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Post by Sue on Dec 8, 2005 13:49:36 GMT -5
Mine reruns it on Sunday night at 7:00p.m. LadyDi - let me know if you don't see it because I could send you my tape at some point. Hee - I'm not that attached to it. Well, I still want it because there was Keith and pretty Logan but if you can't catch a rerun, let me know. I haven't checked the tapes, but I should have 2. Still, before the mailing starts I'd check TVGuide listings in your area --- UPN anything Saturday night or Sunday night, 6 through midnight, seems to be fair game. If it doesn't rerun, you've still got 6 weeks to watch it.
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Post by Pixi on Dec 8, 2005 13:50:08 GMT -5
I hated the way they killed off Meg. She deserved better than that. I think the episode should be called Death Stalks the Pregnant Comatose Patient or How I survived a Horrific Bus Crash only to be slain by an Evil Blood Clot in honor of Meg's soap opera, albeit off-screen death. Hee hee!! Well, as you can tell from my post above, I liked the episode more than you did, but I completely agree with this part of your post. Killing off Meg is so hokey and over the top! And the way Meg asked Veronica to make sure her parents don't take the baby "if anything should happen to me." Puh-leez. Why wouldn't she ask Duncan, the father of the child and the son of a rich, powerful family? This does not compute. But as I said, I liked the scenes between Keith and Logan, and as a LoVe shipper, actually makes me more hopeful for the two of them to eventually get together. If Keith sees that Logan isn't just an asshole, he might be more open to his daughter getting back with him. Keith's opinon means a lot to Veronica, and that could smooth the way toward inviting Logan back into her life. Oh I agree - I liked the Keith/Logan scenes. And JD was awesome in the scene watching the tapes - that sleeve thing while he was crying and the pain was pouring out of him was magnificent. And I liked the scene where Keith came to the hotel. I just felt the initial scene in the interrogation room was a little off. I've since read some commentary that it was editing choices and maybe so because there would naturally be an element of awkward with the meeting. And Keith did a great job - along with Alona and Jason in selling their scenes. The jury scenes were boring. I don't care what kind of point RT was trying to make - you have to entertain your audience. I'm always entertained by VM and the jury scenes had me bored. They could have been done without the stereotypical - Latino wise woman, the black intelligent this is how we will keep VM in Neptune next season if there is one woman, the goofy I have my hat on the whole time, the older guy, the rich guy who is prejudiced promenade of actors. It was almost like - here pick a latino, we need a black, an old guy, hmmm lets see who else? And while knitting latino woman was okay - it was just all too exposition, sitting in one room without great acting time.
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Post by Pixi on Dec 8, 2005 13:53:26 GMT -5
Whiplash. One second: Meg is dead. Next second. Yay, Wallace. =========== Lamb working out, just a head shot. Me to Carolyn: "he'll be shirtless." Nope Oh, now yep. Then he adjusts his sweatpants, looking like they are coming off too. We just whooped! I like Michael and I like Lamb but the scene just didn't work for me. I too felt he was going to strip there for a minute. He was being awfully nice to Keith too - I missed his snark. I wonder if Woody was behind that. I almost felt like he was going to break the wall and ask the audience what they thought about his magnificent bod?
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Post by Pixi on Dec 8, 2005 13:54:55 GMT -5
The "kindness of strangers" line is a direct quote from "Streetcar Named Desire;" Blanche Dubois says it when the guys in the white coats come to take her away. I loved the kindness of strangers line. I knew immediately it was Leo who took the tape from that comment.
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Post by Onjel on Dec 8, 2005 13:57:53 GMT -5
Hee hee!! Well, as you can tell from my post above, I liked the episode more than you did, but I completely agree with this part of your post. Killing off Meg is so hokey and over the top! And the way Meg asked Veronica to make sure her parents don't take the baby "if anything should happen to me." Puh-leez. Why wouldn't she ask Duncan, the father of the child and the son of a rich, powerful family? This does not compute. But as I said, I liked the scenes between Keith and Logan, and as a LoVe shipper, actually makes me more hopeful for the two of them to eventually get together. If Keith sees that Logan isn't just an asshole, he might be more open to his daughter getting back with him. Keith's opinon means a lot to Veronica, and that could smooth the way toward inviting Logan back into her life. Oh I agree - I liked the Keith/Logan scenes. And JD was awesome in the scene watching the tapes - that sleeve thing while he was crying and the pain was pouring out of him was magnificent. And I liked the scene where Keith came to the hotel. I just felt the initial scene in the interrogation room was a little off. I've since read some commentary that it was editing choices and maybe so because there would naturally be an element of awkward with the meeting. And Keith did a great job - along with Alona and Jason in selling their scenes. The jury scenes were boring. I don't care what kind of point RT was trying to make - you have to entertain your audience. I'm always entertained by VM and the jury scenes had me bored. They could have been done without the stereotypical - Latino wise woman, the black intelligent this is how we will keep VM in Neptune next season if there is one woman, the goofy I have my hat on the whole time, the older guy, the rich guy who is prejudiced promenade of actors. It was almost like - here pick a latino, we need a black, an old guy, hmmm lets see who else? And while knitting latino woman was okay - it was just all too exposition, sitting in one room without great acting time. The makeup of the jury was a bit cliche, I'll give you that. The only thing I wasn't bored with, although it was all too predictable, was the interaction between the rich racist guy and Veronica. What I liked about it was the plain fact that I would have had that guys nuts on a platter, but she was so diplomatic and sly in her cuts. I liked that part. The other characters didn't move me much, however.
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Post by Sharky on Dec 8, 2005 14:50:02 GMT -5
I was ok with it, even with the suspension of disbelief regarding her jury service. It is very unlikely that she would be seated in RL, but this is fiction and for some reason RT wanted to tell this story. I think it's a vehicle for Veronica to look at the hispanic gang and friends in a more sympathetic light. Sympathetic isn't the right word, but in a more objective light. That being said, I have some thoughts on the jury service itself. Assuming Veronica is 18 years of age and thus legally able to serve, there are actually arguments that favor her presence on the jury. They were pretty clear in my mind this morning, so let's see if I can do them justice. Prosecution View: She's the daughter of the former sheriff, raised ostensibly in a law and order household. So, she might be seen to favor the prosecution's argument more than the defense's argument. Plus her dad's current position as PI strengthens her law and order background and as a sleuth, she might be seen to be more likely than the average joe to be able to connect whatever dots the prosecution missed. Defense View: These kids are from her former peer group and she might be expected to be sympathetic to them. It's a small town so you have to assume that the defense attorneys know the victim is from the same neighborhood as the guys who are adamant that Logan murdered their gang buddy, so she would not be expected to be sympathetic with the victim. (Hey, it's not my prejudice, it would be the defense attorneys' prejudice!) Also, the fact that her father was ousted from his position as the Sheriff and forced to earn a living as a PI could be seen to be advantageous in that the hope would be that she would harbor secret resentment about her loss of status and her father's job loss, thus making her less likely to side with the people who are now in charge of law enforcement in Neptune. The arguments against her being selected to remain are obvious. Daughter of ex-sheriff, too know-it-all, too law and order for the defense, too likely to look at outside information and do own investigation, etc. Would she ever be chosen foreperson? I haven't served on any juries, but my jury forepeople are usually middle aged and have some life experience. The foreperson is responsible for keeping things from getting too rancorous and should be a strong-minded, firm individual who does not impose their views regarding the case on anyone. (If only this were a perfect world.) My experience indicates that Veronica would not have been elected foreperson, and would not have been suggested. But, in this case, it was supposed to be a joke, and it turned out to be a joke on the asshole. #claps# Nice summation, counselor. Like you, I find the idea of Veronica being selected in RL improbable. Not, however, impossible. And the reasons you give why her presence on the jury would be acceptable to both sides make sense.
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Post by Sharky on Dec 8, 2005 15:38:18 GMT -5
Okay, let me respond now that I see the details. And - lest my fellow S'cubies assume it's a shipping thing - rest assued. I've laid my little shipping desires in cold storage where Rob apparently placed all the chemistry/sparkage between Logan and Veronica. This feeling I have has nothing to do with shipping. Wouldn't insult you by suggesting such a thing. You were the other one! 'Salright. Seems a tad over-the-top. Luckily, we didn't have to watch VD sex, just the edited-for-TV version. With you on the nuggets. Well, except the "so pretty" thing on Crying Logan. But, a moment that gained some sympathy from me. The "Mr. Mars" moments were great for me, too. I don't know about boring. I found the plot elements concerning the evidence tapes entertaining. But, I'll admit, I thought the punches were telegraphed way too far in advance. Once Logan took the e-mail sheet, there was no question who was trolling for deputies. I would argue that "12 Angry Men" has become an archetype. Every jury room scene since will be compared to that film. Now, giving the episode the title "One Angry Veronica" is inviting comparison where I would say none should have existed. This is a problem I have with the series on occasion. I'm so focused on the arc that I wish the rest of it would just drop away. Some mysteries work, some don't. I felt the logic followed by the jury to get from one verdict to the other was well-conceived. But, I'll agree that I had no connection with the case. If it had involved characters I knew, maybe it would have worked. As it was, other than being happy justice was served, I really didn't care. You know, I still don't know if TD can't act or if he's doing the most amazing rendition of minimally sentient plant life we've ever seen. Could pod-Giles have infected Veronica? There's a crossover for you! I, too, am losing respect for the girl. The only way she could sit through Duncan's speech about the baby not affecting the two of them without pulling out a Tazer and frying him until he was ready to be served with a side of pancakes is if someone's been putting Thorazine in her lattes. Make that two orders of I-won't-take-crap-Veronica, please! I wonder if Wallace won't call her on her current lassitude? Nope. Don't see it this way, really. Logan has Liily issues all tangled up with Daddy-Monster issues that would take any real human being time to assimilate. Duncan is still the love of Duncan's life, and his interest in Meg purely had to do with the little "Duncanette". (Will they name her Sugar or Kandy? Probably not Raisin.) As for Leo, who knows? And, I'd say the same about Veronica. My hot button surrounding Meg is the whole "scary religious people" business. It's getting way overdone. I think the character could have been used better through the year, but I didn't care enough about her for her death to affect me. And, again, they telegraphed it with the stupid alternative ending last week. Anyway, as you can see, some agreement and some disagreement here. I didn't consider the 45 minutes watching it on tape a waste of my time. Not the best episode of the series, but still better than the best "According to Jim".
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Dec 8, 2005 15:58:12 GMT -5
I would argue that "12 Angry Men" has become an archetype. Every jury room scene since will be compared to that film. Now, giving the episode the title "One Angry Veronica" is inviting comparison where I would say none should have existed. The scenario (the 11 guilty/1 not guilty to a complete turnaround of the jury scenario) has been done and done so many times that I don't think it could be considered "ripping off" any more, no more than any movie referencing the "Seven Samurai" scenario can be considered ripping off that film. And thanks so much Onjel for your professional opinion on the episode. Much better than speculation and hearsay.
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Post by Pixi on Dec 8, 2005 16:04:29 GMT -5
Okay- trying to look at the episode - post rant - and see what exactly happened and where they are going with this.
Obviously they picked up the Aaron trial arc and the class warfare arc. One more successfully than the other.
So the girl who was accused was beaten up and threw the weapon away.
She must be Logan. Logan was beaten up by the PCHers and then threw the weapon away.
What else happened? Well a friend showed up to help her and two rich 09ers are accused of the crime. Veronica goes all Henry Fonda and changes the opinion of every one in the room.
I honestly think though that there is still some reasonable doubt. Onjel can probably clarify this better than I can but 12 Angry Men went from conviction to acquittal because of reasonable doubt. To go from acquital to conviction is a slightly more extreme step to take.
Aaron's trial - I hope the ultimate goal of all this is Aaron Echolls back in town. I really do. Because I love me some creepy Aaron. Still - conviction now seems to reside on the testimony of Veronica as more physical evidence disappears. This can't be good.
I can never really pick out themes like Sue and Spring do but I'm going to go think about it a little more and see what pops into my admittedly wonked brain.
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Post by Pixi on Dec 8, 2005 16:10:09 GMT -5
Well I agree with those saying 12 Angry Men has been done many times but using the phrase One Angry Veronica does beg the rip off question more intensely I think.
Also excellent points Sharky. #clap#
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Post by Sharky on Dec 8, 2005 16:17:04 GMT -5
Well I agree with those saying 12 Angry Men has been done many times but using the phrase One Angry Veronica does beg the rip off question more intensely I think. Also excellent points Sharky. Thanks! I find myself chuckling sometimes over the similarities to Buffy's hey-day. Sometimes the monster of the week just didn't work for everybody. That's okay.
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Post by Rob on Dec 8, 2005 16:18:24 GMT -5
And the way Meg asked Veronica to make sure her parents don't take the baby "if anything should happen to me." Puh-leez. Why wouldn't she ask Duncan, the father of the child and the son of a rich, powerful family? This does not compute. I think it computes perfectly, actually. Of the people involved who can find a way to honor Meg's wishes, Veronica is the logical candidate to get it done. Meg knows Veronica well enough to trust her in this regard; she's going to save that baby by any means necessary. No doubt Duncan's money and family influence will be hugely involved...but I think Meg instinctively didn't trust him to be in charge of the operation. I'm not as down on Duncan as some, but there's definitely some precedent to back up those instincts. If Meg wasn't willing to share her pregnancy with Duncan pre-bus crash, she surely isn't going to trust her baby's long-term fate to him...at least, not primarily. Veronica would be the one to find a way. I actually liked the little touch of asking Veronica alone; Meg waited for Duncan to be out of the room to spare his feelings. I'm really going to miss Meg. One other thought: if there's one thing the show has clearly foreshadowed, it's Lamb's involvement. However things play out in the operation to save this baby, the sheriff will have a role to play. Probably something along the lines of looking the other way while Veronica and Duncan do whatever has to be done.
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Post by Rob on Dec 8, 2005 16:32:36 GMT -5
Is there a 22-24 episode per year show that NEVER featured episodes that did little to advance the overall plot arc of the season?
"24," I suppose, could be presented as a possibility (though I wouldn't agree)...but other than that, it's impossible to ask a writer to keep two or three season-long storylines moving at the same consistent pace for 16 hours of film.
There has to be the occasional episode where less meaningful events happen. Especially a series with the budgetary constraints of VM; obviously they could do nothing with Wallace/Jackie while he was away, and Weevil can only appear in limited doses as well.
Sometimes we might ask a bit too much of them on a week-to-week basis. A feature film can tell a story straight through; a full length hour-long tv series simply cannot.
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Post by raenstorm on Dec 8, 2005 16:38:14 GMT -5
Well I agree with those saying 12 Angry Men has been done many times but using the phrase One Angry Veronica does beg the rip off question more intensely I think. Also excellent points Sharky. I think the title is very intentional. Look at the make up of that jury and compare it to the characters in Twelve Angry Men. It's supposed to be very close... I don't have issues with that but I do agree that it wasn't handled well. If the entire episode had focused on the jury, it probably could have been done much better. Instead, we got a half-assed version of what it could have been. I dislike that evidence and pressures from outside where a factor in the decision making. The sports thing could have been something the sports guy remembered instead of Mac leaving the articles for V. The knowledge that the PCHers would think she's siding with the 09ers again could have been something Veronica realized internally rather than having Thumper show up at her job (which I see has been a convenient thing that comes and goes as the writers need V to be in a public place - is The Java Hut the new beach?). Veronica's quick judgement on the case in the first place didn't feel right. The Veronica we met last season? She would never have accepted that story on the surface. I'm guessing we're supposed to see how the events over the summer with Logan have changed her viewpoint a bit. She's no longer so quick to think that the 09ers in a case are lying. I get that she didn't want to be there anymore than the others did but that's no reason to not to take the job of being on a jury seriously. Anyway. I kinda lost my point. I wanted to agree with Pixi that I didn't like the jury thing but mostly because it wasn't handled all that well not because of the 'rip-off' factor. I knew the minute she got the jury summons that it was going to mirror Twelve Angry Men. The title of the episode gave that away but the makeup of that jury clinched it.
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Post by Pixi on Dec 8, 2005 16:40:49 GMT -5
Is there a 22-24 episode per year show that NEVER featured episodes that did little to advance the overall plot arc of the season? "24," I suppose, could be presented as a possibility (though I wouldn't agree)...but other than that, it's impossible to ask a writer to keep two or three season-long storylines moving at the same consistent pace for 16 hours of film. There has to be the occasional episode where less meaningful events happen. Especially a series with the budgetary constraints of VM; obviously they could do nothing with Wallace/Jackie while he was away, and Weevil can only appear in limited doses as well. Sometimes we might ask a bit too much of them on a week-to-week basis. A feature film can tell a story straight through; a full length hour-long tv series simply cannot. Honestly - I really do think lots of things occurred to advance the plot. I just felt unhappy with some of the ways that resolutions occurred. Really when you think about it - there was probably a counterpart on the jury for all the major players in the mystery this year with CEO being either Woody or Big Dick Casablancas and so on and so on. But TWOP and LJ seem about equally divided. Some really hate it, some are meh, some just like the things they like and ignore what they don't. And honestly there were many episodes in season 1 which weren't totally stellar too. But at least Wallace is back. Maybe he'll shake Veronica up.
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