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Post by Queen E on Jul 20, 2008 17:54:38 GMT -5
Um, that was kind of awesome. And I know what happens to Penny could be read as the whole "Joss loves the death" thing...but to me? It felt totally earned. I'll hopefully have more thoughts later...
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Post by Lola m on Jul 21, 2008 7:32:37 GMT -5
Okay, it's been a few hours since I first watched Act III, and I think I've come to terms with what happened. I think I was more mad at myself for not seeing it coming from a mile away. And what a fantastic set-up for a sequel(s) . . . . It's been such a good week to be a Whedon fan. Such a good week! A sequel would be awesome! Everything Joss ever does tends to make me go "but what happens next!"
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Post by Pixi on Jul 21, 2008 7:38:07 GMT -5
Gobsmacked.
But that's Joss. NPH kills me with the pain.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 21, 2008 7:42:32 GMT -5
**nods** For a bit, I was waiting for her to wake up or Dr Horrible to make her come back. But, I also think the end is ambiguous. I think him just sitting there, very "normal" looking, is meant to make us wonder how much of what we saw really happened.Oh yeah, I had that same thought. I just was foolishly wishing for a happy ending at first. And then I remembered this is a Joss show. And then I realized this way is much better for the storyline and gives it more Jossivity, and now I'm all better. ;D I keep going back and forth about the ending shot. Does it mean that some of all of the story was in his imagination? Does it mean that the Billy inside Dr Horrible is now all dead and uncaring? Does it mean that the Billy inside Dr Horrible is the thing he needs to connect with to make him realize he should not be Horrible? Also, heee! Jossivity. True dat. And yeah, classic Joss - because he is always the "there's always consequences" guy. Because when you decide to be evil and take over the world (even if you say it's for the world's own good) and plan to do murder and other not good things? You shouldn't be surprised when, you know, people die and it all goes horribly (ha!) awry. Even if you didn't pull the trigger, things were set in motion to kill and hurt and, gosh, lookee what happened! Also, it's such a classic idea, both for real comic hero stories and in their parodies - to have the hero and villain battling and fighting and it's the bystanders that get hurt. Joss in particular usually has the bystander, or like in this case the good/innocent love interest, stand in for the audience. To drive home the whole "consequences!!" thing home.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 21, 2008 7:45:11 GMT -5
**nods** For a bit, I was waiting for her to wake up or Dr Horrible to make her come back. But, I also think the end is ambiguous. I think him just sitting there, very "normal" looking, is meant to make us wonder how much of what we saw really happened.Rewatching it, I sort of see what you mean. Not sure how much it matters, how much was actually real or not. Interesting on a meta level though. And Penny really likes frozen yogurt, huh? Heeeeee! Now there's two shows with a running theme of yogurt. ;D [/Burn Notice reference] Yeah, I loved how we were seeing the FroYo constantly. Even in the last scene, where she was waiting for Billy to show up and this time she had a yogurt for him. Since I've watched the whole thing together a few times now, I keep going back and forth about what the ending could really mean. Several possibilities . . .
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Post by Lola m on Jul 21, 2008 7:50:14 GMT -5
Wow, half of my flist is *pissed* that Penny died. Yeah, I've only skimmed a few places for comments and I've been muchly intrigued by all the "very serious" response, pro and con, about the storyline. I mean, I love to discuss and meta and dig into things as much (hell, let's face it, more) as anyone, but wow! Some really really, like, indepth arguing back and forth on this one. To me? The ending fit the story that was going on all along. Both from a serious "Dr Horrible's journey to evilness" way of thinking and from a "fun dark musical like Little Shop of Horrors or the best of Sondheim" way of thinking. (Boy, how very apt that I've been listening to Little Shop of Horrors a lot lately, 'cuz we got the DVD of the movie for dad and we all watched it recently. ;D )
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Post by Lola m on Jul 21, 2008 8:00:31 GMT -5
I am just in awe. I was expected a low budget "home movie-ish" type of thing. Dude!! Me too! This looked so good! ;D Yeah, you're better off going into any Joss thing knowing that, while we may get happiness along the way, there's gonna be heartbreak in there too. Always! **nods** I mean, we'd been getting lyrics about killing someone and Dr. Horrible singing about how evil was on the rise in him and that Penny would see that this was all that was left in him. So, the story was sort of naturally going there. (Plus, a tiny part of me thinks that if Dr Horrible had killed Captain Hammer and gotten the girl, lots fewer people would be as cranky. I betcha we'd have a lot of "yays" and people seeing it as a cartoony death and so on. Which is totally not Joss' style. ) See, I can really see that angle now too. So, I guess it's still an "ambiguous" ending for me. ;D **nods nods nods a lot** I keep thinking of how I thought the pie thing applied to Dr Horrible was: top layer, him pretending to be just an ordinary but good guy for Penny; middle layer is evil Dr Horrible who foolishly thinks that woman like Penny would be OK with his evil plans if he just gives her "a shiny new Australia"; bottom crust is the good guy he actually is because of why he wants to take over the world for "social change". But then I think, what if the pie should be looked at it from the audience's perspective. Because we first meet Dr Horrible with his world-taking over plans, even if they seem like he's too uncoordinated to pull them off (top crust), but inside he's really this nice dork with a crush (filling), but underneath that? A crusth that's same as the top layer - Dr Horrible who wants to take over the world. Oh that Joss!! Even in a fun, could be throw-away online goofy musical? He's all big with the making me think and stuff! ;D
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Post by Lola m on Jul 21, 2008 8:00:56 GMT -5
OK, the incident with the van in part I foreshadows Penny's eventual demise. The reason for it happening at all is because of Dr. Horrible, cause he hijacked it with the remote control thingy, but Captain Hammer is the one who smashes the device and makes the van spin out of control and almost run over Penny. Oh, excellent!!! Yes, exactly!!
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Post by Lola m on Jul 21, 2008 8:03:52 GMT -5
OK, the incident with the van in part I foreshadows Penny's eventual demise. The reason for it happening at all is because of Dr. Horrible, cause he hijacked it with the remote control thingy, but Captain Hammer is the one who smashes the device and makes the van spin out of control and almost run over Penny. Good catch. Dr. Horrible found out the hard way that you can't control the uncontrollable, like strong emotions, or the fallout from bringing out the heavy guns. **nods** Deciding to kill someone? Means that someone may end up dead. And it might not be the someone you were planning on. So many Buffyverse or AtS examples . . . for some reason, I'm thinking of Gunn saying "I didn't think it would be one of us". Oh, totally! Encore, indeed! What a rollicking adventure this was! So funny, so "grabs your heart", so awesome!
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 21, 2008 8:05:44 GMT -5
Wow, half of my flist is *pissed* that Penny died. Yeah, I've only skimmed a few places for comments and I've been muchly intrigued by all the "very serious" response, pro and con, about the storyline. I mean, I love to discuss and meta and dig into things as much (hell, let's face it, more) as anyone, but wow! Some really really, like, indepth arguing back and forth on this one. To me? The ending fit the story that was going on all along. Both from a serious "Dr Horrible's journey to evilness" way of thinking and from a "fun dark musical like Little Shop of Horrors or the best of Sondheim" way of thinking. (Boy, how very apt that I've been listening to Little Shop of Horrors a lot lately, 'cuz we got the DVD of the movie for dad and we all watched it recently. ;D ) Yeah, it was a classic musical thing to do. I think some people were approaching it from a comic book perspective, which is kind of a different sensibility. Also, it seemed to me that Penny was pretty obviously a parody of the stereotypical love interest. I mean, helping the homeless is about as cliche as you can get. And she filled her function in the story, which was Dr. Horrible's story, not hers. Also, I think we run into a problem when the killing off of any female character becomes an affront to all women.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 21, 2008 8:06:06 GMT -5
Um, that was kind of awesome. And I know what happens to Penny could be read as the whole "Joss loves the death" thing...but to me? It felt totally earned. I'll hopefully have more thoughts later... Oooooh! I for one will be eager to read those thoughts. (This is also making me think of how Rachael compared Joss to the Bones finale thing. How with Joss' stuff, you go back and see exactly how he was leading you to the thing that happened. 'Cuz watching the whole 3 acts together over again? You sooooo see the path he's taking you along!)
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Post by Lola m on Jul 21, 2008 8:16:00 GMT -5
Yeah, I've only skimmed a few places for comments and I've been muchly intrigued by all the "very serious" response, pro and con, about the storyline. I mean, I love to discuss and meta and dig into things as much (hell, let's face it, more) as anyone, but wow! Some really really, like, indepth arguing back and forth on this one. To me? The ending fit the story that was going on all along. Both from a serious "Dr Horrible's journey to evilness" way of thinking and from a "fun dark musical like Little Shop of Horrors or the best of Sondheim" way of thinking. (Boy, how very apt that I've been listening to Little Shop of Horrors a lot lately, 'cuz we got the DVD of the movie for dad and we all watched it recently. ;D ) Yeah, it was a classic musical thing to do. I think some people were approaching it from a comic book perspective, which is kind of a different sensibility. **nods** Although, I can see it as a more modern comic book perspective, too. **nods** I mean really, they were all "stock" charcters. Which is just dorky, 'cuz Penny's death wasn't a "kill the woman thing", it was a "when you do these violent battles, it's always the innocent bystander who gets killed" thing. You always gotta look at each actual story and so on. Plus, that's kinda theme with Joss. Hell, I could make an argument for saying Penny was actually the most complete character in the whole thing because we actually get a hint of background and history for her when she sang the story about growing up.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 21, 2008 8:17:10 GMT -5
Gobsmacked. But that's Joss. NPH kills me with the pain. OMG!! NPH so good, when he's singing about getting all he ever wanted as he carried Penny's body to the gurney? (Be careful what you wish for, dude.) Or the look on his face as he robbed the bank?! Wounded!!
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Post by rich on Jul 21, 2008 8:22:40 GMT -5
Been busy with work so Jan had to kind of push me to watch it. I'm so glad she did. Simply wonderful, especially the music.
I took everything that happened at the end to be real and not in Billy's head. I think the death of Penny results in the death of Billy's better self and all he has left is to be Dr. Horrible. Yet another Joss character, who when dealing with the pain of living, makes a bad choice and sacrifices his/her humanity. The ending was a classic "what doth it profit a man..." kind of ending.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 21, 2008 8:26:43 GMT -5
Gobsmacked. But that's Joss. NPH kills me with the pain. OMG!! NPH so good, when he's singing about getting all he ever wanted as he carried Penny's body to the gurney? (Be careful what you wish for, dude.) Or the look on his face as he robbed the bank?! Wounded!! One thing some one pointed out on my flist was the use of the welding goggles at the end, when he pulled them down from his forehead and put them over his eyes, alienating himself from us and everyone else. It's such a powerful image. I'm also thinking about how the rest of the Evil League seemed about as empty and alienated as Dr. Horrible, and that's why they insisted that he kill some one before he would be allowed to join their club. He had to experience what they experienced.
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