta know when to kick-ass, and you gotta know when to show some compassion. That's what the ep is all about. Just because Veronica picks "show compassion" in that difficult situation doesn't mean "kick-ass" Veronica has left us. In fact, we see her in the episode, as she deals with the jury. Now, if this goes on and on - i.e., Veronica moves forward, ep after ep, like nothing's wrong and everything's hunky-dory between her and Duncan (she keeps talking about her perfect, honest boyfriend Duncan), then I would join the cry of "foul!" But right now, I have no reason to believe that's what is going to happen. In fact, we've had indication that it's not going to happen: Veronica has already told Duncan she doesn't buy the "this has nothing to do with us" reasoning from him, and that episode title: One Angry Veronica. Something's gonna give, something's going to explode, between them. It makes perfect sense to me that it didn't happen this ep, and I have a lot of faith that when it does happen, the timing will be perfect.
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Post by Pixi on Dec 15, 2005 12:22:26 GMT -5
Another thought about the trial in OAV and how it intertwines/relates to the Felix murder mystery arc. In the trial - Veronica relies on videotaped evidence to convice the 09ers.
Two cases involving videotaped evidence.
So in Aaron's case - the videotape evidence is now gone. Does that mean that Aaron will not be convicted? That he will be set free now that there is no videotape?
I know there's still the whole assult on Keith, trying to murder Veronica, etc. But I think the odds of convicting Aaron of killing Lilly are so small as to be infintisimal. The only actual evidence is Veronica's testimony of what he said. There is no physical evidence - no fingerprints, no DNA. Couple that with the ease with which celebrity criminals usually walk and I would say that Aaron has very little to worry about.
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 15, 2005 19:53:04 GMT -5
Another thought about the trial in OAV and how it intertwines/relates to the Felix murder mystery arc. In the trial - Veronica relies on videotaped evidence to convice the 09ers. Two cases involving videotaped evidence. So in Aaron's case - the videotape evidence is now gone. Does that mean that Aaron will not be convicted? That he will be set free now that there is no videotape? I know there's still the whole assult on Keith, trying to murder Veronica, etc. But I think the odds of convicting Aaron of killing Lilly are so small as to be infintisimal. The only actual evidence is Veronica's testimony of what he said. There is no physical evidence - no fingerprints, no DNA. Couple that with the ease with which celebrity criminals usually walk and I would say that Aaron has very little to worry about. Agree. Did you notice how Keith, when he was typing up his report at the end, mentioned that he thought Logan had obtained the tapes, but there was no real evidence, so threre was little chance of conviction? I wondered if that wasn't meant to be a bit of foreshadowing about the Aaron trial. Definitely, it would be very believable for Aaron to beat the rap. No real evidence, just Aaron's word against Veronica's and Keith's about what happened that night he tried to kill Veronica - and a credible alternative explanation for who killed Lilly, with Aaron's "I left her alive, maybe her brother did it, everybody knows he has fits of rage" story. Yep - I think you've hit the nail on the head. We've seen celebs in real life get off with much harder evidence than what Aaron faces.
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Post by Onjel on Dec 16, 2005 9:14:53 GMT -5
As you'll see in my review, I liked the episode. I thought the jury thing was well done, and it was a wonderful "holiday season" episode. Nothing seemed off to me, especially when it came to the character's behavior and decisions. Well - lemme know what you think when the review goes up. Loved all your discussions! I loved your review! Very nicely done with the balancing of when to show compassion or mercy and when to bring the hammer down. I think we saw it played out well with each situation as you described. I loved the way Veronica became old Veronica in the jury room, especially the way she handled Mr. Alpha. I agree with you that we are going to see a return of strong V and that something is going to explode with her and Duncan and the baby situation. I expect that she will have to be very strong to take care of the baby and fight Meg's parents in the process and any confrontation with Duncan might have to wait until that situation is resolved, but dealing with it could prove the catalyst for V to let her unexpressed anger come out. Wonderful review as always, Springster! #claps#
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Post by Lola m on Dec 16, 2005 16:07:40 GMT -5
Most excellent analysis, Spring!!
I love how your themes of judgement, mercy, and justice fit so well with the episode. The examples of subjective mercy - doing the awkward and uncomfortable because, how can they say no? But I particularly love how it ties together the beginning and the ending of the ep - the final shot of Wallace and Veronica, giving that New Year thing one last chance.
I always love the links you find and the connections you point out. Veronica says "no poignant messages of universal love and hope" but the episode itself proves her wrong. Keith says "this old beast has a new heart pulsing inside her", and so does Meg. Logan loved Lilly; Leo loves his sister Tina; Leo helps Logan, who "relies on the kindness of strangers"; neither one was acting out of greed, despite what everyone assumed when the tape vanished.
Lots of eetahs and agreement with your guesses on what we will see in the New Year. But particularly:
Tension and conflict between the classes and races and income levels has always been a factor in this show, but the way it is being highlighted this season. Last season's "case of the week" often had themes that later turned out to hint at solving Lilly's murder. I have every reason to believe that this season will prove the same.
Very thoughtful analysis, Spring, as usual. Brava!
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 16, 2005 17:43:34 GMT -5
As you'll see in my review, I liked the episode. I thought the jury thing was well done, and it was a wonderful "holiday season" episode. Nothing seemed off to me, especially when it came to the character's behavior and decisions. Well - lemme know what you think when the review goes up. Loved all your discussions! I loved your review! Very nicely done with the balancing of when to show compassion or mercy and when to bring the hammer down. I think we saw it played out well with each situation as you described. I loved the way Veronica became old Veronica in the jury room, especially the way she handled Mr. Alpha. I agree with you that we are going to see a return of strong V and that something is going to explode with her and Duncan and the baby situation. I expect that she will have to be very strong to take care of the baby and fight Meg's parents in the process and any confrontation with Duncan might have to wait until that situation is resolved, but dealing with it could prove the catalyst for V to let her unexpressed anger come out. Thanks, Onjel. yes, good speculation - I agree that's a likely scenario - Veronica will focus on trying to honor her promise to Meg, which will mean further swallowing some of her anger. I wonder if she will continue to sleep with Duncan, now, or whether she put the brakes on the sexual relationship. Thanks for the feedback, Onjel.
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 16, 2005 17:57:02 GMT -5
Most excellent analysis, Spring!! Thanks, Lola. There's a lot to think about with the mysteries and right now, it's pretty hard to put the clues together. It seemed to me that just about every incident and dialogue in the episode was about extending forgiveness (compassion, giving someone another chance) or exacting justice, and the difficulties and challenges in deciding when to do what. No matter what decision a person makes in cases like those, there is going to be someone telling you that you shoulda been tougher, and someone else telling you that you shoulda been gentler. But in the end, you have to weigh the situation, and make a decision that you yourself can live with.
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Post by KMInfinity on Dec 17, 2005 11:36:18 GMT -5
Excellent review Spring. I loved the focus on the tension between mercy and justice.
I do wonder about something. It seems the assumption is made that the baby is Duncan's. How certain is that? I re-watched the episode and one thing I noticed was how it seemed that the writers when out of their way to leave that unconfirmed, subtly. Maybe Duncan thinks th baby is his, and maybe Meg even believed it (or wanted to)...but I'm a little worried about this because the obvious thing to resolve the situation would be for Duncan to step up to the plate and assert his Kane power and his parental rights and the issue is resolved. ANd that seems too simple for RT and Co.
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 17, 2005 12:32:08 GMT -5
Excellent review Spring. I loved the focus on the tension between mercy and justice. Thanks, KM. I appreciate you taking the time to let me know you enjoyed the review. I can give you my take on this, though it comes with no guarantees of accuracy: My feeling was that Duncan was definitely the father. Meg does not at all strike me as a "casual sex" type, plus we see how unusually upset she is, about Veronica & Duncan, very early on (because, as she says, she already knows she's pregnant. Also, in the state she is in, and knowing, as she does, that her health is precarious - I just can't imagine her lying about this. So personally, I feel 100% sure it is Duncan's baby. Yes, it would seem like a simple solution for Duncan, with the Kane power behind him, to step in an assert his parental rights. Even with his medical history of "rages" that the Mannings could use against him, I would think the Kanes could prevail. But I see two problems there, which make it far from simple: 1) I don't think Duncan is inclined to do this. He asked Meg what they should do, and made no reassuring comments to Meg about how he was planning to take any responsibility whatsoever. 2) Even if he is inclined to do this, I'm not at all sure that Jake and Celeste would give him support for it. They have big ambitions for Duncan; I don't think they'd advise him to do anything other than let the Mannings handle it. I think they would encourage him to wash his hands of the whole thing, and set his sights on college and a high-power career in politics or business, etc. And I don't think Duncan has the strength to stand up to his parents, as we've seen before (note how he hadn't even told his Mom he was dating Veronica).
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Post by Michelle on Dec 19, 2005 22:25:18 GMT -5
Spring, I really enjoyed this review. I appreciate all the effort you and Sue put into these!
The past few episodes have had Logan and Weevil exacting “justice” onto each another, and then finally coming to a kind of agreement to work together. And as you so astutely pointed out, this episode explored a similar theme. I didn’t realize until I read your review how consistently (persistently?) this season has returned to that theme. I personally think when it comes down to it, Weevil has shown more mercy toward Logan than vice versa, at least this season. But that isn’t the focus of this episode, so I’ll leave it at that. I really, really loved how you summarized these in bullet points. Compassion for others can be difficult, especially when the other person has hurt us. But just as Veronica agrees to give the New Year a chance, so must she (and we) give people yet another chance. And, the part of me that wants Veronica to give Logan another chance is starting to get a little more optimistic!
Awww. I never saw the connection between Leo and Logan before like that!
Yay, Wallace! Wallace gives Veronica another change, Keith gives Logan another chance. It won’t be long before they’ll all be one big happy family. OK, that might be a bit too optimistic!
You’re making me cry, Spring.
I agree 100% with these comments on the various scenes and the stellar acting in this episode. Happy New Year, Spring.
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