What makes Buffy & Angel shows so unique to you

[KJackson]

What for you made (and still makes) the Buffy and Angel TV shows so individually unique and compelling to you (despite both having finished their respective runs)?



Edited to Add:

Though KJackson doesn't tell you here, she is an Australian student taking a media course, and the survey she is conducting is part of a Buffy Studies project. So, take a moment and help her out!

[SpringSummers]

KJackson said:

What for you made (and still makes) the Buffy and Angel TV shows so individually unique and compelling to you (despite both being finished their respective runs).

Hi, KJackson.

I'll play . . .

What made BtVS so compelling to me was the emotional honesty of it, and the way it just resonated in my world. My world isn't full of vampires and demons - except it kind of is.

It was funny and cleverly written, but didn't sacrifice depth to do that. It took chances and stayed true to reality and its own characterizations, even if it meant that traditional story lines were eschewed in favor of less romantic (but actually realistic) results.

And I loved the whole girl-power aspect. There is only one Buffy.

[Sue]

KJackson said:

What for you made (and still makes) the Buffy and Angel TV shows so individually unique and compelling to you (despite both being finished their respective runs).

KJ-

Others may also respond. However, you may also find it interesting (and any other more recent S'cubies) to find the area on the front page marked "ScoopMe Archives." Go there, go to page 2, about a third of the way down find the thread marked: "Nerd Alert...Goodbye Buffy."

There are about 2 dozen posts written a few days before Chosen aired two years ago.

Very compelling and emotional reading.

And, welcome.

Sue

[Rachael]

Hmm...compelling is easier - it's the writing. It's all about the writing. The dialogue was superb, and the characters had depth and believability, despite the utter unbelievability of the subject matter.

Not that suspension of disbelief is a problem for me - hence my willingness to tune into a show called "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" from Day 1.

Also - the unpredictability of it. You never knew where it was gonna go. From the first scene, where it turns out that Darla, not her male companion, is the monster in the dark, all the way to the end, where the Chosen One decides to empower every potential Slayer in the world, and change all the rules of the game...Joss and his crew never stopped surprising me.

[Lola m]

The intelligence and cleverness and uniqueness of the writing - dialog in particular. Or we would not all still be making word play with Joss and Co's language this many years later.

The unexpected plot twists and the complex story arc. Not just within one season, but echoing through and weaving through the whole series.

The strength and depth of the many female characters, while at the same time not turning the male characters into cardboard dolls, either. Everyone, even most of the "one-off" characters are so . . . fully realized.

The emotional honesty - sometimes searingly, painfully true. Aided by some of the best acting you'll see on television.

A fully realized creation of this particular world - complete as our own world, and believably fitting within it, yet also distinct and recognizable in its own way.

Funny! Funny! Funny! And then it'll rip your heart out.

Lola

Hmmmm. That's what I've got off the top of my head. I may come back and add more.

[Queen E]

KJackson said:

What for you made (and still makes) the Buffy and Angel TV shows so individually unique and compelling to you (despite both having finished their respective runs)?



Edited to Add:

Though KJackson doesn't tell you here, she is an Australian student taking a media course, and the survey she is conducting is part of a Buffy Studies project. So, take a moment and help her out!

1. As a writer, I think that the writing is sprightly and exciting. It's clever and fast-paced without being overly arch.

2. I'm a sucker for vampire lore. And it so rare to see fully rounded female characters, that can be angry, tender, strong, smart, and funny, without turning the male characters into 2-dimensional good guys or bad guys.

3. Most importantly, the characterization is, 99% of the time, spot on. Even moments that completely surprised me: Buffy killing a newly ensouled Angel, the death of Jenny Calender, Darla's birth by staking, Faith in Buffy, Spike and Buffy's bring down the house first time, Buffy's leap from the tower, to name a few, were natural extensions of both the story and the characters. And, unlike several shows I could mention, we don't see the characters relearning the same lessons in different clothes each week. They actually grow and change.

All make both Buffy and Angel nearly always rewatchable. I always see something new. Watching them is like reading a favorite book...and there is really a novelistic quality to both shows that is very appealing to me.

Hope that helps!

[Patti - S'cubie Cutie]

The writing and the acting. Joss Whedon is a remarkable storyteller, and he has a remarkable talent for FINDING talent.
He created characters I could care about - and the actors made them people I wanted to travel with. Seeing the shows now - it's like looking into your family album and remembering how much fun it was when it happened, and knowing it is part of your life forever.

[S'ewing S'cubie]

From the moment I saw that the monster in the dark was the pretty blonde girl and not the boy to the line against the marauding demons in the alley behind the Hyperion I've been mesermized. In fact, I still am.

First and foremost it's the imaginative writing. The plots twist and slither and never do what you think they will. The dialogue, underscored by the gifted deliveries, is witty, funny, poignant, heartwrenching and real.

Then there are story arcs that flow consistently and believably onward, sometimes looping back to seasons gone by. The characters may move on but none of them ever forget. They remember the lessons they've learned--even as they sometimes have to learn them again. Seventh season Buffy calls Willow and Xander on a comment made five years earlier, and they--and we--remember.

Characters stumble and fall, are forgiven and rise again. Monsters sometimes aren't monsters at all and sometimes people are more monstrous than any monster could ever be. The blackest black hat will still have a redeeming smudge of white while the whitest white hat will have a touch of grey. Mistakes have consequences, sometimes devastating and far reaching, and people have to deal with them. Apologies are made, accepted and even the worst sins can be redeemed. And so they grow.

Then there's the laughter, "You have all the emotional maturity of a blueberry scone." "Can you vague that up for me?" "Who do you kill around here for fun?" "Hands! Hands in new places!" "It's a ritual sacrifice--with pie." "You made a bear! Undo it! Undo it!"

There are no tissue characters in the Jossverse. Even a character you will only see once will have layers. You will sense that they were there before you saw them and will continue after you turn off the set--except, of course, for the ones who end up blowing in the wind.

Then there are the faces...

...Buffy as she realizes she will have to kill Angel...Giles as he follows a trail of roses only to discover Jenny's body...Anya desperately trying to understand Joyce's death...Willow discovering Oz with Verucca...Spike as he sees the newly-resurrected Buffy descend the stairs...Dawn encountering the morning-after-making-up Tara and Willow...Angel as he realizes that the awakened-from-coma Cordy he's been talking to all day is a ghost...Wesley as he deciphers 'The Father Will Kill The Son..."

And a hundred, a thousand more moments just like those. I've watched each episode dozens of times and I never tire of them.

No other shows have ever affected me so deeply. Small wonder why.

[Rob]

KJackson said:

What for you made (and still makes) the Buffy and Angel TV shows so individually unique and compelling to you (despite both having finished their respective runs)?



Edited to Add:

Though KJackson doesn't tell you here, she is an Australian student taking a media course, and the survey she is conducting is part of a Buffy Studies project. So, take a moment and help her out!

I've often wondered what, precisely, draws me so much. There's been a great deal of television watching over the course of my life, but I've never felt so strongly for characters. I enjoy "The West Wing" and "Gilmore Girls" very much also, but never have I felt compelled to visit websites and discuss long-term analyses of episodes and characters.

A couple of surface reasons immediately come to mind:

1. Brilliant casting, which led to extraordinary acting by all concerned. Every performer in the Jossverse seems as if they were born to play these roles, and the more Joss asked of them, the more they delivered. There's never been a more talented ensemble anywhere in American television, and nearly all of them were in their 20's or less when the show began (Tony Head and James Marsters being the only exceptions among the main characters).

2. Crisp, intelligent writing. Even "bad" episodes are chock full of wonderful dialogue, and by the end of the series's run, there was no weak link in the chain. Everyone in Joss's writing stable was supremely talented, which is evidenced by their immediate employment on other shows. J.J. Abrams, most notably, knew exactly which cupboard to raid when Buffy and Angel ceased production.

Most of all, though, I'd have to go with:

3. Identifiable - yet ever-changing - characters and themes. You can enjoy Buffy for its sheer entertainment value, and that's fine...but if you choose to explore them, there are layers upon layers of deep thought and meaning in the journey. Events on these shows are rarely quite what they seem, right down to the basic metaphor of monsters/real life. Even more importantly, there are huge gaps left open for interpretation...but unlike poorly written shows, this is intentional. Joss WANTS you to decide who was right or wrong in a given situation...and often there is never one clear correct answer. Just like life.

Everyone has a favorite person or two on the show, and like all great art, this provides something of a psychological mirror. The Buffy characters one identifies with can lead to interesting (and occasionally mildly disturbing) conclusions about your own high school life, and how it has shaped you as an adult. Angel was more about where people are as fully formed adults, and the blind spots they've developed.

Or, to put it another way: "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" is about the internal demons that shape you while growing up, while "Angel" is about learning how to fight those demons off so that you can mature into the kind of adult you WANT to be. Characters don't always get there, but they never stop trying.

In short, you're trying to wear the cheese, as opposed to it wearing you. Themes don't get more relevant - or timeless - than that.


I hope this helps with your class. Sorry if it was too wordy. Sometimes I can't help myself.

[Linda]

Hi KJackson!

Just so's you know where I'm coming from: I worship at the altar of Joss's Very Big Brain, so assume the IMO.

Joss is a master writer and storyteller. He's not perfect, and is occasionally eeevvuuuullll & cruel & sadistic, but if he's given enough time and space (and sometimes even when he's not), his stories will have it all and have it great -- character, dialogue, comedy, drama, themes both large and small, metaphors both muscular and subtle, an unexpected twist of character/plot, did I mention comedy?, and at *least* one moment of emotional truth in any combination of laughter, sorrow, rage, delight, fear, anguish, jealousy, happiness, horror, loss, and did I mention laughter?

Joss, it seems to me, always begins with character. He may not always know where the plot is going, but I believe he knows who his characters are and who he wants them to become. And yet he remains willing to change his mind when circumstances intervene. (Spike's survival in Season Two comes to mind.) Joss will always try to bend the story to serve his characters rather than the other way around. And thanks to his finely tuned judgement of the capacity of his actors and his inner control freak concept of and affection for his characters, their continuity -- despite years of changing and growing and falling and dying -- is nothing short of breathtaking. Most dramatic before & after examples: Buffy, Willow, Spike, & Wesley. But even the most extreme character changes grew organically out of who they were, the things that happened to them and the choices they made.

Also of note in Jossverse writing (Joss's episodes in particular, though): playful language bendiness, humor, multiple layers of meaning, embedded character metastory, intelligence, humor, subtlety, self-awareness, goofiness, irony, wit, pop-cultural AND classical references, humor, respect for people (if not institutions), a strong grasp of the conventions/expectations of the genre being used for a particular scene (comedy, drama, action, horror, western, fantasy, tragedy, science fiction, musical, farce, ballet, turgid supernatural soap opera) with a whiplash subversion of same, and did I mention humor?

I also love the un-cynical nature of the messages behind the shows -- where love can save the day, the truth can set you free, the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world, and that forgiveness and redemption are possible, though not easy. And the more difficult lessons: good guys don't always win, shit bad things happen to good people with good intentions, sometimes ALL your choices suck but you still have to make 'em, there's always consequences, and you can never stop fighting for what you believe is right.

One more note about Joss's storytelling: he's got himself a pair of Big Brass Testes. He takes risks. I am forever grateful that I saw the BtVS Season Two finale unspoiled. The revelations of character and storytelling awed, delighted and shocked the hell out of me. The confluence of events -- the Buffy/Spike alliance, Giles' unintentional betrayal, Xander's lie, Angelus's destructive ritual, and Willow's restorative ritual -- all kept the hope, exhilaration and suspense going until the very end. And what an ending. It was the most devastating ending I *couldn't* imagine by a storyteller who was neither cynical nor nihilistic. And yet, Buffy's life went onwards and upwards (eventually) although the painful emotional damage of Season Two repercussed throughout the remainder of the series. (Please read Spring's Spikecentricity analyses for some of the subtler refer-backs & symbolism.)

I know that Joss is not the only person responsible for the final product we see onscreen. The actors do an absolutely WONDERFUL job as do the writers, producers, directors, stunt-folk, artists, technicians and craftsmen of Mutant Enemy -- although there were a few early rough spots. Most ME alumni now have strong non-Joss projects going on. But none of these projects have yet grabbed me the way the Jossverse did. **sigh**

Zowie. Long answer. To sum up: Joss = genius control freak storyteller.

Linda, having thought WAAAAYYY too much about this today.

P.S. And did I mention funny?

[Bluesman]

I entered the world of Joss Whedon late in the game, Buffy the Vampire Slayer's sixth season. Oh, I saw Toy Story. I was one of the fourteen people in the United States who saw and laughed through Joss Whedon's original Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the very different movie. But his T.V. series--in theory--left me cold.

I say in theory, because I never watched it until late in the game. I only do appointment television. So I never ran across it channel flipping; I never saw an advertisement for it. This changed after my wife discovered the show. She started talking about us getting cable (we get by with an antenna). She started acting perky about driving the two hours to visit my mother, because I later learned, my mother has cable and she could watch re-runs of Buffy.

I knew something was up after I caught her bubbling over a Buffy marathon. She actually dared say some of it compared to literature. Damnit! We're intellectuals. We read literature. And who the hell is this Spike she's crushing on (apparently, Angel is lame and his hair stands straight up)?

She had purchased the first Season DVD. I saw them on the table near our bedstand. I popped in the first DVD. I might as well see what she's watching. It'll help me make fun of her.

I cannot believe how quickly I got sucked into that series. It's seductively good. Joss Whedon wove together a net of living characters. They changed and developed over the course of the series. And he's one of those writers--like Elmore Leonard--who consistently churns out crisp, believable dialogue. His use of metaphor is superb. Especially in the first seasons, the storyline between Angel and Buffy made our hearts ache.

He understood that you have to like and empathize with the characters we ask into our homes every week. And I did. I grew to love Buffy like a kid sister. The interaction between Xander and Cordelia and later Xander and Anya, two minor characters, was incredibly moving.

Minor characters? Joss Whedon doesn't know what a bit character is. Its another strength of the show. If a character shows up more than a few times, he or she starts to develop depth and complexity. Look at the big Jock who first hassled Xander at the soda machine in Halloween. Look at how Joss developed this walk in character over the course of three seasons.

The dialogue, the metaphors, the rich characterization, the stories. The stories are great, moving from almost terrifying, to wickedly funny. Watch Something Blue and Hush to get a sense of the range of this show. And who has the talent to write Once More With Feeling and pull out those performances for a cast not hired for their musical abilities. I've seen attempts at musical shows before, but this one I actually enjoyed instead of walking out of the room and calling back, "Is it over yet?" I've watched that episode so many times.

Joss Whedon has a classic sense of what works. He also works in terms of morality. Buffy has such a strong sense of right and wrong. Her view of the world is often black and white. And I loved watching the struggles she went through trying to do the right thing. Agonizing, like in Ted, when she thought she had done the wrong thing.

I could say so much more, but if you read the posts above, you'll see much that I agree with about this show. My wife and I shared jointly our passion for this show. We watched it together after putting the kids to bed. We talked about it the next day. We analyzed it. Our children know so much about Buffy, despite the fact that we've never let them watch the show. After seven seasons of making terrific television more often than not, Joss Whedon left us a legacy we can enjoy for the rest of our lives.

Bluesman

[Karen]

KJackson said:

What for you made (and still makes) the Buffy and Angel TV shows so individually unique and compelling to you (despite both having finished their respective runs)?

Edited to Add:

Though KJackson doesn't tell you here, she is an Australian student taking a media course, and the survey she is conducting is part of a Buffy Studies project. So, take a moment and help her out!

Hi KJackson! Interesting question about my favorite subject.

Let's see. What compels me to watch Buffy and Angel reruns over all other TV offerings?

Why do I get up at 6 a.m., rush through my shower and try to catch my favorite parts of whatever episodes of Buffy or Angel FX are airing that morning?

Why did I feel so sad when FX messed with the schedule and Buffy no longer kept me company and entertained me after work while preparing supper and doing all those numerous little boring, but necessary rl chores?

Why did I feel like a part of my heart was ripped away when Buffy ended and Angel was cancelled?

It's because of the way Joss's fantastic storytelling asks questions about what it means to be human and delves into the mysteries of life. It's because these characters and the actors that portray them have burrowed their way into my psyche and heart.

Buffy and Angel continues to make me laugh and cry - sometimes both at once. And even though I have watched the episodes many times, they never fail to amuse and surprise me. I enjoy the layers and nuance of the characters and the little details that make every single scene captivating.

Although I watched Buffy and Angel before joining S3, the discussions with the S’cubies have increased my enjoyment of both programs tenfold, and that makes the Buffy experience unique for me.

ETA: Buffy is like chocolate. Life would be much emptier without it.

[Onjel]

Hi there!

First of all, what all of the above said, much more eloquently than I could ever say.

Second, I found the dialogue intelligent, witty, thought-provoking and heart-rending, most times all within a single episode.

I, too, came to be a fan late in the game. I chanced on a Buffy episode on FX one morning, and want to do anything besides go to work I watched both eps that aired that morning. I had seen the movie and found it campy and amusing, but had heard that the television show was sappy and took itself too seriously. I was more than pleasantly surprised, therefore, when I began to watch the television show in earnest.

The outward premise of the show can be seen as ridiculous, but it is the metaphor for life's lessons that grabs you. I was far from a teenager when I began watching the show, but was sucked in all the same, reacting to the emotional life lessons as though I was going through them myself, albeit with many years additional knowledge and experience. I can still remember what it was like to be in high school and college and then to finally break out on my own. He** I am still learning lessons. When we stop learning we are dead, after all.

It did not hurt that the acting on the show was and is superb. Those actors can emote, I am telling you.

The shows also had a great deal of humor and I personally feel that one's intellect is demonstrated by the quality of their humor. Joss and his writers are bright, indeed.

Finally, last but by no means least, I loved the girl to woman power aspect of it. Young girls have too few strong, intelligent (remember, Buffy aced her SAT exam), witty and independent role models. One of the reasons I find watching season 6 so difficult is the length of time it takes Buffy (basically the whole season) to retrieve her spunk and spirit, but for most of the show's run, she was empowered. That is not to say that the other characters were not. Each of them, in both Angel and BTVS were heroic at various times and each had his or her own unique strengths to bring to the group and complete it.

I hope this is not too late to help.