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Post by Sara on Jan 28, 2006 21:45:24 GMT -5
Huh. Apollo just went in, on a suicidal-type mission: put a gun to the head of an evil and inhuman-acting monster of a leader, and shot him: of his own initiative: where Adama's orders to Kara to something pretty much equivalent? Were part of what drove him to the point of "not wanting to be recovered" when he'd ejected. We become what we hate? Huh. FRACK! NO STARBUCK!!!! DAMMIT!!! I think one important difference is that it was never part of Apollo's assignment to kill anyone--just to find out who murdered the Pegasus' captain. Nor do I think Lee intended to kill Phelan when he went over to the Prometheus; after all, he didn't yet know Phelan was selling children and he didn't bring any sort of weapon. There wasn't nearly the level of premeditation in what Lee did that there was in what Adama asked of Apollo. But I think Lee also knew that, unlike in Cain's case, there truly was no middle ground with Phelan--no appealing to his better nature and no negotiating. Phelan was able to get himself and his men not only onboard Pegasus but inside an officer's quarters with ease, killed without compunction or remorse, and apparently felt no sense of loyalty whatsoever towards his people. The only way anyone was ever going to stop Phelan was to kill him, and Lee had to know that there'd most likely never be a better opportunity. To borrow a phrase, Lee looked the moment in the eye... and didn't flinch. And if Adama's decision to execute Cain was part of what Lee hated, then Lee actually didn't become what he despised--after all, unlike his father Lee actually pulled the trigger.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 28, 2006 22:31:11 GMT -5
Huh. Apollo just went in, on a suicidal-type mission: put a gun to the head of an evil and inhuman-acting monster of a leader, and shot him: of his own initiative: where Adama's orders to Kara to something pretty much equivalent? Were part of what drove him to the point of "not wanting to be recovered" when he'd ejected. We become what we hate? Huh. FRACK! NO STARBUCK!!!! DAMMIT!!! I hadn't thought of it that way, but it's very intriguing. There are definite parallels to what Adama asked Starbuck to do. We become what we hate? We become the Cylons? They become us? But remember from what Boomer said, the Cylons don't exactly hate us.
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Post by Karen on Jan 28, 2006 22:41:57 GMT -5
Huh. Apollo just went in, on a suicidal-type mission: put a gun to the head of an evil and inhuman-acting monster of a leader, and shot him: of his own initiative: where Adama's orders to Kara to something pretty much equivalent? Were part of what drove him to the point of "not wanting to be recovered" when he'd ejected. We become what we hate? Huh. FRACK! NO STARBUCK!!!! DAMMIT!!! I think one important difference is that it was never part of Apollo's assignment to kill anyone--just to find out who murdered the Pegasus' captain. Nor do I think Lee intended to kill Phelan when he went over to the Prometheus; after all, he didn't yet know Phelan was selling children and he didn't bring any sort of weapon. There wasn't nearly the level of premeditation in what Lee did that there was in what Adama asked of Apollo. But I think Lee also knew that, unlike in Cain's case, there truly was no middle ground with Phelan--no appealing to his better nature and no negotiating. Phelan was able to get himself and his men not only onboard Pegasus but inside an officer's quarters with ease, killed without compunction or remorse, and apparently felt no sense of loyalty whatsoever towards his people. The only way anyone was ever going to stop Phelan was to kill him, and Lee had to know that there'd most likely never be a better opportunity. To borrow a phrase, Lee looked the moment in the eye... and didn't flinch. And if Adama's decision to execute Cain was part of what Lee hated, then Lee actually didn't become what he despised--after all, unlike his father Lee actually pulled the trigger. Oh - good catch!I think that Lee actually became more like his father when he made the decision to shoot Phelan. Not someone that he hates, but someone he actually admires - although he may disagree with him at times. When Phelan told Lee - "I'm not my father, and you are not like your old man." It paralled what Roslin had said to Baltar when she asked him to resign (dang it, can't remember the exact words). Her words had the opposite effect of what she was looking for - Baltar took it as a challange. It seemed to me that Phelan's words to Lee did the same.
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Post by Matthew on Jan 29, 2006 2:33:55 GMT -5
Huh. Apollo just went in, on a suicidal-type mission: put a gun to the head of an evil and inhuman-acting monster of a leader, and shot him: of his own initiative: where Adama's orders to Kara to something pretty much equivalent? Were part of what drove him to the point of "not wanting to be recovered" when he'd ejected. We become what we hate? Huh. FRACK! NO STARBUCK!!!! DAMMIT!!! I hadn't thought of it that way, but it's very intriguing. There are definite parallels to what Adama asked Starbuck to do. We become what we hate? We become the Cylons? They become us? *resists urge to quote Pogo, but leaves it out there, just the same* Yeah, while Phelan was not a... legitimate authority, and his organization was not sanctioned by the society, it could be argued that Cain's ship had also forfeitted "legitimacy" in the war crimes they committed at her order. That Cain and Phelan (and Fisk) were all of the same order of creature, in a way: survivors that have survived at the cost of their humanity. and now I'm just waxing bombastically. Eh. Anybody else got any ideas about the apparent parallels?
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Post by Matthew on Jan 29, 2006 2:39:20 GMT -5
Huh. Apollo just went in, on a suicidal-type mission: put a gun to the head of an evil and inhuman-acting monster of a leader, and shot him: of his own initiative: where Adama's orders to Kara to something pretty much equivalent? Were part of what drove him to the point of "not wanting to be recovered" when he'd ejected. We become what we hate? Huh. FRACK! NO STARBUCK!!!! DAMMIT!!! I think one important difference is that it was never part of Apollo's assignment to kill anyone--just to find out who murdered the Pegasus' captain. Nor do I think Lee intended to kill Phelan when he went over to the Prometheus; after all, he didn't yet know Phelan was selling children and he didn't bring any sort of weapon. There wasn't nearly the level of premeditation in what Lee did that there was in what Adama asked of Apollo. But I think Lee also knew that, unlike in Cain's case, there truly was no middle ground with Phelan--no appealing to his better nature and no negotiating. Phelan was able to get himself and his men not only onboard Pegasus but inside an officer's quarters with ease, killed without compunction or remorse, and apparently felt no sense of loyalty whatsoever towards his people. The only way anyone was ever going to stop Phelan was to kill him, and Lee had to know that there'd most likely never be a better opportunity. To borrow a phrase, Lee looked the moment in the eye... and didn't flinch. And if Adama's decision to execute Cain was part of what Lee hated, then Lee actually didn't become what he despised--after all, unlike his father Lee actually pulled the trigger. Your last line has me all tangled up in the head, though I know what you mean. And YES!!!! That's the kinda stuff I'm talking about. I think that he knew he'd have to kill Phelan, though, from the moment he had his confrontation with him in Shevan's quarters: as you say, no middle ground. Cain seemed that way, too, though: but her defering Adama's assasination when she sees that Adama has not carried out his.. that just.. gives her a level of either "humanity" or "cunning" (I'm not sure which) that just annoys me, because I wanna just see her as a cunning time-biding monster, not a terribly terribly damaged and self-hating human being. Oh, and love your phrase-borrowing.
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Post by Karen on Jan 29, 2006 18:41:20 GMT -5
I hadn't thought of it that way, but it's very intriguing. There are definite parallels to what Adama asked Starbuck to do. We become what we hate? We become the Cylons? They become us? *resists urge to quote Pogo, but leaves it out there, just the same* Yeah, while Phelan was not a... legitimate authority, and his organization was not sanctioned by the society, it could be argued that Cain's ship had also forfeitted "legitimacy" in the war crimes they committed at her order. That Cain and Phelan (and Fisk) were all of the same order of creature, in a way: survivors that have survived at the cost of their humanity. and now I'm just waxing bombastically. Eh. Anybody else got any ideas about the apparent parallels? Not a parallel exactly, but I was impressed with the apparent ease by which Zarek took over Phelan's role on the Prometheus - complete with Phelan's ever present bodyguard. Not so much the rebel anymore, but part of the system. By the by...Richard Hatch is now listed as one of the main characters, too.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 29, 2006 22:13:22 GMT -5
Kind of confused after this episode:
So... Lee had a relationship with a woman just before the attack, he's got a thing for Starbuck, he's had this more than just business relationship with this prostitute, and he's got something going on with Dee. Did I leave anything out? I don't get it.
Feel an intense desire to watch things over from the beginning to see if this all makes sense somehow.
Liked the Tigh/Lee scene, liked the Adama father/son bonding.
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Post by Lola m on Jan 30, 2006 14:01:38 GMT -5
I hadn't thought of it that way, but it's very intriguing. There are definite parallels to what Adama asked Starbuck to do. We become what we hate? We become the Cylons? They become us? But remember from what Boomer said, the Cylons don't exactly hate us. But is that because they're already sort-of us? Created by us, so . . .
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Post by Lola m on Jan 30, 2006 14:05:21 GMT -5
Kind of confused after this episode: So... Lee had a relationship with a woman just before the attack, he's got a thing for Starbuck, he's had this more than just business relationship with this prostitute, and he's got something going on with Dee. Did I leave anything out? I don't get it. Feel an intense desire to watch things over from the beginning to see if this all makes sense somehow. Liked the Tigh/Lee scene, liked the Adama father/son bonding. ;D Lee is the superstud of Galactica. ;D Actually, I think Lee joins you in your confusion. I can't decide if Lee really thinks he and Starbuck have a thing or not. I think he's sort of in denial about that.
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Post by Karen on Jan 30, 2006 15:10:05 GMT -5
Kind of confused after this episode: So... Lee had a relationship with a woman just before the attack, he's got a thing for Starbuck, he's had this more than just business relationship with this prostitute, and he's got something going on with Dee. Did I leave anything out? I don't get it. Feel an intense desire to watch things over from the beginning to see if this all makes sense somehow. Liked the Tigh/Lee scene, liked the Adama father/son bonding. ;D Lee is the superstud of Galactica. ;D Actually, I think Lee joins you in your confusion. I can't decide if Lee really thinks he and Starbuck have a thing or not. I think he's sort of in denial about that. Speaking of Starbuck/Apollo. The previews seemed to show that we'll be getting some of that action in the next episode. ;D Lots of Starbuck angst, too. It looks to be a good one.
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