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Post by Lola m on Jul 8, 2004 6:05:05 GMT -5
After the credits, Back in the library. Buffy paces, Xander and Willow sit in chairs next to each other doing the tennis match heads to watch Buffy pace. Giles emerges from the book cage. We'll see tennis match heads in the cheerleader scene when Buffy tosses one of the girls, too. Very cheerleady, seems to me. And Buffy's doing the typical kid "pay attention to me until I decide I don't want you to and then go away" dance. Talking about how much time Amy's mom spends with her (which, after we know what's up - creepy!) but we all know there are many more times she'll want Joyce to back off. Makes me wonder about Amy at the end of the show. Her dad has come back and is being very very involved / controlling in her life and she is liking it a lot. But I bet that gets old kinda fast for her - maybe a factor in why she starts down the path she does later? Along with the warped way her mom treated her, of course. I seem to recall from DVD commentary that they built the set a room at a time, over time. So, yeah. Probably other rooms not built yet. Thinking of her early speeches this way makes me feel better about the idea that mom was in Amy all that time. Oh, yeah. Cordy's scary. Yeah, the obvious "spooky" cliches are more jolting to me seeing them now. 'Cuz they'll move so quickly to just making fun of this kind of obvious "be scared" images. Joss has much better "be scared" stuff to show us later. Heee hee. But also, anyone else think that Cordy was also being controlled or confused, too? 'Cuz that wasn't all just having trouble seeing. Yep. We see examples of both Xander's and Willow's later issues right from the get go. Good lightbulb, becca. Good comments all. I'll be back. Lola |
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Post by KMInfinity on Jul 8, 2004 7:30:28 GMT -5
I thought both parents got slammed now and then - <snip> To me, it seems to be about the effects of loving and the lack of loving, and everyone does some of both. I agree. I always thought Buffy's relationship with her mom was one of the more "normal" things in her life. In general, I think the series makes the point that parenting is a really tough job, rather than presenting a Freudian(?) perspective that one's neuroses are the result of one's parents, or even worse, that the whole parenting process is fated to be dysfunctional at best. I'm especially thinking about how tough Buffy had it trying to parent Dawn, after Joyce's death. And now that I’m caught up on the thread, lots of good points made on pages 2 and 3. I've often thought of the Joyce/Buffy dynamic as rather similar to how some parent's react to finding out their child is gay. I never noticed this, but when it's pointed out it's so obvious! BUFFY: I will still have time to fight the forces of evil, okay? I just wanna have a life, I wanna do something normal. Something safe.LOL! As soon as she said these words, I knew that something bad was going to come out of cheerleading… Cheerleading is evil…(no offense to any cheerleaders here, my sister was the head cheerleader in HS and we love each other greatly, yadayada….) I just loved the dichotomy of slaying/cheering. One so essential and meaningful, the other so……….okay, I’ll leave that one alone.  That line Buffy says, “I just wanna have a life….normal….safe…” Unexpectedly gave me a whole wave of emotion, thinking about what was to come. One of the things I’m trying to think about as I rewatch the series is how it fits together as a whole, organic thing. This line, coming in the 3rd episode just resonated all the way to “Chosen.” Sheer genius, that Joss. Buffy's kitchen full of many things. All kitcheny things. My kitchen lacks the kind of things that would make it kitcheny on TV. It has a fridge. And a microwave. And a whole lot of empty Sugar Puffs boxes cause they had a Buffy promotion and, er, I can make myself throw away perfectly good pictures of Spike just cause they're on cereal packets... Kitchen things look expensive. But American TV kitchens usually look expensive, cause American appliances seem to be built bigger than UK ones. The fridge looks twiddly. Something complicated in the door? So to me the kitchen is saying, has plenty money, and nice area to eat & socialise. Actually I read that using the kitchen to socialise is apparently based on social class. So Cordelia type people wouldnt hang out in the kitchen even though they are teenagers. But Buffy is in the kitchen before we see her other rooms. Bedroom last week, kitchen this week. Which leads me to wonder if they were building this stuff as they used it. Cause of course later they had a whole house to hang out in, but it had to get built sometime, right? Unless they actually went somewhere. I lack knowing. Lola, I’m pretty sure you’re right. I think they used a real house for exteriors, and built a whole house with all the interiors for use later. I don’t know if they built it all at once or started with the kitchen, but it makes sense from a budget POV that they did start with a sketchy kitchen and developed from there. And Becca, I’ve been meaning to tell you how much I appreciate your powers of observation and especially your color focus reviews. |
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Post by Sara on Jul 8, 2004 7:46:28 GMT -5
LOL! And now I have the visual, along with the corsets, heels, and fishnet stockings. ;D ;D After thinking about it, I agree, Giles not the sideline kind of guy - but kind of a cheerleader, in that he cheers Buffy on in her slayer duties. I have nieces and cousins who are cheerleaders, and it is more about the dancing and learning the cheers - and of course, being in the spotlight that they want. Incidental, is the actual cheering on of the teams. Loved in this episode how Amy's mother was destroyed by the mirror. An instrument of vanity.Awesome observation, Karen--I never considered it from that angle before. And kudos to be for once again providing us with so many interesting insights and observations to chew on. I sit in awe of your episode posts. |
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Post by Lola m on Jul 8, 2004 18:39:52 GMT -5
<snip> 'macho man', funny. Cause thats exactly what she isnt and most hero types are. "Y'know, there are just some things about being a Vampire Slayer that the older generation..." not just that mom, that the older generation. Presumably, doesnt understand. Giles issues? Yep, that's my guess. Also, that sentence is really the moment you know something is wrong with Buffy. 'Cuz saying Vampire Slayer to mom is just not something she'd be doing if she were in her right mind. Makes me think of an ideas from the "Reconstruction / Reunification / etc." fanfic stories. In there, Giles talks about how Willow is able to do such amazing spells, but also such amazing goofs with spells, because she looks at them like computer code. Takes them apart and puts them together with other bits of spell "code". Nice catch, be. I know. That ending has such a . . . Twilight Zone, or Night Gallery or something feel. Lots of interesting points among the bibbling. And the bibbling is fun, too.  Lola |
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jul 8, 2004 22:04:32 GMT -5
Amy-mom is sitting in front of a cage while explaining what her mom did to her. Big twirly bird cage.
Giles is first seen standing in front of the book cage, and again in this episode seen walking out of the book cage.
So theres a whole caged thing.
plus Amy's mom locked up the fridge or locked herself upstairs. Restrictions, locks.
This episode is about older people trying to live through their teenagers
Amy's mom and Amy, obviously
but the episode is about the Buffy-Giles relationship
and Giles is supposed to live out his calling through Buffy, Watcher only being able to act via Slayer. Giles has always been told he is *only* allowed to act that way.
His whole life he has been training to fight the forces of darkness, and yet he has to wait for some teenage girl to turn up before he can actually do it.
Giles is caged by that training and expectation
But the book cage door is open, and Giles breaks as many locks as Amy's mom puts on
so Giles can step out of that restricted role
and act for himself
Amy's mom is all trying to further trap people, lock them in, lock herself in to a repeat loop of the past even. And she ends up trapped in that one moment, unable to break out or move on.
Giles is very much concerned with the past but he also breaks down a lot of doors, makes changes, takes an active role.
His initial attitude, that Buffy shouldnt have her own thing but just do what he has been trained for, relaxes hugely as they go along, and he does more for himself.
I'm a bit unhappy with the phrasing in this but basically thats what cages and this episode say to me.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jul 8, 2004 22:09:41 GMT -5
And Buffy's doing the typical kid "pay attention to me until I decide I don't want you to and then go away" dance. Talking about how much time Amy's mom spends with her (which, after we know what's up - creepy!) but we all know there are many more times she'll want Joyce to back off. Makes me wonder about Amy at the end of the show. Her dad has come back and is being very very involved / controlling in her life and she is liking it a lot. But I bet that gets old kinda fast for her - maybe a factor in why she starts down the path she does later? Along with the warped way her mom treated her, of course. yup to all of that Buffy is still rather self centered around her mom. Still the baby there. but also being the cute baby at Giles at least to start with engage by annoying, manipulate through pouting, expect them to be there when she needs them and not there when she doesnt. Giles is actually a lot more convenient like that, even if he does represent the whole burden of slayerhood thing. yeah, confusion, she lacks all the attitude you'd expect her to put on, just gets all dazed, doesnt seem to notice anything wrong until she is all blind, doesnt modify her behaviour to account for it. Nasty spell. |
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jul 8, 2004 22:11:05 GMT -5
And Becca, I’ve been meaning to tell you how much I appreciate your powers of observation and especially your color focus reviews. thanks I'm never sure I'm not just going a bit too far so its nice when people actually like the stuff I come up with |
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jul 8, 2004 22:14:22 GMT -5
Yep, that's my guess. Also, that sentence is really the moment you know something is wrong with Buffy. 'Cuz saying Vampire Slayer to mom is just not something she'd be doing if she were in her right mind. Yup. Very. Especially since thats the fantasy that got her locked up before. Exactly. And its like she expects to be able to call on vastly powerful supernatural beings as if they were computer subroutines. Computers have no agenda of their own, however oddly they act. Most of the spells we see Willow use call on deities or spirits, and they do have their own agenda. So treating them like computers is just vastly unwise. |
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Post by Kate (K8) on Jul 9, 2004 12:46:13 GMT -5
Amy-mom is sitting in front of a cage while explaining what her mom did to her. Big twirly bird cage. Giles is first seen standing in front of the book cage, and again in this episode seen walking out of the book cage. So theres a whole caged thing. plus Amy's mom locked up the fridge or locked herself upstairs. Restrictions, locks. This episode is about older people trying to live through their teenagers Amy's mom and Amy, obviously but the episode is about the Buffy-Giles relationship and Giles is supposed to live out his calling through Buffy, Watcher only being able to act via Slayer. Giles has always been told he is *only* allowed to act that way. His whole life he has been training to fight the forces of darkness, and yet he has to wait for some teenage girl to turn up before he can actually do it. Giles is caged by that training and expectation But the book cage door is open, and Giles breaks as many locks as Amy's mom puts on so Giles can step out of that restricted role and act for himself Amy's mom is all trying to further trap people, lock them in, lock herself in to a repeat loop of the past even. And she ends up trapped in that one moment, unable to break out or move on. Giles is very much concerned with the past but he also breaks down a lot of doors, makes changes, takes an active role. His initial attitude, that Buffy shouldnt have her own thing but just do what he has been trained for, relaxes hugely as they go along, and he does more for himself. I'm a bit unhappy with the phrasing in this but basically thats what cages and this episode say to me. Lots of interesting insights in this thread. Definitelely got a trapped/hidden theme from this ep. Too add to your list: * Amy's mum is trapped in the trophy *Xander seemed, for a while, trapped by his nervousness over asking Buffy out and Willow still hides what she feels for him *Joyce tries to hide a particular statue but buffy goes to look anyway *Some of the museum stuff is trapped in the box until Buffy opens it *Amy's mum tries to hide the fact she's not Amy by acting like her? (unless it is just the writing) * Buffy doen't hide the vampire slayer thing from her mum like usual *The scoobies try to hide the witch test they are doing and the reversal spell from Amy *Everyone is trapped by time (Unless you have a spell like that one you can't go back). Joyce thinks she can't understand Buffy because of the age difference. I think there was others but I can't remember right now. Question: Why did Amy's mum end up in the trophy thing when the spell meant "the dark place will have her soul!". Trophy cabinet/showing off=bad? |
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jun 17, 2005 20:45:32 GMT -5
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Post by Lola m on Jun 21, 2005 21:46:17 GMT -5
You know, until you mentioned it here, I never really noticed how the human villians tend to get themselves killed or vanished. They only bring out the other possibility when it will be making another plot point. Like Warren and Willow, or Faith and the Mayor's assistant. Huh. Thanks for that insight! Really enjoyed your two points about the Giles' cheerleading conversation and what it says about the role of the slayer. First, when you mentioned Buffy as the slayer who will "challenge authority and question the status quo" I really loved how you followed that idea all the way out - not just as demonstrated in her falling out with the Watchers Council or so on, but that this is the "character trait that will ultimately lead to the activation of all the Potentials as her lasting legacy". Excellent point! As is the idea that this is an early (and less dark than the Faith arc) way to explore who is able to set limits on the Slayer's power. I know that becca has made some intriguing arguments in favor of the Watcher's rather heavy handed way of dealing with slayers as perhaps justified because of this need to have some control over a superpowered individual. Nice examples of continuity you mention. I also love those little bits that a fan can notice (like the repeating teacher and Joyce not at all interested in being 16 again).  So cool to read your thoughts on this ep! Lola |
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Post by jeff on Apr 1, 2007 9:18:22 GMT -5
Giles "why would someone want to hurt Cordelia"
The first episode that does not deal with Vamps. Witchcraft, I wonder if Joss and the crew knew just how much witch's would play a role in this series later on down the line.
And hey, Little ole Amy, Still kicking (ok really bad pun, considering she has no feet now) around in season 8.
I find it funny that The Girl that has the superpower was singing "I want to be a macho macho Man." Funny.
This episode shows us the vast difference between Joyce not understanding 16 year olds and not wanting to be 16 again. Than Amy's mom, who wants to be 16 again so bad that she would swap bodies to relive her glory days.
Line of the episode for me Cordelia - "ohh , those grapes are sour."
Willow - "Because the have met her."
Loved this line.
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