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Post by Lola m on Dec 8, 2005 18:04:45 GMT -5
Well I agree with those saying 12 Angry Men has been done many times but using the phrase One Angry Veronica does beg the rip off question more intensely I think. Also excellent points Sharky. I think the title is very intentional. Look at the make up of that jury and compare it to the characters in Twelve Angry Men. It's supposed to be very close... I don't have issues with that but I do agree that it wasn't handled well. If the entire episode had focused on the jury, it probably could have been done much better. Instead, we got a half-assed version of what it could have been. I dislike that evidence and pressures from outside where a factor in the decision making. The sports thing could have been something the sports guy remembered instead of Mac leaving the articles for V. The knowledge that the PCHers would think she's siding with the 09ers again could have been something Veronica realized internally rather than having Thumper show up at her job (which I see has been a convenient thing that comes and goes as the writers need V to be in a public place - is The Java Hut the new beach?). Veronica's quick judgement on the case in the first place didn't feel right. The Veronica we met last season? She would never have accepted that story on the surface. I'm guessing we're supposed to see how the events over the summer with Logan have changed her viewpoint a bit. She's no longer so quick to think that the 09ers in a case are lying. I get that she didn't want to be there anymore than the others did but that's no reason to not to take the job of being on a jury seriously. Anyway. I kinda lost my point. I wanted to agree with Pixi that I didn't like the jury thing but mostly because it wasn't handled all that well not because of the 'rip-off' factor. I knew the minute she got the jury summons that it was going to mirror Twelve Angry Men. The title of the episode gave that away but the makeup of that jury clinched it. **nods** It did have a shoe-horned, rushed kind of feel, didn't it? I keep wondering if Veronica's initial rush to the "wrong" jury vote was supposed to mimic how often she jumps to the wrong conclusion and thus warn us that this has or will happen with the larger mystery this year.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Dec 8, 2005 18:51:50 GMT -5
My mother, the wise, observy one, thinks that Veronica being selected to be on the jury and then been chosen as foreman smells of a set up. Maybe connecting back to the VP's machinations in My Mother, The Fiend.
Upon rewatching the episode, I really like the way the two plotlines were cut together and how well the passage of time was conveyed.
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Post by zimshan on Dec 8, 2005 20:05:40 GMT -5
So negativity is supposively all over for this ep, but I've got finals in a couple days and we have this ep to dwell on for five weeks so I'm trying to only focus on the good. Because if I start my ranting and raving now it'll be like that for five weeks and no one wants that. So a quick positive and annoyingly redundent response for now. Later on I'll do a full initial thoughts post but I need my finales study time right now and I need to keep that happy. Hence the flailiness that follows... --------------------------------- Those damn writers! The Duncan and Meg stuff is still left hanging. I wanted to hate them. I really, really did. BUT THEY GAVE ME WALLACE BACK!! THAT'S THE MOST FABULOUS CHRISTMAS PRESENT EVER!! And then couple that with a fantabulous Logan scene that I've been waiting ALL SEASON to see, and BEST DAMN CHRISTMAS EVER! I couldn't help but feel incredibly happy at the end. For a five week hiatus? Yes, that's the way to end it. I'll probably dissect it to death in about a week but for now, I just want to bask... BECAUSE WALLACE! WALLACE AND VERONICA! BFFOTP FOREVER! OHMYGOD. THE CUTENESS! Ah, I can't be mad at them now! They gave me Wallace back for Christmas. I was almost at the point of tears I missed this boy so much. Acutally, who am I kidding? My favoritest BFFs in the world are reunited. Of course there were tears. Oh WALLACE, I LOVE YOU! That Logan scene? Is something I've wanted for months. No I kid you not. MONTHS!! MONTHS!! I TELL YA! SO I FEEL SOOOOOOOO SOOOOO SOOOO HAPPY FOR GETTING IT! SO FRIGGIN' MUCH THAT I’M COMPLETELY IGNORANT TO EVERYTHING ELSE THAT HAPPENED IN THIS EPISODE. Relax. It's okay. I've got time. Five weeks to dissect it to pieces and rant and rave about all the bad parts. FIVE WEEKS! So I've got time to bask… SO STOP RUINING MY FUN PEOPLE. Okay? Let me start thinking about this kind of stuff in two weeks. Right now, I have time employ some Veronica denial tactics and just bask, and so I'm going to do just that. I'll be all ready to murder RT & Co. by the time January rolls around, don't worry... ETA: For those of you crazy normal people that don't take advantage of the technology and watch television with Closed Caption on and therefore miss soo much, I can tell you right now. "Edge of the Ocean" by Ivy, used during the fantabulous Logan scene? Was actually originally suppose to be "Kill The Roses" by Something Happens. I've gotta say, although the song made for a lovely scene, I'm quite distraught by this. First of all, now I'm all conflicted because I now identify one song with two very different scenes. Second of all, because "Kill the Roses" is my favorite Something Happens song EVER. And although I have no real clue whether it would have worked with the scene, I'm still sad that it didn't get used 'cause I want that on my soundtrack. But good news is Rob will probably use it elsewhere so one day it will show up. ETA2: They really REALLY need to put JD in dark colors more often because GAH! That black sweater? GAH! With the lighter blue jeans? GAH! And pulling his sleeves over his hands like that? OHMYGOD. He needs to do that in ever episode because I friggin' love that! And just *stares at screen*, *sighs* I swear, I never used to be this shallow... ETA3: Oh, and I forgot. Logan's "love of my life" comment? I can pinpoint that as the line that specifically killed me. And I don't care what anyone says, that's what he's believed for the whole series. Hot Dogs he says, "I love Lilly, and Lilly loved guys." Present tense people. And he's always referred to Lilly as his girlfriend. The premiere, "My girlfriend is dead." And then in 2x06, he says to Aaron, "plowed my girlfriend" and later refers to Veronica as "another girlfriend of mine." He still hasn't really moved one from Lilly in his mind and I kind of love that. And now I really want Lilly flashbacks in Logan's mind. Please, Rob? ETA4: And a note about Veronica. I almost went the whole episode without catching this but then she grabbed the cleaning fluid near the end and all of a sudden I realized it. All the crazy cooking and extreme decorating? That wasn't overly festive Veronica all of a sudden. No, that was how Veronica was dealing with all of this Meg and Duncan stuff. A la A Trip To The Dentist? Therapeutic cleaning? Yup, that's Veronica all the way. ETA5: I know, I'm procrastinating. So now I'm watching the Lg tape scene and trying to pinpoint exactly where Kill the Roses was supposed to be used and playing it overtop of the muted scene. And GAH! The whole entire scene was shot to go EXACTLY with this song. It's amazing how exact it is. The CC indicates that "There you go" which is the first real line of the song, comes up as we get to Logan's face. If you start the song at its first chord, (btwn 7 and 8 seconds) right as the scene begins with the tape, you can get exactly how it was supposed to be used. It has this awesome beginning that picks up right as the camera starts panning away from the tv over to the couch. Then when we reach Logan the first words start up exactly at that second. And then the best part, just as Logan flicks the lighter, it jumps perfectly into the chorus of "Kills The Roses". Just so perfect. And the lyrics work so well in just explaining Lilly and Logan's perception of her, especially when coupled with the "love of my life" comment. This must have been a really last minute change and I wonder why. It really would have gone quite lovely with the scene. A different lovely than "Edge of the Ocean" but still lovely. Yep I'm abit sad to see it wasn't used. Never heard "Kill the Roses" before? Here's your chance: s18.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1SVK46RHDM8QB076NEI07XIW45 Gorgeous song. Really interesting scene to watch with a totally different song... ------------------------------------------ Now, I read a couple of posts quickly last night, but I'm not going to be able to go through most of them and jump in on the discussion for at least two days. There's a great possiblity that I won't get to them until next week when I'm back home. No, it's not because I refuse to kill my joy but more because of finales. I must study like a madhatter if I want to get out of here by Tuesday. So yea. I watched ep. It made me happy. Now I'm gonna keep that happy all through studying and taking my finales. And no one can take that from me, okay? Okay… ;D ;D ;D
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Post by zimshan on Dec 8, 2005 20:10:10 GMT -5
My mother, the wise, observy one, thinks that Veronica being selected to be on the jury and then been chosen as foreman smells of a set up. Maybe connecting back to the VP's machinations in My Mother, The Fiend. Upon rewatching the episode, I really like the way the two plotlines were cut together and how well the passage of time was conveyed. I saw this post as I was posting and had to comment because yes. I definitely had thought it was fishy, how the guy specifically picked her out to foreman out of everyone. I was expecting it to turn out as a set up but I guess we still could find out about that at a later date.
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Post by Queen E on Dec 8, 2005 21:46:35 GMT -5
My mother, the wise, observy one, thinks that Veronica being selected to be on the jury and then been chosen as foreman smells of a set up. Maybe connecting back to the VP's machinations in My Mother, The Fiend. Upon rewatching the episode, I really like the way the two plotlines were cut together and how well the passage of time was conveyed. Didn't he say something about being a broker? Or a CEO of some kind? Maybe he's tied in with the Casablancas? And how come the sports writer didn't get dismissed for cause; wasn't he the one writing about the athlete/fauxpimp?
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Post by Queen E on Dec 8, 2005 22:02:12 GMT -5
You make a lot of valid points, even though I had no strong feelings one way or the other regarding the episode. Except for Wallace, 'cause that made me very very happy. As for Duncan and Veronica's reactions to Meg's pregnancy...I don't think what happened last night is the final word on their feelings. I think Veronica is still angry, but has put it on the shelf to deal with after things have settled down. I also think that without Wallace, she's sort of lost her compass, so to speak. Wallace definitely serves as the voice of reason, and is not afraid to call her on her bullshit. She has had no one to share all the "shots fired" at her over the past several weeks, and I think she's just spun. As for Duncan, he has never really had to take responsibility for anything, and is one of the most compartmentalized characters I've seen on television. Duncan is the prime example of the cosseted child of privilege. Lily's death? Trauma, followed by a blackout, followed by his parents doing a masterful job of cover-up and putting him on anti-depressants. Finds out he might be related to the woman he loves? Cuts her off completely, gets drugged, has sex with her, and runs. Obviously, a mark of someone who has problems dealing with reality. Then again, when and in what context would he have ever learned those coping skills? The car smashing scene in "A Trip to the Dentist" is a big red flashing sign of the reaction of someone who has never not gotten what they wanted. Now, in Season 2, given that background and his relative affectlessness, I wouldn't be surprised if he was still on the anti-depressants, possibly to avoid freaking out Veronica like he freaked out Meg in "A Trip to the Dentist." That would also, if you mind the snark, explain why "cuddling is the best part" of Veronica/Duncan sex. This, I think, is the main difference between Logan and Duncan. Although, financially, Logan is just as privileged as Duncan is, his sense of reality is not nearly as corrupted. Yes, he is used to getting his way. However, there has been no real "cosseting" for him; he screwed up, Aaron beat him. Mom avoided involvement. Logan would most definitely feel that he was "on his own" in the world. Last night's episode was instructive in that regard; whereas Duncan would have smashed the tapes if it had been, say, DaddyKane and Veronica (sorry for the visuals!), Logan is the type to face things head on, no matter the emotional cost. As for the blood clot, I addressed that above, but it does make sense medically; that's one of the big dangers even if one does wake up from a coma. Thank you for providing such good discussion material! Wow! Erin! I really like your speculation on Duncan and the underlying reasons behind his behavior. Very believable and likely, I think. And it makes me realize that I am also kind of waiting for a Duncan explosion, or perhaps implosion. Word. I miss, as Alanna says, BatshitCrazy!Duncan. And thank you for the compliment; I love reading your thoughts too, even if I don't always comment. You, however, are the best about commenting on everyone's work!
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Dec 9, 2005 6:53:04 GMT -5
Do you think anyone managed to debrief Meg about the bus crash before she died? The trauma she went through and her worries about her baby notwithstanding, that seems pretty important since she was the only surviving witness.
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Post by Lola m on Dec 9, 2005 8:27:01 GMT -5
My mother, the wise, observy one, thinks that Veronica being selected to be on the jury and then been chosen as foreman smells of a set up. Maybe connecting back to the VP's machinations in My Mother, The Fiend. Upon rewatching the episode, I really like the way the two plotlines were cut together and how well the passage of time was conveyed. Oooooh, you mean some kind of . . . . conspiracy thingy to get Veronica in a place where she could be involved in the decision? Hmmmmmmmmm. That's very intriguing.
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Post by Lola m on Dec 9, 2005 8:34:27 GMT -5
So negativity is supposively all over for this ep, but I've got finals in a couple days and we have this ep to dwell on for five weeks so I'm trying to only focus on the good. Because if I start my ranting and raving now it'll be like that for five weeks and no one wants that. So a quick positive and annoyingly redundent response for now. Later on I'll do a full initial thoughts post but I need my finales study time right now and I need to keep that happy. Hence the flailiness that follows... --------------------------------- Those damn writers! The Duncan and Meg stuff is still left hanging. I wanted to hate them. I really, really did. BUT THEY GAVE ME WALLACE BACK!! THAT'S THE MOST FABULOUS CHRISTMAS PRESENT EVER!! And then couple that with a fantabulous Logan scene that I've been waiting ALL SEASON to see, and BEST DAMN CHRISTMAS EVER! I couldn't help but feel incredibly happy at the end. For a five week hiatus? Yes, that's the way to end it. I'll probably dissect it to death in about a week but for now, I just want to bask... BECAUSE WALLACE! WALLACE AND VERONICA! BFFOTP FOREVER! OHMYGOD. THE CUTENESS! Ah, I can't be mad at them now! They gave me Wallace back for Christmas. I was almost at the point of tears I missed this boy so much. Acutally, who am I kidding? My favoritest BFFs in the world are reunited. Of course there were tears. Oh WALLACE, I LOVE YOU! I know!! I literally squeeeeeed in my little home when the door opened and there he was!!! So so so so happy about Wallace. As you said, best Christmas present evah! **nods nods nods** I really liked the way that was done. Shots of the video itself, then Logan just sitting there, so devastated. And then the "destruction" of the tape (although, I have my suspicions about that) and Keith at the door. I love how Keith handled the whole theft of the tape. Something had to be done to resolve it, but he also knew that exposing the whole mess was not going to help anyone. ;D Hey, go ahead - join all the rest of us in the shallow end. ;D I really like that observation! It's very fitting with the Veronica we know, isn't it? And, also fits with her still missing Wallace at that point too. And then we have the calm, wonderful scene at the end with the two of them just sitting together, watching New Year's TV. You go, girl! Good luck on your finales. ;D #xfingers#
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Post by Lola m on Dec 9, 2005 8:36:35 GMT -5
My mother, the wise, observy one, thinks that Veronica being selected to be on the jury and then been chosen as foreman smells of a set up. Maybe connecting back to the VP's machinations in My Mother, The Fiend. Upon rewatching the episode, I really like the way the two plotlines were cut together and how well the passage of time was conveyed. Didn't he say something about being a broker? Or a CEO of some kind? Maybe he's tied in with the Casablancas? And how come the sports writer didn't get dismissed for cause; wasn't he the one writing about the athlete/fauxpimp? Well, at the start of the trial, they didn't know he was really this athlete guy, right? Or that fact was being hidden or something. 'Course, that doesn't mean that when the fact came out that there might not have been a suggestion of conflict, but I'm not sure if just writing about him would be enough - unless he also sort of knew him or had interviewed him or something.
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Post by Lola m on Dec 9, 2005 8:38:20 GMT -5
Wow! Erin! I really like your speculation on Duncan and the underlying reasons behind his behavior. Very believable and likely, I think. And it makes me realize that I am also kind of waiting for a Duncan explosion, or perhaps implosion. Word. I miss, as Alanna says, BatshitCrazy!Duncan. And thank you for the compliment; I love reading your thoughts too, even if I don't always comment. You, however, are the best about commenting on everyone's work! BatshitCrazy!Duncan is a marvelous thing to stand back and watch. I mean, I wouldn't actually want to be there in person when he snaps, but it will be much fun to watch from the safety of the other side of my TV. And,
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Post by Lola m on Dec 9, 2005 8:40:44 GMT -5
Do you think anyone managed to debrief Meg about the bus crash before she died? The trauma she went through and her worries about her baby notwithstanding, that seems pretty important since she was the only surviving witness. Very important question. I really hope someone did talke to her about it. I can understand why Veronica didn't, as she was immediately wrapped up into dealing with Meg's pregnancy and so on, but . . . I worry that the official Neptune cops aren't that . . . enthusiastic about investigating the bus crash and missed their opportunity. Or that everyone was thinking that now Meg was fine, so they didn't talk to her right away, figuring they had time to wait until she was more recovered.
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Post by Pixi on Dec 9, 2005 8:55:49 GMT -5
Zimshan - good luck with finals. I'm happy you're happy - really much better to have that perception. I notice it was a writer they don't use very often and I didn't like the script he wrote last year either so I'm willing to cut them some slack.
I too adored Logan in the black. And the sleeves. Honestly a wonderful, wonderful moment. I still feel the first scene with Keith was a little off in his reaction to the tapes being stolen. I'm willing to concede it might have been the editing that did that but I see this opinion reflected elsewhere on LJ so I know I'm not the only one who felt that way. But I too adored seeing Logan do scenes we all had imagined - and do them so perfectly and I loved the way Keith understood and didn't condemn Logan - not in his voice levels or body language when he came to the hotel for stealing the tapes.
This is why I love Keith.
Liz - I don't think anyone did question Meg. Which is seriously wrong especially considering the gunshot/explosion we heard on the cell phone message. Granted the Neptune cops aren't CSI but still - this should have been done.
Erin - I do agree a blood clot is a very logical way to die in this instance. Very believable. When I was scoffing at it - it was more from the nature of the death. I felt Meg's character deserved a better ending - or she should never have woken up from the coma. This whole storyline just screams plot device to me - they had to have her survive, to let her baby grow etc. I just didn't like the soap operatic tone to this plotline.
I do hope to see crazy, explodey Duncan. I do hope there is something behind the wooden nature of his character. I'm glad so many on this board give him a break. Honestly - the acting, I just can't get past it. It drags me out of the scene and I hate that.
I do think the makeup of the jury is important and as I said - I think the jury plotline parelells Logan's involvement in the Felix murder. To the point where someone was paid for false testimony - Dr. Nip Smuck perhaps? And 09ers are convicted - does that mean Dick killed Felix? I don't know (and Dick killing Felix is posted tongue in cheek) but I do think every single thing that happened in that jury room and in the evidence of the case is important. Up to and including the sports angle because I'm sure that and Jackie's father will come back into play.
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Post by Michelle on Dec 9, 2005 9:21:30 GMT -5
So negativity is supposively all over for this ep, but I've got finals in a couple days and we have this ep to dwell on for five weeks so I'm trying to only focus on the good. Because if I start my ranting and raving now it'll be like that for five weeks and no one wants that. So a quick positive and annoyingly redundent response for now. Later on I'll do a full initial thoughts post but I need my finales study time right now and I need to keep that happy. Hence the flailiness that follows... --------------------------------- Those damn writers! The Duncan and Meg stuff is still left hanging. I wanted to hate them. I really, really did. BUT THEY GAVE ME WALLACE BACK!! THAT'S THE MOST FABULOUS CHRISTMAS PRESENT EVER!! And then couple that with a fantabulous Logan scene that I've been waiting ALL SEASON to see, and BEST DAMN CHRISTMAS EVER! I couldn't help but feel incredibly happy at the end. For a five week hiatus? Yes, that's the way to end it. I'll probably dissect it to death in about a week but for now, I just want to bask... BECAUSE WALLACE! WALLACE AND VERONICA! BFFOTP FOREVER! OHMYGOD. THE CUTENESS! Ah, I can't be mad at them now! They gave me Wallace back for Christmas. I was almost at the point of tears I missed this boy so much. Acutally, who am I kidding? My favoritest BFFs in the world are reunited. Of course there were tears. Oh WALLACE, I LOVE YOU! ;D ;D ;D I won't respond line by line to your post, but I wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed it! We needed to have more positive comments in this thread. And I can totally relate to your desire to put off studying! I am doing the same right now. I had a similar reaction to Wallace as well, and it kind of took me off guard. I didn't expect to be so thrilled to see him again. I like him and all...but I didn't realize that I LIKED him, liked him. ;D I didn't have as much of a problem with the jury scenes as others. There were some sly references to power struggles and class division that made it worthwhile for me. The big wig condescending guy calling Veronica Barbie and a cheerleader, for one. He obviously thought that by nominating her as the foreman, he could take advantage of her youth and inexperience to make sure the 09-er kids were acquitted in time for him to make it to his three-martini lunch. Veronica very quietly and diplomatically took charge of the proceedings, however, and that didn't go unnoticed by the woman from Hearst College. A message from Rob Thomas that integrity wins over power, perhaps. The guy with the hat who leered at Veronica and made poor attempts at hip urban references merely thought of her as a cute piece of ass, but Veronica sneakily took advantage of his sports knowledge to help make her case. Good for her! And I liked the Hispanic woman knitting the mile long scarf. She was smart and a touch cynical. And she stood up for what she believed in. I think Veronica can relate. On another note, we also had two more clues that Dick is the arsonist. He told Duncan & Veronica there would be "crazy Chinese pyro guys" at his New Year's Eve party, and referred to Meg as Duncan's "old flame." On yet another note, can anyone recall the line the Keith said after he and Veronica finished the Cornish hens? He said something like, "She's a tiny bird, but she's gotta..." something. I remember when I watched it that I thought it was a reference to Veronica: she's a tiny girl, but she gotta... Argh! Can't remember.
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Post by Sharky on Dec 9, 2005 11:16:08 GMT -5
ETA4: And a note about Veronica. I almost went the whole episode without catching this but then she grabbed the cleaning fluid near the end and all of a sudden I realized it. All the crazy cooking and extreme decorating? That wasn't overly festive Veronica all of a sudden. No, that was how Veronica was dealing with all of this Meg and Duncan stuff. A la A Trip To The Dentist? Therapeutic cleaning? Yup, that's Veronica all the way. Nice catch, that....
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