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Post by beccaelizabeth on Aug 5, 2004 5:09:02 GMT -5
I think it's unfair to compare both attemps with each other. Xander was a victim here, he had no control over himself. Spike did. But, Spike was pushed to the point of using violence. hyena-Xander was considered to be Xander overwhelmed by the hyena but vampire-Spike was never considered to be Spike overwhelmed by the vampire demon William, the original inhabitant of the body, had no control over himself once the demon moved in. But Spike was seen (saw himself) to be that demon. So when the demon does things Spike does things. So, in that sense, Spike had control over himself. But flip side, that Spike body was acting under mystical influence for the whole time they knew it. But got no credit for not doing what the demon told it to (feed on people etc)
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 5, 2004 5:26:05 GMT -5
I think it's unfair to compare both attemps with each other. Xander was a victim here, he had no control over himself. Spike did. But, Spike was pushed to the point of using violence. I was looking at it this way: Xander was a victim of hyena possession Willliam was a victim of demon possession (Dru's victim) Neither party had control over himself. What I mean is: Hyena-Xander = Spike Regular-Xander = William, or souled Spike (Spike with the ability to counteract the demon inside) Also similar was the fact that both Hyena-Xander and unsouled-Spike had aspects of the interests and personality of Xander & William. Xander's interest in Buffy is twisted up by his demon possession - he is Xander, but a Xander who thinks raping Buffy is a good idea. This is exactly the same with Spike. It wasn't JUST the hyena demon doing it , and it wasn't JUST the vampire demon doing it. Also notice the similarities between the things they say to Buffy - both say things about how Buffy needs to admit her true feelings to herself. I think Xander's reaction to the attempted rape by Spike is in part brought on by his own guilt. He never admits to Buffy that he consciously attempted to rape her, and that he remembers doing it. A point is made of this, at the end of The Pack - and I think this also points to Xander feeling underlying guilt. Anyhow - I thought it was nearly, and deliberately, exactly the same. Two guys who have feelings for Buffy have them twisted by demon-possession into a violent outcome. Both felt "pushed to the point of using violence" - both felt that Buffy simply wouldn't pay attention to them or their feelings any other way. Both were making a decision I don't believe either would have made under similar circumstances, had they been free of the demon.
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Post by Lissa on Aug 5, 2004 9:00:37 GMT -5
hyena-Xander was considered to be Xander overwhelmed by the hyena but vampire-Spike was never considered to be Spike overwhelmed by the vampire demon William, the original inhabitant of the body, had no control over himself once the demon moved in. But Spike was seen (saw himself) to be that demon. So when the demon does things Spike does things. So, in that sense, Spike had control over himself. But flip side, that Spike body was acting under mystical influence for the whole time they knew it. But got no credit for not doing what the demon told it to (feed on people etc) Spike = Demon Ensouled Spike = William (with a the demon inside him). What do mean with mystical influence.
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Post by Lissa on Aug 5, 2004 9:12:36 GMT -5
I was looking at it this way: Xander was a victim of hyena possession Willliam was a victim of demon possession (Dru's victim) Neither party had control over himself. What I mean is: Hyena-Xander = Spike Regular-Xander = William, or souled Spike (Spike with the ability to counteract the demon inside) Also similar was the fact that both Hyena-Xander and unsouled-Spike had aspects of the interests and personality of Xander & William. Xander's interest in Buffy is twisted up by his demon possession - he is Xander, but a Xander who thinks raping Buffy is a good idea. This is exactly the same with Spike. It wasn't JUST the hyena demon doing it , and it wasn't JUST the vampire demon doing it. Also notice the similarities between the things they say to Buffy - both say things about how Buffy needs to admit her true feelings to herself. I think Xander's reaction to the attempted rape by Spike is in part brought on by his own guilt. He never admits to Buffy that he consciously attempted to rape her, and that he remembers doing it. A point is made of this, at the end of The Pack - and I think this also points to Xander feeling underlying guilt. Anyhow - I thought it was nearly, and deliberately, exactly the same. Two guys who have feelings for Buffy have them twisted by demon-possession into a violent outcome. Both felt "pushed to the point of using violence" - both felt that Buffy simply wouldn't pay attention to them or their feelings any other way. Both were making a decision I don't believe either would have made under similar circumstances, had they been free of the demon. I'm sorry, but to say that Xander consciously attempted to rape Buffy is not true. He was consciously aware of it. Two different things. The first makes him guilty the other makes him a victim who feels guilty. Xander was possessed; it was not even Xander who did it. I find it extremely unfair towards Xander to compare Spike's mistake with Xander's possesion.
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Post by fredspuffed on Aug 5, 2004 10:21:11 GMT -5
I think its unfair that it is not mentioned enough at least from what I see.
Xanders animal insticts were taking over and he was aware of his actions even though buffy and him really do not seem to talk about. or do they later on? another season perhaps ---
just had to get that out there and they are very similar
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 5, 2004 10:34:18 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but to say that Xander consciously attempted to rape Buffy is not true. He was consciously aware of it. Two different things. The first makes him guilty the other makes him a victim who feels guilty. Xander was possessed; it was not even Xander who did it. I find it extremely unfair towards Xander to compare Spike's mistake with Xander's possesion. It was Xander who did it - Xander with a demon inside. William is possesed by a demon as well. William with a demon inside attacked Buffy. Xander with a demon inside attacked Buffy. How is it different? Regular Xander's interest in Buffy played a part in Possessed Xander's attack. It wasn't all the hyena-demon. It was Xander AND the hyena demon doing that. Xander would never have done it, without the hyena demon inside. The hyena demon, in someone else who had no interest in Buffy, wouldn't have done it either. Both the human side and the demon side were needed. Spike's human-side's interest in Buffy played a part in Spike's attack. It wasn't all the vampire demon. It was his human side and his vampire demon doing that. Same as with Xander. It's very much the same, and I don't think I'm the one making the comparison. I think I'm noticing the comparison being made by the writers. I think the scenes are deliberately similar. Listen to what Xander says to Buffy, and how similar it is to what Spike says.
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Post by Lissa on Aug 5, 2004 11:00:14 GMT -5
I think its unfair that it is not mentioned enough at least from what I see. Xanders animal instincts were taking over and he was aware of his actions even though buffy and him really do not seem to talk about. or do they later on? another season perhaps --- just had to get that out there and they are very similar In the pack they say this: Well, apparently there's a, a sect of animal worshipers known as Primals. They believe that humanity, uh, consciousness, uh, the soul, is a, is a perversion, a dilution of spirit. Uh, to them the animal state is holy. They are able, through trans-possession, to, to, um, draw the spirit of certain animals into themselves. Buffy: And then they started acting like hyenas. Giles: Well, only the most predatory of animals are, are of interest to the Primals, so, uh, yes, yes, that would fit, yes. Buffy: So, what happens to the person once the spirit's in them? ** Soul = consciousness. Remark to this: Soul is not considered a separate entity here, they did that after season 2. In becoming I and II Angelus is still called Angel. Spirit = the animal essence. It has been at least been suggested many times that a vampire is also a animal essence. (Willow is considered to be the Spirit too). noticed that only the most primary of animals are interested. And Xander's was the alpha: the strongest of them. *** In harvast they say this: Xander: We've gotta get in there before Jesse does something stupider that usual. Giles: You listen to me! Jesse is dead! You have to remember that when you see him, you're not looking at your friend. You're looking at the thing that killed him. *** So, Spike has nothing left with William. William is simply dead. And there is nothing said about Spike with a soul is William. Okay, conscious is a strange notion. Raises questions about the strenght of souls and what it exactly is. But, to come back to HyenaXander. I admit that's Xander with an animal spirit inside who took over the control over his conscious/soul. Still, I have the strong feeling of unfairness towards Xander by the writers. Especially I always considered Xander to have a strong soul/conscious.
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Post by Lissa on Aug 5, 2004 11:08:00 GMT -5
It was Xander who did it - Xander with a demon inside. William is possesed by a demon as well. William with a demon inside attacked Buffy. Xander with a demon inside attacked Buffy. How is it different? Regular Xander's interest in Buffy played a part in Possessed Xander's attack. It wasn't all the hyena-demon. It was Xander AND the hyena demon doing that. Xander would never have done it, without the hyena demon inside. The hyena demon, in someone else who had no interest in Buffy, wouldn't have done it either. Both the human side and the demon side were needed. Spike's human-side's interest in Buffy played a part in Spike's attack. It wasn't all the vampire demon. It was his human side and his vampire demon doing that. Same as with Xander. It's very much the same, and I don't think I'm the one making the comparison. I think I'm noticing the comparison being made by the writers. I think the scenes are deliberately similar. Listen to what Xander says to Buffy, and how similar it is to what Spike says. I still don't see it's Xander who did it. Point is that a possession means that something else takes control. Like Buffy and Angelus had been.
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Post by Lissa on Aug 5, 2004 11:14:31 GMT -5
It's very much the same, and I don't think I'm the one making the comparison. I think I'm noticing the comparison being made by the writers. I think the scenes are deliberately similar. Listen to what Xander says to Buffy, and how similar it is to what Spike says. I'm not accussing you of making the comparison. I fully realize that the writers did it. Joss in particular. And that makes it only worse. In season 6 Xander has already been trashed into the ground by the writers in ultimate unfair ways. In particular in OMWF.
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 5, 2004 13:16:56 GMT -5
I'm not accussing you of making the comparison. I fully realize that the writers did it. Joss in particular. And that makes it only worse. In season 6 Xander has already been trashed into the ground by the writers in ultimate unfair ways. In particular in OMWF. Oh - OK. So you are saying that you see the comparison, you just don't think it was fair of the writers to make it. That hyena demon wouldn't have sexually attacked Buffy if it had gotten into . . . Jenny Calendar instead of Xander. It was a combo of Xander & demon that did it, is all I'm saying. Xander would NEVER have done anything like that if he hadn't been possessed, I understand that. And I think the same of William. Despite what is said about Jesse, we can see that plenty of William is left in Spike. By the way - I love Xander, so I wasn't trying to trash him in any way.
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Post by Lissa on Aug 5, 2004 14:04:29 GMT -5
Oh - OK. So you are saying that you see the comparison, you just don't think it was fair of the writers to make it. That hyena demon wouldn't have sexually attacked Buffy if it had gotten into . . . Jenny Calendar instead of Xander. It was a combo of Xander & demon that did it, is all I'm saying. Xander would NEVER have done anything like that if he hadn't been possessed, I understand that. And I think the same of William. Despite what is said about Jesse, we can see that plenty of William is left in Spike. By the way - I love Xander, so I wasn't trying to trash him in any way. It's coming from what Spike, or in general a vampire, is. But, I see your point about the mixed up thing. Does that mean that Spike is a twisted William with a conscious? You do realize how I got that feeling of unfairness, don't you? It's like they have changed the concept of a vampire and now suddenly it's similar to XanderHyena. And hey both have attempted a rape on Buffy. And if you view Xander + Demon as the attacker than the spirit used Xander's love to attack Buffy (And Willow too by the way). That means the spirit abused Xander's love and makes him into a victim. Just like the demon did do that to William in the way you view it. Right? But then both Xander and William are not guilty. I love both Xander and Spike, regardless of what's what. They are my two favorite characters of the entire Jossverse. So, for me that's really not at stake. Actually I love all characters, except for Robin Wood. And Angel is somewhat boring
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 5, 2004 14:30:14 GMT -5
It's coming from what Spike, or in general a vampire, is. But, I see your point about the mixed up thing. Does that mean that Spike is a twisted William with a conscious? You do realize how I got that feeling of unfairness, don't you? It's like they have changed the concept of a vampire and now suddenly it's similar to XanderHyena. And hey both have attempted a rape on Buffy. And if you view Xander + Demon as the attacker than the spirit used Xander's love to attack Buffy (And Willow too by the way). That means the spirit abused Xander's love and makes him into a victim. Just like the demon did do that to William in the way you view it. Right? But then both Xander and William are not guilty. I love both Xander and Spike, regardless of what's what. They are my two favorite characters of the entire Jossverse. So, for me that's really not at stake. Actually I love all characters, except for Robin Wood. And Angel is somewhat boring I liked Robin Wood. I liked Angel, but also find him a little on the dull side. My view is . . . it is hard to put this clearly. My view is that Xander + Hyena Demon = Hyena-Xander. And William + Vampire Demon = Spike. Hyena-Xander and Spike both attacked Buffy. Both needed both their "sides" to do it. I don't know how to assign blame, because I don't think the demon-side alone would have done it without the human-side, and I don't think the human-side alone would have done it without the demon-side. So - I blame Hyena-Xander, and I blame Spike. And when I say that, I don't know how to split Xander and William off and call them 100% innocent - even though I agree that they wouldn't have done it without the demon. The being they became after possession is to blame, and that being contained their human sides . . . so . . . hmmm. Well - we've beaten that horse to a pulp, huh?
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Post by Lissa on Aug 5, 2004 16:52:36 GMT -5
I liked Robin Wood. I liked Angel, but also find him a little on the dull side. My view is . . . it is hard to put this clearly. My view is that Xander + Hyena Demon = Hyena-Xander. And William + Vampire Demon = Spike. Hyena-Xander and Spike both attacked Buffy. Both needed both their "sides" to do it. I don't know how to assign blame, because I don't think the demon-side alone would have done it without the human-side, and I don't think the human-side alone would have done it without the demon-side. So - I blame Hyena-Xander, and I blame Spike. And when I say that, I don't know how to split Xander and William off and call them 100% innocent - even though I agree that they wouldn't have done it without the demon. The being they became after possession is to blame, and that being contained their human sides . . . so . . . hmmm. Well - we've beaten that horse to a pulp, huh? I find Xander + Hyena Demon = Hyena-Xander somewhat weird. But, for the rest I can agree with your analysis.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jun 17, 2005 21:05:53 GMT -5
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Post by jeff on Apr 7, 2007 22:26:13 GMT -5
I agree this epiisode is one of my favorites of season 1.
NB really shines in this episode. For someone who has not acted before this season this, for me was on the scale of DB's scene in I only have eyes for you. He went from being such a sweet guy, to being possessed and acting like a total ass. It really was a nice transformation and showed some of his acting range to come in future years.
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