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Post by William the Bloody on Sept 6, 2003 16:22:30 GMT -5
Written by Joss Whedon
Directed by Joss Whedon
Air date: 1/20/98
Buffy must battle not only the Judge but also Angel, who has lost his soul after experiencing a moment of true happiness.
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Post by jeff on Jun 12, 2007 15:39:24 GMT -5
I am curious. A few episodes back I mentioned about Drusilla torturing Angel because of what he did to her family, but when Angelus comes back she is all happy and saying "We are a family again."
My question is , was she really pissed about her family? Or the fact that Angel had a soul?
Because once a person becomes a vamp they pretty much kill their family, they hold no attatchments to them. At least Angel didn't. Spike did try to turn his mother, his love for her was still there, but she did not return the love, if fact she was happy to be free of him.
So why was Dru so bent on Torturing Angel about what he did to her family. It was in "whats my line part II."
Someone explain for me please.
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Post by jeff on Jun 12, 2007 15:58:48 GMT -5
I went and re-read Springs Spikecentricity review for the answer to the last post. Spring mentions Dru torturing Angel to bring his guilt to the surface for killing her family. I never looked at it that way. So maybe I should go back and re-read Springs reviews before I comment. But dammit her reviews are so well thought out , and very deep. I might as well be typing Angel Bad, Buffy Good. Like Episode. Like Cordy. ROFL .  |
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Post by jeff on Jun 12, 2007 16:07:56 GMT -5
Well, I can remember being open mouthed, jaw dropping shocked at the turn of Angel. This was one of the most shocking episodes up to this point in the series. Hell it may have been one of the most shocking all through the series. (along with Spike getting re-souled. I never saw that one coming either.)
DB really shines in this role. I enjoyed seing Angelus come out and play , it really added a whole new Dimension to his character. And the fight scene between he and Buffy at the mall was outstanding. This is one my top 10 favorite episodes.
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Post by jeff on Jun 12, 2007 16:11:38 GMT -5
The final scene between Giles and Buffy was one of my favorites scenes ever. She so needed a father figure in her life. And from that moment on she had one. That scene made me love and respect the character of Giles more than ever.
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Post by Lola m on Jun 13, 2007 16:36:21 GMT -5
I am curious. A few episodes back I mentioned about Drusilla torturing Angel because of what he did to her family, but when Angelus comes back she is all happy and saying "We are a family again." My question is , was she really pissed about her family? Or the fact that Angel had a soul? Because once a person becomes a vamp they pretty much kill their family, they hold no attatchments to them. At least Angel didn't. Spike did try to turn his mother, his love for her was still there, but she did not return the love, if fact she was happy to be free of him. So why was Dru so bent on Torturing Angel about what he did to her family. It was in "whats my line part II." Someone explain for me please. Well, this is all IMHO, so take it how you will . . . I think it all goes back to being more complicated than the way Giles and the Watchers first explain vamps to Buffy. It's not just the person you know dies and a demon takes their place. It seems to me that all through BtVS and AtS, Joss kept showing us further layers than that - that he was saying vamps were a mixture of the person who died and the demon that keeps them undead. He mostly does this, I think, by letting us see complexity and variation from vamp to vamp and even in complex and sometimes contradictory behavior by one vamp. So we have differences between Angel and Spike and Darla and Dru, etc. But we also see each of them react in ways that sometimes contradict themselves. Which could be either a conflict between the demon side of them and the remnants of the human that died or just plain mean that that individual changed their mind a time or two or had conflicting feelings, as anyone might. I think the closest Joss comes to telling us directly that vamps are more complicated than a "one demon fits all" description is in Dopplegangland, when we get: BUFFY: (reassuringly) Willow, just remember, a vampire's personality has nothing to do with the person it was. ANGEL: Well, actually... (gets a look from Buffy) That's a good point. Which is a lot of overkill and overthinking and babble and probably more than you were looking for, eh? Oh, and also, Dru was nuttier than a fruitcake, so ya always gotta factor that in the mix.  ;D |
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Post by jeff on Jun 13, 2007 17:05:38 GMT -5
I am curious. A few episodes back I mentioned about Drusilla torturing Angel because of what he did to her family, but when Angelus comes back she is all happy and saying "We are a family again." My question is , was she really pissed about her family? Or the fact that Angel had a soul? Because once a person becomes a vamp they pretty much kill their family, they hold no attatchments to them. At least Angel didn't. Spike did try to turn his mother, his love for her was still there, but she did not return the love, if fact she was happy to be free of him. So why was Dru so bent on Torturing Angel about what he did to her family. It was in "whats my line part II." Someone explain for me please. Well, this is all IMHO, so take it how you will . . . I think it all goes back to being more complicated than the way Giles and the Watchers first explain vamps to Buffy. It's not just the person you know dies and a demon takes their place. It seems to me that all through BtVS and AtS, Joss kept showing us further layers than that - that he was saying vamps were a mixture of the person who died and the demon that keeps them undead. He mostly does this, I think, by letting us see complexity and variation from vamp to vamp and even in complex and sometimes contradictory behavior by one vamp. So we have differences between Angel and Spike and Darla and Dru, etc. But we also see each of them react in ways that sometimes contradict themselves. Which could be either a conflict between the demon side of them and the remnants of the human that died or just plain mean that that individual changed their mind a time or two or had conflicting feelings, as anyone might. I think the closest Joss comes to telling us directly that vamps are more complicated than a "one demon fits all" description is in Dopplegangland, when we get: BUFFY: (reassuringly) Willow, just remember, a vampire's personality has nothing to do with the person it was. ANGEL: Well, actually... (gets a look from Buffy) That's a good point. Which is a lot of overkill and overthinking and babble and probably more than you were looking for, eh? Oh, and also, Dru was nuttier than a fruitcake, so ya always gotta factor that in the mix. ;D Lovely, Fantastic, response. I completely see what your saying. I forgot about that scene in Dopplegangland. I remember it well now that you mention it. I also thought about Dru being nuts as well. I figured that played a part in it also. Lola. You. So. Rock. |
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Post by Karen on Jun 13, 2007 21:00:44 GMT -5
Well, I can remember being open mouthed, jaw dropping shocked at the turn of Angel. This was one of the most shocking episodes up to this point in the series. Hell it may have been one of the most shocking all through the series. (along with Spike getting re-souled. I never saw that one coming either.) DB really shines in this role. I enjoyed seing Angelus come out and play , it really added a whole new Dimension to his character. And the fight scene between he and Buffy at the mall was outstanding. This is one my top 10 favorite episodes. Oh, me, too. I miss scary DB. |
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Jun 14, 2007 9:57:28 GMT -5
This is a brilliant episode. DB clearly enjoys chewing the scenery as Angelus. As to Dru's behavior in this episodes, well..
1. Dru's nuts. Bonkers. Insane-o. Gone 'round the bend and ain't comin' back.
2. Dru's not so nuts as we might be led to think.
I've watched Dru over the years and she exhibits more faces than a polititian in an election year. She might be the most complicated character in the Buffyverse, even including her offspring, Spike.
The first glimpse we have of Dru is the waif-y, waft-y, soft voiced image she projects while she's ill and wanting/needing Spike to look after her. We see that face reappear many times over the years. I've come to call it Dru's manipulative face. This is the face she shows when she isn't killing, but wants someone to do things for her. This is the Dru that talks to her dolls and names the stars. But there's another Dru face, one that is intelligent, far from insane and very, very dangerous. How many times do we see purposeful, resolve-face, murderous Dru? This is Drusilla stalking and hypnotising Kendra, sucking information out of Giles' mind or moving in to re-sire Darla and it's NOT the face of insanity.
Remember what Angel says about Dru liking the pre-show? All we see here is Dru's pre-show. She never gets to the main event. It's all foreplay. Moreover, Drusilla torturing Angel is the sane Dru, not the mad one. She isn't really angry at him for killing her human family--that's just the prelude--she's angry at him for repeating the crime by becoming (Becoming!) re-souled and leaving his vampire family!
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Post by jeff on Jun 14, 2007 14:16:28 GMT -5
This is a brilliant episode. DB clearly enjoys chewing the scenery as Angelus. As to Dru's behavior in this episodes, well.. 1. Dru's nuts. Bonkers. Insane-o. Gone 'round the bend and ain't comin' back. 2. Dru's not so nuts as we might be led to think. I've watched Dru over the years and she exhibits more faces than a polititian in an election year. She might be the most complicated character in the Buffyverse, even including her offspring, Spike. The first glimpse we have of Dru is the waif-y, waft-y, soft voiced image she projects while she's ill and wanting/needing Spike to look after her. We see that face reappear many times over the years. I've come to call it Dru's manipulative face. This is the face she shows when she isn't killing, but wants someone to do things for her. This is the Dru that talks to her dolls and names the stars. But there's another Dru face, one that is intelligent, far from insane and very, very dangerous. How many times do we see purposeful, resolve-face, murderous Dru? This is Drusilla stalking and hypnotising Kendra, sucking information out of Giles' mind or moving in to re-sire Darla and it's NOT the face of insanity. Remember what Angel says about Dru liking the pre-show? All we see here is Dru's pre-show. She never gets to the main event. It's all foreplay. Moreover, Drusilla torturing Angel is the sane Dru, not the mad one. She isn't really angry at him for killing her human family--that's just the prelude--she's angry at him for repeating the crime by becoming (Becoming!) re-souled and leaving his vampire family! Wow. You have a great read on Drusilla. She is not one of my favorite characters. She is one of the most interesting characters but she just got on my nerves from the beginning. She does not bother me so much this time around. Mostly because I am used to her. But your making me give her character more notice. She still gets on my nerves but she is a great character.  |
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Jun 14, 2007 16:57:21 GMT -5
She's MEANT to get on your nerves, Jeff. I don't believe Dru does anything haphazardly or without intent. She is not as spontaneous as she wants everyone to believe. She's not spontaneous at all. Drusilla is a master manipulator. It's been her modus operendi all along and it's her means of survival. To show how well the strategy works consider that Angelus has tortured her, raped her, used and abused her for well over a hundred years and as many times as she's irritated, annoyed and pissed him off--she survived.
And is it any wonder that she tortures HIM as soon as she gets the opportunity?
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Post by KMInfinity on Jun 14, 2007 17:10:22 GMT -5
Dru is my husband's favorite character. I gave him the scenario and he essentially agrees with Diane. He adds that Dru enjoys the torturing and doesn't really need any motivation for it. However, if she DID need any justification, it would be that "Daddy" deserted the fang-four family. He thinks, as Diane noted, that Dru is very complicated, yet very simple: she is so in the Now that she seems superficial, yet she is also able to work towards goals. She picks up intelligence, tenderness, innocence, etc. as tools, and discards them when unneeded at the moment. My hubby is a psych rehab specialist and finds Dru not unlike many of his clients.  |
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Post by Lola m on Jun 15, 2007 7:08:41 GMT -5
Dru is my husband's favorite character. I gave him the scenario and he essentially agrees with Diane. He adds that Dru enjoys the torturing and doesn't really need any motivation for it. However, if she DID need any justification, it would be that "Daddy" deserted the fang-four family. He thinks, as Diane noted, that Dru is very complicated, yet very simple: she is so in the Now that she seems superficial, yet she is also able to work towards goals. She picks up intelligence, tenderness, innocence, etc. as tools, and discards them when unneeded at the moment. My hubby is a psych rehab specialist and finds Dru not unlike many of his clients.  Wow. Spending your day with multiple Drusillas . . . ;D Agreement with much of what Diane and KMInfinity are saying here as well. I especially like the sentence above that I highlighted in red. Nice summary! |
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Jun 15, 2007 9:52:10 GMT -5
Dru is my husband's favorite character. I gave him the scenario and he essentially agrees with Diane. He adds that Dru enjoys the torturing and doesn't really need any motivation for it. However, if she DID need any justification, it would be that "Daddy" deserted the fang-four family. He thinks, as Diane noted, that Dru is very complicated, yet very simple: she is so in the Now that she seems superficial, yet she is also able to work towards goals. She picks up intelligence, tenderness, innocence, etc. as tools, and discards them when unneeded at the moment. My hubby is a psych rehab specialist and finds Dru not unlike many of his clients. So-called simple people are often extremely complicated. I like the phrasing here. It sums up what I said very succinctly. Dru likes to play the crazy, but crazy like a fox! |
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;D
