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Post by Pixi on Dec 8, 2005 16:44:09 GMT -5
Well I agree with those saying 12 Angry Men has been done many times but using the phrase One Angry Veronica does beg the rip off question more intensely I think. Also excellent points Sharky. I think the title is very intentional. Look at the make up of that jury and compare it to the characters in Twelve Angry Men. It's supposed to be very close... I don't have issues with that but I do agree that it wasn't handled well. If the entire episode had focused on the jury, it probably could have been done much better. Instead, we got a half-assed version of what it could have been. I dislike that evidence and pressures from outside where a factor in the decision making. The sports thing could have been something the sports guy remembered instead of Mac leaving the articles for V. The knowledge that the PCHers would think she's siding with the 09ers again could have been something Veronica realized internally rather than having Thumper show up at her job (which I see has been a convenient thing that comes and goes as the writers need V to be in a public place - is The Java Hut the new beach?). Veronica's quick judgement on the case in the first place didn't feel right. The Veronica we met last season? She would never have accepted that story on the surface. I'm guessing we're supposed to see how the events over the summer with Logan have changed her viewpoint a bit. She's no longer so quick to think that the 09ers in a case are lying. I get that she didn't want to be there anymore than the others did but that's no reason to not to take the job of being on a jury seriously. Anyway. I kinda lost my point. I wanted to agree with Pixi that I didn't like the jury thing but mostly because it wasn't handled all that well not because of the 'rip-off' factor. I knew the minute she got the jury summons that it was going to mirror Twelve Angry Men. The title of the episode gave that away but the makeup of that jury clinched it. Hi Rae. #wavey# I agree. There was an old guy in 12, a rich guy who just changed his vote to get out of there, the racist, the sports guy and so forth. Definetely deliberate.
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Post by raenstorm on Dec 8, 2005 16:49:22 GMT -5
I think the title is very intentional. Look at the make up of that jury and compare it to the characters in Twelve Angry Men. It's supposed to be very close... I don't have issues with that but I do agree that it wasn't handled well. If the entire episode had focused on the jury, it probably could have been done much better. Instead, we got a half-assed version of what it could have been. I dislike that evidence and pressures from outside where a factor in the decision making. The sports thing could have been something the sports guy remembered instead of Mac leaving the articles for V. The knowledge that the PCHers would think she's siding with the 09ers again could have been something Veronica realized internally rather than having Thumper show up at her job (which I see has been a convenient thing that comes and goes as the writers need V to be in a public place - is The Java Hut the new beach?). Veronica's quick judgement on the case in the first place didn't feel right. The Veronica we met last season? She would never have accepted that story on the surface. I'm guessing we're supposed to see how the events over the summer with Logan have changed her viewpoint a bit. She's no longer so quick to think that the 09ers in a case are lying. I get that she didn't want to be there anymore than the others did but that's no reason to not to take the job of being on a jury seriously. Anyway. I kinda lost my point. I wanted to agree with Pixi that I didn't like the jury thing but mostly because it wasn't handled all that well not because of the 'rip-off' factor. I knew the minute she got the jury summons that it was going to mirror Twelve Angry Men. The title of the episode gave that away but the makeup of that jury clinched it. Hi Rae. I agree. There was an old guy in 12, a rich guy who just changed his vote to get out of there, the racist, the sports guy and so forth. Definetely deliberate. Hiya
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Post by Matthew on Dec 8, 2005 16:52:47 GMT -5
I was ok with it, even with the suspension of disbelief regarding her jury service. It is very unlikely that she would be seated in RL, but this is fiction and for some reason RT wanted to tell this story. I think it's a vehicle for Veronica to look at the hispanic gang and friends in a more sympathetic light. Sympathetic isn't the right word, but in a more objective light. That being said, I have some thoughts on the jury service itself. Assuming Veronica is 18 years of age and thus legally able to serve, there are actually arguments that favor her presence on the jury. They were pretty clear in my mind this morning, so let's see if I can do them justice. Prosecution View: She's the daughter of the former sheriff, raised ostensibly in a law and order household. So, she might be seen to favor the prosecution's argument more than the defense's argument. Plus her dad's current position as PI strengthens her law and order background and as a sleuth, she might be seen to be more likely than the average joe to be able to connect whatever dots the prosecution missed. Defense View: These kids are from her former peer group and she might be expected to be sympathetic to them. It's a small town so you have to assume that the defense attorneys know the victim is from the same neighborhood as the guys who are adamant that Logan murdered their gang buddy, so she would not be expected to be sympathetic with the victim. (Hey, it's not my prejudice, it would be the defense attorneys' prejudice!) Also, the fact that her father was ousted from his position as the Sheriff and forced to earn a living as a PI could be seen to be advantageous in that the hope would be that she would harbor secret resentment about her loss of status and her father's job loss, thus making her less likely to side with the people who are now in charge of law enforcement in Neptune. The arguments against her being selected to remain are obvious. Daughter of ex-sheriff, too know-it-all, too law and order for the defense, too likely to look at outside information and do own investigation, etc. Would she ever be chosen foreperson? I haven't served on any juries, but my jury forepeople are usually middle aged and have some life experience. The foreperson is responsible for keeping things from getting too rancorous and should be a strong-minded, firm individual who does not impose their views regarding the case on anyone. (If only this were a perfect world.) My experience indicates that Veronica would not have been elected foreperson, and would not have been suggested. But, in this case, it was supposed to be a joke, and it turned out to be a joke on the asshole. Good arguments both ways. I figured that asshole nominated her as foreman because she was young, and female, and (in his mind) easier to influence/control: and would also have appeal he might lack himself. Glad she turned it around on him.
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Post by Queen E on Dec 8, 2005 16:54:16 GMT -5
Okay, let me respond now that I see the details. <snipped for space> Make that two orders of I-won't-take-crap-Veronica, please! I wonder if Wallace won't call her on her current lassitude? <snipped for space> I think she'll be back. Strangely, I don't have a problem with PodVeronica; I tend to write it off as a kind of posttraumatic stress from the events of the past year. She was angry, she was grieving, she felt abused and neglected and her entire life changed in an extremely short span of time. Often times, especially in "Drinking the Kool-Aid," my impression was that she often made it through the days on pure will. What happens when you lose your impetus to push something through to the end when you have little support and very little left to give? You start dating your severely damaged ex in an attempt to get back to a "simpler" time. Personally, I think the real Veronica lies somewhere in between Take-no-Crap Veronica and PodVeronica. Not as angry as she was, but not not willing to call the people she cares about to accountability for their actions.
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Post by Rob on Dec 8, 2005 17:05:01 GMT -5
Okay, let me respond now that I see the details. <snipped for space> Make that two orders of I-won't-take-crap-Veronica, please! I wonder if Wallace won't call her on her current lassitude? <snipped for space> I think she'll be back. Strangely, I don't have a problem with PodVeronica; I tend to write it off as a kind of posttraumatic stress from the events of the past year. She was angry, she was grieving, she felt abused and neglected and her entire life changed in an extremely short span of time. Often times, especially in "Drinking the Kool-Aid," my impression was that she often made it through the days on pure will. What happens when you lose your impetus to push something through to the end when you have little support and very little left to give? You start dating your severely damaged ex in an attempt to get back to a "simpler" time. Personally, I think the real Veronica lies somewhere in between Take-no-Crap Veronica and PodVeronica. Not as angry as she was, but not not willing to call the people she cares about to accountability for their actions. I think trying to accept things in a measured way is a sign of growing maturity, actually. Admittedly, I might have been a little more openly annoyed with Duncan, but they WERE interrupted by Dick Jr. I also think Duncan made up the holiday plans to get Dick the hell out of there, by the way. Well, maybe the plans were true enough...but there's no way Duncan was leaving Meg at that point.
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Post by Michelle on Dec 8, 2005 17:16:02 GMT -5
And the way Meg asked Veronica to make sure her parents don't take the baby "if anything should happen to me." Puh-leez. Why wouldn't she ask Duncan, the father of the child and the son of a rich, powerful family? This does not compute. I think it computes perfectly, actually. Of the people involved who can find a way to honor Meg's wishes, Veronica is the logical candidate to get it done. Meg knows Veronica well enough to trust her in this regard; she's going to save that baby by any means necessary. Meg's motherly instincts were already kicking in, perhaps? True. I can accept that. Oh, me too! Me too. Well, I'm a bit dense I guess, and didn't see the clear foreshadowing. Can you elaborate?
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Post by Rob on Dec 8, 2005 17:31:47 GMT -5
One other thought: if there's one thing the show has clearly foreshadowed, it's Lamb's involvement. However things play out in the operation to save this baby, the sheriff will have a role to play. Probably something along the lines of looking the other way while Veronica and Duncan do whatever has to be done. Well, I'm a bit dense I guess, and didn't see the clear foreshadowing. Can you elaborate? Pretty sure you're not the least bit dense. Generally speaking, there are no wasted character traits shown on VM. Lamb's feelings about the Manning family were made pretty clear in "Nobody Paints Baby Into A Corner." Like anyone else, Lamb has "hot button" issues; child abuse was clearly demonstrated to be one, due to his own personal experience. Based on that, I think Lamb will put aside political or personal games to do what he thinks is right. For me, the foreshadowing came when he let Veronica and Duncan go. Obviously he has no love for her...but she was trying to save an abused child.
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Post by Lola m on Dec 8, 2005 17:32:07 GMT -5
I enjoyed this episode. Maybe I was just more keyed up knowing that this is the last episode for quite some time, but I found myself reacting quite emotionally at several points in the show. I really felt for Veronica. She has to deal with Duncan, a lunkhead of a boyfriend who wants to believe that Meg's pregnancy isn't going to affect their relationship. She took it much better than I would have, and was very supportive of both Duncan and Meg in the hospital room. Did you notice the look Meg shot Duncan when she tried to convince the nurse to let the two of them stay, and Duncan jumped in with, "No, we should go so you can rest." I'm sure she was thinking, "THAT'S ALL I'VE BEEN DOING, YOU DOLT! I WAS IN A COMA!! ;D I really felt for Veronica as well. (The jury plotline kind of strained credibility, but there were definitely still a lot of interesting and emotional moments in this ep.) Especially after Meg asked her to stay behind and voiced her fears for the baby's sake. Veronica is dealing with it all as best she can and then this is added? But at the same time, how much trust and confidence must Meg have had in her underneath all the recent bitterness to talk to her about this? And what does it say about Duncan that Meg didn't include him in that conversation. I hadn't thought of it that way, but I think you're right that that was their last interaction. And that kind of explains things, doesn't it? Wallace was my absolutely favoritest part of the ep! ;D
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Post by LadyDi on Dec 8, 2005 17:38:23 GMT -5
Thanks again to everyone who responded to my cry of distress! Will check those listings.
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Post by Lola m on Dec 8, 2005 17:42:53 GMT -5
Well - I haven't read any comments yet - except the Sharky Voir dire question and I have a feeling that many of the Scubies won't feel like me but I didn't like this episode at all. Well, it's not gonna make my list of favorite episodes, very true, primarily because the jury thing is a bit . . . implausible. So that story didn't suck me in as much. But there were a lot of individual moments that were gems. Like Lamb and Keith! ;D And Logan. And Wallace! Squeeeeee! ;D Yup. Definite good nuggets there. Go ahead, be a heathen! ;D ;D The jury plotline was the weak point for me as well. While one could perhaps be intellectually somewhat interested in the way the facts are examined and re-examined, or the interplay between the characters, I really wasn't emotionally captured by any of them. As a take-off on 12 Angry Men, it was OK, in my opinion, but not stellar. I would imagine that there are a wide variety of reactions to this ep, which is just as it ought to be. Not one of the great episodes, in my humble opinion, but with some very great individual moments. You raise an interesting point when you say that this may end up being very important to the seasonal arc. I'll be interested in how I feel about it when I look back over the whole year, or when I go back and re-watch knowing the way the year played out.
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Post by Lola m on Dec 8, 2005 17:45:33 GMT -5
<snipped for space> But this - this my friends was my Drinking the Kool Aid episode. (my least favorite, never rewatched, didn't like it in the least episode from Season 1). I mean I watched Veronica and Duncan sex and this is far, far worse. And this is just my opinion - as I said, I have a feeling other S'cubies probably liked it. <snipped for space> I didn't buy Veronica accepting this. Yes Spring will have sixty reasons for why she still clings to her normal boyfriend (which will all make sense) but I wanted her to seriously kick some Duncan ass. I am trying to care but honestly Veronica - here - a little ditty for you: So, in the words of the great Judy Garland as she wrote a letter to Clark Gable in the song "You made me love you" Dear Veronica Mars, I am writing this to you And I hope that you will read it so you know My heart thudded like a hammer, I can barely stutter or stammer when I see that you actually still lurve the Donut hole. I know I'm just another fan of yours but I thought you'd want me to write and let you know oh oh oh You made me love you, Season 1 was just so fine, I watch it all the time You made me love you, Solving every mystery, a sassy, feisty history, I don't understand this, "normal" girl who's still with Duncan I want to run, I want to scream, and do some thumping. You made me sigh for, I didn't want to tell you I didn't want to tell you I want some sass that's true, a little snark, a little spark, Indeed I do, you know I do Give me, give me, give me what I cry for you know Logan's got the kisses that you'd die for Give my Veronica back to me! And the whole point of that? I love Veronica, I just want her to be sassy, I won't take crap Veronica again and we are 10 episodes in and I hate to have to keep watching this Veronica. Sigh! Plus I guess Lilly is the love of Logan's life, while Meg is the love of Duncan's life and looks like Veronica is still the love of Leo's life. I hated the way they killed off Meg. She deserved better than that. I think the episode should be called Death Stalks the Pregnant Comatose Patient or How I survived a Horrific Bus Crash only to be slain by an Evil Blood Clot in honor of Meg's soap opera, albeit off-screen death. And why oh why would the hospital call Keith? Other than plot device I don't get it. I'm guessing this episode is going to be important in the season arc. And while it was basically tossed in there, I gather we are supposed to see that Veronica is no longer accepted among the 09ers. Whatever. And why is Dick the one who tells them Meg is awake? Is he on the hotline with Keith as to who gets called regarding Meg's condition? Oh and Duncan - blithing trotting off for the hols with the family while the mother of your unborn child lies in the hospital - you know - they should design Christmas cards for that wonderful feeling. Eeek- I'm starting to let my Duncan feelings seep out so I should probably end this extremely long post. <snipped for space> But overall, color me unimpressed. This is what they air opposite a Lost repeat. This! '. You make a lot of valid points, even though I had no strong feelings one way or the other regarding the episode. Except for Wallace, 'cause that made me very very happy. As for Duncan and Veronica's reactions to Meg's pregnancy...I don't think what happened last night is the final word on their feelings. I think Veronica is still angry, but has put it on the shelf to deal with after things have settled down. I also think that without Wallace, she's sort of lost her compass, so to speak. Wallace definitely serves as the voice of reason, and is not afraid to call her on her bullshit. She has had no one to share all the "shots fired" at her over the past several weeks, and I think she's just spun. As for Duncan, he has never really had to take responsibility for anything, and is one of the most compartmentalized characters I've seen on television. Duncan is the prime example of the cosseted child of privilege. Lily's death? Trauma, followed by a blackout, followed by his parents doing a masterful job of cover-up and putting him on anti-depressants. Finds out he might be related to the woman he loves? Cuts her off completely, gets drugged, has sex with her, and runs. Obviously, a mark of someone who has problems dealing with reality. Then again, when and in what context would he have ever learned those coping skills? The car smashing scene in "A Trip to the Dentist" is a big red flashing sign of the reaction of someone who has never not gotten what they wanted. Now, in Season 2, given that background and his relative affectlessness, I wouldn't be surprised if he was still on the anti-depressants, possibly to avoid freaking out Veronica like he freaked out Meg in "A Trip to the Dentist." That would also, if you mind the snark, explain why "cuddling is the best part" of Veronica/Duncan sex. This, I think, is the main difference between Logan and Duncan. Although, financially, Logan is just as privileged as Duncan is, his sense of reality is not nearly as corrupted. Yes, he is used to getting his way. However, there has been no real "cosseting" for him; he screwed up, Aaron beat him. Mom avoided involvement. Logan would most definitely feel that he was "on his own" in the world. Last night's episode was instructive in that regard; whereas Duncan would have smashed the tapes if it had been, say, DaddyKane and Veronica (sorry for the visuals!), Logan is the type to face things head on, no matter the emotional cost. As for the blood clot, I addressed that above, but it does make sense medically; that's one of the big dangers even if one does wake up from a coma. Thank you for providing such good discussion material! Wow! Erin! I really like your speculation on Duncan and the underlying reasons behind his behavior. Very believable and likely, I think. And it makes me realize that I am also kind of waiting for a Duncan explosion, or perhaps implosion.
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Post by Lola m on Dec 8, 2005 17:52:05 GMT -5
I hated the way they killed off Meg. She deserved better than that. I think the episode should be called Death Stalks the Pregnant Comatose Patient or How I survived a Horrific Bus Crash only to be slain by an Evil Blood Clot in honor of Meg's soap opera, albeit off-screen death. Hee hee!! Well, as you can tell from my post above, I liked the episode more than you did, but I completely agree with this part of your post. Killing off Meg is so hokey and over the top! And the way Meg asked Veronica to make sure her parents don't take the baby "if anything should happen to me." Puh-leez. Why wouldn't she ask Duncan, the father of the child and the son of a rich, powerful family? This does not compute. But as I said, I liked the scenes between Keith and Logan, and as a LoVe shipper, actually makes me more hopeful for the two of them to eventually get together. If Keith sees that Logan isn't just an asshole, he might be more open to his daughter getting back with him. Keith's opinon means a lot to Veronica, and that could smooth the way toward inviting Logan back into her life. Meg's death is my second not favorite bit of the ep, becasue, yes, it is a bit hokey. And I was feeling very much the same way of "why Veronica, why not Duncan". Now that I've been thinking about it, though, I wonder if this is deliberate. To get a final chance for Meg to show Veronica that she really did like and trust her - even though she had been so angry at her before. And to perhaps underscore that something is up with Duncan, something that Meg knows / understands and this is why she's not turning to him. Of course, I'm a notorious fanwanker. ;D
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Post by Lola m on Dec 8, 2005 17:57:52 GMT -5
Okay- trying to look at the episode - post rant - and see what exactly happened and where they are going with this. Obviously they picked up the Aaron trial arc and the class warfare arc. One more successfully than the other. Yup! I even feel it was a deliberate push to have us compare the people involved with the characters we know from Neptune High. To say, this is Dick Jr in a few years, this is Weevil in a few years, etc. Ooooh, interesting comparison - I hadn't looked at it that way yet. Well, and we have a lot of time to pick this ep apart, as well as the ones before it.
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Post by Lola m on Dec 8, 2005 17:59:28 GMT -5
And the way Meg asked Veronica to make sure her parents don't take the baby "if anything should happen to me." Puh-leez. Why wouldn't she ask Duncan, the father of the child and the son of a rich, powerful family? This does not compute. I think it computes perfectly, actually. Of the people involved who can find a way to honor Meg's wishes, Veronica is the logical candidate to get it done. Meg knows Veronica well enough to trust her in this regard; she's going to save that baby by any means necessary. No doubt Duncan's money and family influence will be hugely involved...but I think Meg instinctively didn't trust him to be in charge of the operation. I'm not as down on Duncan as some, but there's definitely some precedent to back up those instincts. If Meg wasn't willing to share her pregnancy with Duncan pre-bus crash, she surely isn't going to trust her baby's long-term fate to him...at least, not primarily. Veronica would be the one to find a way. I actually liked the little touch of asking Veronica alone; Meg waited for Duncan to be out of the room to spare his feelings. I'm really going to miss Meg. One other thought: if there's one thing the show has clearly foreshadowed, it's Lamb's involvement. However things play out in the operation to save this baby, the sheriff will have a role to play. Probably something along the lines of looking the other way while Veronica and Duncan do whatever has to be done. Good points, Rob! I like your thoughts about Lamb's possible involvement.
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Post by Lola m on Dec 8, 2005 18:01:57 GMT -5
Is there a 22-24 episode per year show that NEVER featured episodes that did little to advance the overall plot arc of the season? "24," I suppose, could be presented as a possibility (though I wouldn't agree)...but other than that, it's impossible to ask a writer to keep two or three season-long storylines moving at the same consistent pace for 16 hours of film. There has to be the occasional episode where less meaningful events happen. Especially a series with the budgetary constraints of VM; obviously they could do nothing with Wallace/Jackie while he was away, and Weevil can only appear in limited doses as well. Sometimes we might ask a bit too much of them on a week-to-week basis. A feature film can tell a story straight through; a full length hour-long tv series simply cannot. **nods** And often those shows that I didn't like as much or that seemed to not "fit" as much feel different when I view them in the context of the whole season. For example, if I'm re-watching a whole season or the whole run of Buffy or Angel (as I do sometimes), I tend to find a lot more than I realized in those eps that I didn't like, or didn't like as much, first time around.
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