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Post by Lola m on Apr 17, 2006 7:30:40 GMT -5
Wow, lots of stuff in this episode. I'm with whoever said that they think of daleks like the fear demon. Killing machine: not scary. Maybe as a civilization scary, but individually, American actors playing the Americans? Or British with American accents? I can't usually tell. ;D Oooooh, nice one. Depending on the scene, I am right there with you sister. I blame Joss and his sexy wounding of characters. Didn't he?
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Post by Lola m on Apr 17, 2006 7:31:37 GMT -5
Stunning conversation between the Doctor and the Dalek.
We are the same. The writers have been playing with that idea ever since "Genesis of the Daleks". It may be that this season will resolve it. Whatever final act finished the Time War, the Doctor is responsible. He pushed the button, sending shockwaves through time and space, laying low higher species. He destroyed the Daleks, but took the Time Lords with them. The Doctor killed his entire race. Very interesting ep - all twisty and so on.
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Post by Lola m on Apr 17, 2006 7:32:57 GMT -5
Yeah, that's right up there with "this ship is unsinkable" and "at least it can't get worse". ;D Brainshare!! And eetah! It so got out. Now they're in for it. How do they know it isn't this incident that starts the final Time War? Or all the Time Wars? I mean, maybe everything is circular, ya know?
Interesting idea. From what I can tell, the Time Wars transcended time itself. Casualities of the wars were removed from all time and space. I actually like that better than a circular thing. It would seem logical for a Time War to be different with respect to Time.
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Post by Lola m on Apr 17, 2006 7:34:11 GMT -5
They are dead because of us. Oh!! She contaminated it. Woah. The woman you love. Weapons. Broken. Broken. Hair dryer. Why didn't I kill you? What am I? A Dalek with existential angst - I love it!!*laughs* Me, too. I think Sherman came up with the idea because, if any being knows who and what is, it's a Dalek. But if you take that certainty away, you get angst aplenty. ;D He explores this in more detail in his audio play Jubilee. Committing genocide against one's entire people is probably leads one to become a bit gloomy. Ya think?
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Post by Lola m on Apr 17, 2006 7:35:28 GMT -5
"Someone's collecting aliens. That makes you Exhibit A." Does that strike anyone else as an incautious thing to say? I mean, dude looks human. Maybe he could have passed. Passing as human. How demeaning. ;D **snicker**
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Post by Lola m on Apr 17, 2006 7:36:48 GMT -5
Still trying to work through my reactions to last night's episode. Thing is...I felt like it was leading somewhere it didn't go. I still do, sort of - it's leading to something bigger, later in the season. Which has partly to do with having been told over and over how great this episode was - it was going to be nearly impossible to live up to that hype, unless the writers were Joss. Right now, I'm watching primarily to see Christopher Eccleston act - he's wonderful, and I'd sit down to watch him (to use an already-overused cliche) read from the phone book. I'm not saying, incidentally, that I thought it was a bad episode - I didn't. I really enjoyed most of it. But I guess I feel that it suffered from a lack of the action that usually makes Doctor Who fun. The writers seem to think they can do "character development" or "action" but not both in the same episode. Well, we do see a Dalek kill 200 people (not all onscreen, admittedly, but the onscreen bodycount is higher than in any other epsiode of Doctor Who). I found the combat scenes quite action-packed. Have you rewatched the ep? #rofl1# Well, I wasn't gonna say it!
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Post by Lola m on Apr 17, 2006 7:38:18 GMT -5
That's right. They're all dead. Honestly. And I remind you again, Riff, that YOU can say that, having seen all there is to see. Myself, I haven't downloaded and watched any of the new episodes, so I have to judge based only on what I've seen, not on what I might guess will come later. And yeah, if one survived, others might have, but the episode was nonetheless trying to drive home the parallels between two beings who both at least believe (as we're supposed to) that they are the last of their kind, and so it was sad more than anything else. Actually, it was as usual for me - I found the Dalek far more sad than frightening. I expect if one was in my living room, it'd be the other way around, but on my television - I see a being who kills because it has no choice, because a madman decided to make it that way, and I remember that they started out as humanoids with free will. No Dalek since at least the first generation has had a choice about what it would be, and so they're victims just as much as the people they murder. The Doctor used to understand that, at least some of the time. Before the end of the worlds. There is a sadness about that. And I'm guessing wonder that it is part of the Doctor's anger. It's all mixed emotions and dealing (or not) with traumatic stuff and what not.
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Post by Rachael on Apr 17, 2006 8:41:16 GMT -5
And I remind you again, Riff, that YOU can say that, having seen all there is to see. Myself, I haven't downloaded and watched any of the new episodes, so I have to judge based only on what I've seen, not on what I might guess will come later. And yeah, if one survived, others might have, but the episode was nonetheless trying to drive home the parallels between two beings who both at least believe (as we're supposed to) that they are the last of their kind, and so it was sad more than anything else. Actually, it was as usual for me - I found the Dalek far more sad than frightening. I expect if one was in my living room, it'd be the other way around, but on my television - I see a being who kills because it has no choice, because a madman decided to make it that way, and I remember that they started out as humanoids with free will. No Dalek since at least the first generation has had a choice about what it would be, and so they're victims just as much as the people they murder. The Doctor used to understand that, at least some of the time. Before the end of the worlds. I think the ep is actually about free will (or the lack of it), and what a terrible thing it can be. It's an interesting question: if the Daleks have no free will, then do they deserve our sympathy? Yes, they were created by a madman, but having been created, they are what they are - merciless and genocidal. Do we pity them for that, or do we see them as an irredemable threat? Ah, but that's the thing - I don't see it as an either/or, necessarily. They can be both - as the Dalek in this episode seemed to be. It wasn't irredeemable, necessarily - but it was alone, and with no one to teach it to be something other than what it was programmed, it wanted to die rather than be what it had become. Now, THAT was a good Dalek episode. I generally prefer the Davros episodes, because even though he's a madman, he at least has free will. Which makes him far more interesting, to me, than the Daleks. Plus, in that episode, the Doctor confronts the question I've always had: is it acceptable to destroy an entire species simply because that species' entire purpose for existence is to destroy all others? Or do they have a right to exist, because they exist? It didn't have much of a chance, though, did it? I expect that many human minds, having the sort of awakening that it was having, would be in danger of self-destruction. I wasn't convinced that its death was necessary or inevitable. I mean, there's another way to look at it: the Dalek was suddenly aware of what it is and found the existence of a Dalek intolerable. Trapped forever in that killing machine, unable to be anything other than what you were programmed to be - Rose's "influence" might have made it feel that being a Dalek was horrible, and the conflict between the two sets of values is what killed it. It would be hard for any being to imagine what to do now that it wasn't really a Dalek anymore.
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Post by Riff on Apr 17, 2006 11:12:17 GMT -5
Interesting idea. From what I can tell, the Time Wars transcended time itself. Casualities of the wars were removed from all time and space. I actually like that better than a circular thing. It would seem logical for a Time War to be different with respect to Time. A Time War is logical? You've got a better grasp of this than me. ;D
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Post by Riff on Apr 17, 2006 11:13:44 GMT -5
*laughs* Me, too. I think Sherman came up with the idea because, if any being knows who and what is, it's a Dalek. But if you take that certainty away, you get angst aplenty. ;D He explores this in more detail in his audio play Jubilee. Committing genocide against one's entire people probably leads one to become a bit gloomy. Ya think? *nods wisely* IMO. ;D
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Post by Riff on Apr 17, 2006 11:17:58 GMT -5
And I remind you again, Riff, that YOU can say that, having seen all there is to see. Myself, I haven't downloaded and watched any of the new episodes, so I have to judge based only on what I've seen, not on what I might guess will come later. And yeah, if one survived, others might have, but the episode was nonetheless trying to drive home the parallels between two beings who both at least believe (as we're supposed to) that they are the last of their kind, and so it was sad more than anything else. Actually, it was as usual for me - I found the Dalek far more sad than frightening. I expect if one was in my living room, it'd be the other way around, but on my television - I see a being who kills because it has no choice, because a madman decided to make it that way, and I remember that they started out as humanoids with free will. No Dalek since at least the first generation has had a choice about what it would be, and so they're victims just as much as the people they murder. The Doctor used to understand that, at least some of the time. Before the end of the worlds. There is a sadness about that. And I'm guessing wonder that it is part of the Doctor's anger. It's all mixed emotions and dealing (or not) with traumatic stuff and what not. I think that's right. He has dealt harshly with the Daleks before, but only becuase he sees them a destructive force. Now, as they say, it's personal.
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Post by Riff on Apr 17, 2006 12:27:16 GMT -5
I think the ep is actually about free will (or the lack of it), and what a terrible thing it can be. It's an interesting question: if the Daleks have no free will, then do they deserve our sympathy? Yes, they were created by a madman, but having been created, they are what they are - merciless and genocidal. Do we pity them for that, or do we see them as an irredemable threat? You may well be right, but it's impossible to say, one way or the other. What makes this issue so difficult is that, by the end of the episode, the thing inside that casing isn't actually a Dalek. If it had survived longer, who can say what it may have become? But I suppose that there was the constraint of reaching a resolution within a 40-minute episode. You're right, actually. It is a rather rushed and unsatisfying end to a complex theme. Until the new series, every Dalek story after "Genesis" has actually been a Davros story. To be honest, I got sick of the sight of him, because while he's there the Daleks are reduced to nothing but boring drones. That's not because I don't think he's an interesting character - in "Genesis" he absolutely steals the show, brilliantly written and with a mesemrising and focused performance by Michael Wisher, one of the highlights of the entire series. It's just that the Daleks in their own right are at least equally interesting. They reached their height, writing-wise, in the Second Doctor stories "Power of the Daleks" and "Evil of the Daleks". Human fascists are, well, human. But the Daleks are the refined sentiments of fascism personified. Even today, those stories are powerful. The Third Doctor Dalek stories are awful, just there to boost the ratings. And then came Davros. Since the DVD of "Genesis" has come out, I've just re-watched it. It's amazing how well it stands up after 30 years. War-torn Skaro is effectively realised with the same budget as a cheap soap opera. Amazing. The Daleks are shadowy figures until the final minutes when, interestingly, they start to make decisions for themselves. It seems hard to believe that Davros would not have thought of this, so one can only assume that they break their programming to become even worse than what Davros intended. That's just my take on it, but it does raise some questions about free will. Davros is destroyed by his own creation,and that should really have been the end of him. Again, it's no that I don't like him. The excellent audio play "Davros" (in which there are no Daleks, wisely) delves deep into his character, motivations, and backstory. It is revealed that he himself is so driven that he cannot change. Perhaps he has no free will himself - he did make the Daleks in his own image. In "Genesis" the Doctor tells him he should make the Daleks a force for good, to which Davros replies, "I could do it." But we know he won't. Rewatching the story, one can see he is a malevolent, single-minded and wizened intelligence. It's impossible to imagine him behaving any differently from the way he does. IMO. Yes, anomie - a change in one's circumstances and self so fundamental that life is suddenly without meaning. Durkheim believed it was a major cause of suicide, which may be relevant here. There is a lot of shorthand in the ep (necessarily). I think they were trying to suggest that the greatest tragedy of the Daleks is that they are locked in permanent hatred. Another theme, as you rightly point out, is imprisonment. The display cases, the vault, the cage, torture, the Dalek's casing, and the roles that we all become trapped in - it's essentially about being in prison. Lots of interesting questions!
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Post by Riff on Apr 17, 2006 12:31:26 GMT -5
You know, I really should explain about this play “Jubilee”. If you think you might ever listen to it and do not want to be spoiled at all, then do not read the next few posts. Rob Sherman, the writer of “Dalek” has written some excellent audio plays for the Sixth and Eighth Doctors. The Sixth Doctor (who, I’m happy to say, has been re-imagined since his tenure on television) features in some of the best plays. He has Peri and Mel as companions, but in some stories is accompanied by the well-written 50-something history professor Evelyn Smythe. In “Jubilee”, Sherman is able to examine ideas that he could only paint with a broad brush in “Dalek”. He looks at the existential issue of free will and our inability to learn from history. “Jubilee” is set in an alternate 2003. The TARDIS is caught in a time paradox (one of its own making, but they don’t call them paradoxes for nothing ) The Doctor and his companion land in both 1903 and 2003 simultaneously. We see their 2003 selves as they find themselves in the new English Empire. In 1903 they had fought off a Dalek invasion (the Daleks had used the time paradox to travel to that point – yes, they are part of the paradox in the first place, but it is a paradox ;D). Now they see the result. The invasion struck Britain first (where else?). After the Doctor successfully fought off the Daleks, the English used Dalek technology to begin and win the First (and only) World War, subjugating all other nations on Earth. The society of 2003 is revoltingly fascistic, a place where anyone not English is humiliated and oppressed and women are constantly demeaned as stupid and ugly. It’s very nasty. The memory of the Daleks functions as a source of bogeymen and one dimensional bad guys for entertainment/propaganda. The real-world Dalek mania of the 1960s is here given a nightmarish slant, as the image of the Daleks is used for merchandising and control of the public consciousness. Rochester: Anything with a Dalek on sells millions… Evelyn: You’ve taken something wholly evil and merchandised it? Rochester: The children have got have their fun, have they not? The Doctor: And if they can learn of the superiority of their race at the same time- Rochester: Quite so! Quite so! Entertaining, lucrative, and instructive. One message here is that it might not be such a good idea to make fun of fascism. The Doctor: But this what history does. The winning side distorts their enemy, belittles them and mocks them for fun. Evelyn: Not like this. Never like this. The Doctor: What the people here have done to the Daleks is not so very different to what yours did to the Nazis. The token villains of war movies and spy novels
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Post by Rachael on Apr 17, 2006 12:41:36 GMT -5
So, about Davros: that's the thing, really. The writing is what reduced the Daleks into automatons. If they really are genetically engineered to kill everything "other", then that's the fault of the writers - they have no free will. Which is a drawback, really, in a species that's supposed to be really scary. The Borg had a similar failing - but they succeeded in being truly scary because they didn't want to kill you...they wanted to make you like them. The Daleks fail, IMO, for me, exactly because they're killing machines with no other agenda but the extermination of all non-Dalek life-forms. I mean...scary, yes, if you're confronted with them, but far less scary as a literary tool, especially if you lack the cultural experience with fascism to make them as chilling as they're clearly intended to be. Intellectually, they're scary, if I let myself think of the logical outcome of the Daleks actually pulling off their "kill everything else" plan. A universe populated with nothing but Daleks? Ugh. Where they fail is in execution. The reason that "Genesis" is successful, for me, is because it's the place in the story where the tragedy of the Daleks could be averted. A race is wiped out and replaced by...that. Ick. All the other stories (those I've seen; you must remember that our access on this side of the pond to pre-Jon Pertwee Doctor Who is a bit limited by our local PBS affiliates) involve Daleks as a done deal - and never all that successful in carrying out their universe-domination plans. Now, this episode was frustrating maybe BECAUSE I know there's a story out there that might change my mind, if I'd seen it. The notion of two entire races being wiped out (one race that I'm rather attached to, as well) because of some sort of Dalek aggression? Now there's a story. But they won't let me SEE it. It's starting to bug me.
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Post by Riff on Apr 17, 2006 12:42:02 GMT -5
But, in the Tower of London, the last Dalek alive is kept imprisoned, tortured and only allowed out once a year to be jeered at by the Nuremburg-like crowds. It has not received orders for 100 years and begins to suffer from an existential angst that verges on psychosis. Nicholas Briggs, who is now the voice of the Daleks, brilliantly realises the creature’s desperation and insanity. It really is scary.
Dalek: Today, I was meant to die. I was not afraid. I had no function left. But now they have given me a gun. They have given me a chance for life.
Evelyn: What will you do?
Dalek: I do not know. I may kill all the humans. I may kill no one at all. I may kill just you. I was never meant to make choices. Evelyn Smyth, remove my gun.
Evelyn: Why would you want me to do that?
Dalek: Remove the gun and you remove the choice. I would be unable to give orders, follow orders. All I could do is die.
Evelyn: And you’ll just let me do that? Take away your only means of defence?
Dalek: I do not know. I might kill you. I might not be able to help it. I MIGHT WANT TO!
The comedy Daleks of English Empire culture are like this:
“Today the Earth, tomorrow the entire univerrrrrse!!! [evil laughter]”
“We are the Daleks! Would you like to play with us? Would you like to play with us?”
“Would you like to hear our Dalek song?”
This is heavily contrasted with the Hannibal Lecter-esque Dalek in the Tower, such as in this scene:
Dalek: You kill Lamb.
Farrow: What?
Dalek: You have a knife. Kill Lamb. I need to make sure you can, for the sake of our alliance.
Farrow: You do not understand. I have people killed; I do not do it myself.
Dalek: Exterminate him, or I shall exterminate you.
Lamb: Please, Farrow, you cannot do this.
Lamb: Shut up. Do not make this any harder for me. [he stabs Lamb]
Dalek: Push the knife deeper into the throat.
This scene also springs to mind:
Dalek: Cut Farrow’s head off, like they did with all traitors here.
Evelyn: You know the history of the Tower?
Dalek: I AM THE HISTORY OF THE TOWER! CUT IT OFF!
Whe the Doctor is invited to talk to the Jubilee Day crowds about the Daleks (to reinforce their role as social propaganda) he isn’t exactly tactful:
The Doctor: I shall talk to you about evil. A long time ago, a race evolved which had an obsession with power. Power was at the centre of all its thoughts. How to conquer, how to tyrannise. They could only define themselves by the lives they had taken or the slaves they had collected.
The crowd: Death to the Daleks!
The Doctor: Listen to me! The Daleks were genetically engineered to see all life as a threat. Human beings are different. Humans have a choice. The race I was describing was not the Daleks. What excuse do you have? … What happened a hundred years ago must be commemorated – as a lesson to the human race. But you learned the wrong things. If you belittle evil, if you trivialise it to sell washing powder and soap, if you pretend it isn’t there, then it will happen again. It has happened again. What you have become is the Daleks. All my lifetimes I have protected you. Maybe I made a mistake.
Where “Dalek” dealt with parallels between the Dalek and the Doctor, “Jubilee” touches on the far-less comfortable parallels between the Daleks and us.
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