Lie To Me Discussion

[William the Bloody]

Let the discussion begin!

[Spaced Out Looney]

Ford finds Spike right after he scares the information out of Blondie Vamp. He strolls into Spike’s lair unhindered, causing Spike to shout: "Do I have anyone on watch here? It’s called security, people. Are you all asleep?" He asks Ford, "How did you find me?" - just after the traitorous Blondie has appeared on the scene to hand him a book. She smiles at Spike and makes a funny, faintly puckery movement with her open mouth, almost like an unfinished bite. When I saw it, I wondered how an actress in a very minor role got away with such a distracting bit of over-acting. But then, a minute later, an annoyed Spike grabs Ford by the ear.
And suddenly, I go slack-jawed with astonishment. Because all at once, while watching an episode featuring betrayal upon betrayal, I am reminded of the most famous betrayal of them all – that of Jesus by Judas Iscariot, when he tells the High Priests where to find Jesus, then betrays his identity with a kiss:

Thanks for pointing this out. This scene seems to suggest to me that Spike's story is really about his fall from darkness, seduced (though the seduction is not straightforward) by a beautiful woman. Instead of "selling his soul to the devil," he earns his back. Buffy crippling him when he next appears in What's My Line really sets things in motion.

Two other things are really interesting in this scene.
One is Spike's comment that Ford had a death wish. If there's one thing Spike really knows, that's the death wish; perhaps, even though Spike couldn't stand Ford he did identify with him a little. And of course, either Spike or Dru in the end gave Ford what he wanted.

The second thing is that the reason Ford wanted to be turned was because he was terminally ill, which is the same reason Spike decided to turn his mom. I don't think Spike knew of Ford's illness, but it's interesting nonetheless.

But notice that Spike has not betrayed Ford. He has kept his promise to sire him. Why? Perhaps it is because it serves Spike well to be seen as a man of his word amongst his followers. Or maybe there is some other practical reason. Truth can serve Evil as well as Good, and Spike, we will learn as time goes by, is expert at using truth for his purposes.

What's interesting about Spike pre-soul is that while he may have no conscience, he always has a strong sense of honor, betraying his victorian gentleman roots. I think throughout the entire series, the only promise he intentionally breaks is his promise to never return to Sunnydale.

[SpringSummers]

Spaced said:

Thanks for pointing this out. This scene seems to suggest to me that Spike's story is really about his fall from darkness, seduced (though the seduction is not straightforward) by a beautiful woman. Buffy crippling him when he next appears in What's My Line really sets things in motion.

So true. I never thought of that as a turning point, but it is.

Two other things are really interesting in this scene.
One is Spike's comment that Ford had a death wish. If there's one thing Spike really knows, that's the death wish; perhaps, even though Spike couldn't stand Ford he did identify with him a little. And of course, either Spike or Dru in the end gave Ford what he wanted.

The second thing is that the reason Ford wanted to be turned was because he was terminally ill, which is the same reason Spike decided to turn his mom. I don't think Spike knew of Ford's illness, but it's interesting nonetheless.

What's interesting about Spike pre-soul is that while he may have no conscience, he always has a strong sense of honor, betraying his victorian gentleman roots. I think throughout the entire series, the only promise he intentionally breaks is his promise to never returned to Sunnydale.

You know, that struck me, in Lover's Walk. Buffy says to Spike, when he promises to take them to Willow & Xander, that he's "not exactly famous for keeping his promises." But in fact, that's exactly what he's famous for - as Buffy knows, from Becoming II.

[Spaced Out Looney]

SpringSummers said:

You know, that struck me, in Lover's Walk. Buffy says to Spike, when he promises to take them to Willow & Xander, that he's "not exactly famous for keeping his promises." But in fact, that's exactly what he's famous for - as Buffy knows, from Becoming II.

I think maybe she was referring to the fact that he promised to never come back to Sunnydale. But her assertion hardly holds up in the long run.

[SpringSummers]

Spaced said:

I think maybe she was referring to the fact that he promised to never come back to Sunnydale. But her assertion hardly holds up in the long run.

This made me curious, so I looked it up. From Becoming II:

SPIKE (to Buffy): "I'll take her [Dru] out of the country. You'll never hear from us again, I bloody well hope."

Spike's side of the deal is: Keep Giles alive, fight with Buffy instead of against her, and leave town with Dru. Buffy's side of the deal is: Go to the mansion as soon as she can, kill Angel, and stop the apocalypse.

The "never hear from us again" - it's worded (and Buffy accepts it) as a highly likely attractive side-effect of the deal.

NOT to say that this isn't what Buffy is likely referring to when she makes that comment, about "not keeping his promises" in Lovers Walk.. It could very well have felt that way to Buffy, when she realized Spike was back in town: "He said he'd never come back!"

[Spaced Out Looney]

SpringSummers said:

This made me curious, so I looked it up. From Becoming II:

SPIKE (to Buffy): "I'll take her [Dru] out of the country. You'll never hear from us again, I bloody well hope."

Spike's side of the deal is: Keep Giles alive, fight with Buffy instead of against her, and leave town with Dru. Buffy's side of the deal is: Go to the mansion as soon as she can, kill Angel, and stop the apocalypse.

The "never hear from us again" - it's worded (and Buffy accepts it) as a highly likely attractive side-effect of the deal.

NOT to say that this isn't what Buffy is likely referring to when she makes that comment, about "not keeping his promises" in Lovers Walk.. It could very well have felt that way to Buffy, when she realized Spike was back in town: "He said he'd never come back!"

Hmm, so _technically_ he never broke that promise either.

Interesting that despite Spike's slayer killage, everyone perceives Dru to be the more dangerous of the pair.

[SpringSummers]

Spaced said:

Hmm, so _technically_ he never broke that promise either.

Interesting that despite Spike's slayer killage, everyone perceives Dru to be the more dangerous of the pair.

Yes, I noticed that as well, and I have to agree with the citizens of Sunnydale . . . Spike is scary but Dru is scarier. She's evil through and through, but on top of that, is totally beyond reason and completely unpredictable.

In her way, she's even scarier than Angel or Darla.

[Lola m]

SpringSummers said:

Yes, I noticed that as well, and I have to agree with the citizens of Sunnydale . . . Spike is scary but Dru is scarier. She's evil through and through, but on top of that, is totally beyond reason and completely unpredictable.

In her way, she's even scarier than Angel or Darla.

Yup. It's one of the reasons I find her such a fascinating character and (I think) a difficult one for writers to capture. That combination of the violence of the demon, the precognition of Dru, and the insanity from just before she was turned.

From the first moment she and Spike arrive in School Hard, we can see how even the other vampires, even the Annoying Annointed One - look at her and go . . . . huh?!

And later, after she's saved Spike from the church but before Angelus arrives, she's clearly the one that the minions fear. Frankly, it looks like they almost count on Spike to (sporadically) protect them from her vagarities and sudden angers.

Which makes every single sweet or tender scene between her and Spike that much more . . . . wow. Really highlighting how different both of them are, vampirically speaking.

Lola

Um. Ooops. I can babble on quite a bit when the discussion turns to Dru. ;D

[Spaced Out Looney]

Lola said:

Yup. It's one of the reasons I find her such a fascinating character and (I think) a difficult one for writers to capture. That combination of the violence of the demon, the precognition of Dru, and the insanity from just before she was turned.

From the first moment she and Spike arrive in School Hard, we can see how even the other vampires, even the Annoying Annointed One - look at her and go . . . . huh?!

And later, after she's saved Spike from the church but before Angelus arrives, she's clearly the one that the minions fear. Frankly, it looks like they almost count on Spike to (sporadically) protect them from her vagarities and sudden angers.

Which makes every single sweet or tender scene between her and Spike that much more . . . . wow. Really highlighting how different both of them are, vampirically speaking.

Lola

Um. Ooops. I can babble on quite a bit when the discussion turns to Dru. ;D

Wow, you've obviously spent a lot of time thinking about the Dru character. I'd be curious to know what your thoughts are about Dru when she appears in Crush, if you could post them on the Crush board.