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Post by William the Bloody on Oct 25, 2003 8:35:38 GMT -5
Written by Marti Noxon
Directed by David Greenwalt
Air Date: 12/8/98
After Cordelia tells her new friend Anya that she wishes Buffy had never come to Sunnydale, she suddenly finds herself in a reality where vampires control the town.
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Post by Queen E on Apr 23, 2004 14:17:34 GMT -5
Started this thought on the Spikecentricity thread and realized, as I was writing, that it's really more appropriate here.
Spring, and others, have pointed out the parallels between William and Xander, and Spring, on the Fool for Love thread in the Spikecentricity section, said she had no logistical problem with Cecily being a vengence demon when William went all "googly-eyed" over her, which creates yet another parallel between William (pre-Spike) and Xander.
So, in "The Wish," did Xander as vampire strike anyone as Spike-like? He was obviously an Aurelian (I wouldn't consider it fanwank to assume that Willow would have been turned by the Debarge vamp [an Aurelian]in "Welcome to the Hellmouth" and Xander would have been turned by Jesse. He did like to wear the tight leather pants. He liked watching Willow torture Angel (and presumably others).
Anyone else see this, or am I just nuts?
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 23, 2004 14:52:51 GMT -5
Started this thought on the Spikecentricity thread and realized, as I was writing, that it's really more appropriate here. Spring, and others, have pointed out the parallels between William and Xander, and Spring, on the Fool for Love thread in the Spikecentricity section, said she had no logistical problem with Cecily being a vengence demon when William went all "googly-eyed" over her, which creates yet another parallel between William (pre-Spike) and Xander. So, in "The Wish," did Xander as vampire strike anyone as Spike-like? He was obviously an Aurelian (I wouldn't consider it fanwank to assume that Willow would have been turned by the Debarge vamp [an Aurelian]in "Welcome to the Hellmouth" and Xander would have been turned by Jesse. He did like to wear the tight leather pants. He liked watching Willow torture Angel (and presumably others). Anyone else see this, or am I just nuts? Maybe I will feel differently when I've looked at Season 6 and 7 more closely, but I'm not sure the "she must have been a vengeance demon during FFL" was deliberate - so I'm not sure the parallel with Xander was deliberate. BUT - that is not to say that there aren't deliberate parallels drawn between Xander and Spike at times. On the Aurelain thing - is this not pure fan-wank/fan-fic stuff? I can't remember anything in BtVS canon that gave us any indication there was anything special about any line of vamps. Was there something on AtS? I have missed many eps of early AtS, so if that is where this talk about "Aurelians" is, then my bad. From what I know, I don't buy the idea that any "line of vamps" is any different than any other. And I definitely don't believe the demon inside is any different in any vampire (the human memories and proclivities vary, but the demon does not, is how it seems to me). But Spike and Xander -they do have things in common. Biting senses of humor, former infatuations with Buffy, and more. |
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Post by Queen E on Apr 23, 2004 15:38:27 GMT -5
Maybe I will feel differently when I've looked at Season 6 and 7 more closely, but I'm not sure the "she must have been a vengeance demon during FFL" was deliberate - so I'm not sure the parallel with Xander was deliberate. BUT - that is not to say that there aren't deliberate parallels drawn between Xander and Spike at times. On the Aurelain thing - is this not pure fan-wank/fan-fic stuff? I can't remember anything in BtVS canon that gave us any indication there was anything special about any line of vamps. Was there something on AtS? I have missed many eps of early AtS, so if that is where this talk about "Aurelians" is, then my bad. From what I know, I don't buy the idea that any "line of vamps" is any different than any other. And I definitely don't believe the demon inside is any different in any vampire (the human memories and proclivities vary, but the demon does not, is how it seems to me). But Spike and Xander -they do have things in common. Biting senses of humor, former infatuations with Buffy, and more. Well, there was kind of; the order of Aurelius is the line that stems from the Master, and includes Darla, Drusilla, Luke, the Annoying One, Spike, Angelus, Jesse, and the Debarge Guy. I agree, and wasn't meaning to say that they were special in any way or had any extraordinary differences, just meaning to point out that Willow and Xander being turned by members of the Order of Aurelius puts them in the same "family" as Spike, "children" of the Master and a kind of "brother and sister" to Darla, Drusilla, Angelus, and Spike. The only extraordinary power the Order of Aurelius seems to confer is the ability to look incredibly hot in leather. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 23, 2004 16:11:45 GMT -5
Well, there was kind of; the order of Aurelius is the line that stems from the Master, and includes Darla, Drusilla, Luke, the Annoying One, Spike, Angelus, Jesse, and the Debarge Guy. I agree, and wasn't meaning to say that they were special in any way or had any extraordinary differences, just meaning to point out that Willow and Xander being turned by members of the Order of Aurelius puts them in the same "family" as Spike, "children" of the Master and a kind of "brother and sister" to Darla, Drusilla, Angelus, and Spike. The only extraordinary power the Order of Aurelius seems to confer is the ability to look incredibly hot in leather. I believe you, but to satisfy my own curiousity, can you tell me where/when "Aurelius" is mentioned? In Season 1 BtVS sometime? On early AtS? I hear people refer to it, but I always assumed it was from some fan-fic, or possibly the books that are out there. Though I can easily imagine Giles mentioning it. When it comes to Season 1, my memory is not so good, since I haven't scoured those eps for my analyses. As to hot in leather - yes, some definite examples come readily to mind! |
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Post by Queen E on Apr 23, 2004 16:25:07 GMT -5
I believe you, but to satisfy my own curiousity, can you tell me where/when "Aurelius" is mentioned? In Season 1 BtVS sometime? On early AtS? I hear people refer to it, but I always assumed it was from some fan-fic, or possibly the books that are out there. Though I can easily imagine Giles mentioning it. When it comes to Season 1, my memory is not so good, since I haven't scoured those eps for my analyses. As to hot in leather - yes, some definite examples come readily to mind! Ooh, goody, research party! Give me a sec: BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYERNever Kill a Boy on the First Date:1. 'Five will die, and from their ashes the Anointed shall rise. The Brethren of Aurelius shall greet him and usher him to his immortal destiny.' As it is written, so shall it be. 'And one of the brethren shall go out hunting the night before and get himself killed, because he couldn't wait to finish his job before he ate.' Oh, wait. (grabs one of the brethren by the throat) That's not written anywhere. 2. GILES: That symbol on the ring... I believe it's the rune for fidelity, but, uh, it doesn't connect with any of the sects that I've studied. BUFFY: What about this? On the inside. It's a sun and three stars. Haven't we seen that somewhere? GILES: Let me see. No, I-I don't think this, um, represents any... BUFFY: (looks in a book) Wait, it's right here. Sun and three stars. Yuck, check these guys out. Told you it looked familiar. GILES: Oh, the Order of Aurelius. Yes, you're right. 3. GILES: The Order of Aurelius is a very old and venerated sect. Prophecy Girl:GILES: Aurelius wrote of the Anointed One, 'The Slayer will not know him, and he will lead her into Hell.' ANGELDarla:DARLA: *The* Master. He commands our order. MASTER: The order of Aurelius. We are the select, the elite. ANGELUS: And you live in the sewers, do you? MASTER: We live below, giving tribute to the old ones. Awaiting that promised day when we will arise. Arise! And lay *waste* to the world above. Definite canon action going on here. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 23, 2004 21:16:05 GMT -5
Ooh, goody, research party! Give me a sec: BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYERNever Kill a Boy on the First Date:1. 'Five will die, and from their ashes the Anointed shall rise. The Brethren of Aurelius shall greet him and usher him to his immortal destiny.' As it is written, so shall it be. 'And one of the brethren shall go out hunting the night before and get himself killed, because he couldn't wait to finish his job before he ate.' Oh, wait. (grabs one of the brethren by the throat) That's not written anywhere. 2. GILES: That symbol on the ring... I believe it's the rune for fidelity, but, uh, it doesn't connect with any of the sects that I've studied. BUFFY: What about this? On the inside. It's a sun and three stars. Haven't we seen that somewhere? GILES: Let me see. No, I-I don't think this, um, represents any... BUFFY: (looks in a book) Wait, it's right here. Sun and three stars. Yuck, check these guys out. Told you it looked familiar. GILES: Oh, the Order of Aurelius. Yes, you're right. 3. GILES: The Order of Aurelius is a very old and venerated sect. Prophecy Girl:GILES: Aurelius wrote of the Anointed One, 'The Slayer will not know him, and he will lead her into Hell.' ANGELDarla:DARLA: *The* Master. He commands our order. MASTER: The order of Aurelius. We are the select, the elite. ANGELUS: And you live in the sewers, do you? MASTER: We live below, giving tribute to the old ones. Awaiting that promised day when we will arise. Arise! And lay *waste* to the world above. Definite canon action going on here. Thanks, eg. I have always wondered about this, and felt "out of the loop" when people mentioned it. I'm not sure I buy the idea that you have to "get turned by someone in the line," though. The words "sect" and "order" do imply selectiveness - but I don't think a "family" relationship is implied. Sounds more like the priesthood than a royal line or family thing. In other words, you could be "turned" by anyone, and end up in the sect, or you could be turned by Angel and never be in the sect. |
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Alexandra
S'cubie
Founder
"You never had it so good as me. Never."
Posts: 108
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Post by Alexandra on May 19, 2004 17:58:00 GMT -5
As to vampire sects, I don't remember any episode where any vampire either growled at or greeted another vampire because of his/her "sectual" orientation. The Aurelians were obviously canon in Season 1 (and a bit of 2), but perhaps the writers decided to drop the sect idea in favor of the looser "sire" orientation. The sire plan can be followed very easily, whereas having to keep track of members of vampire sects starts to get messier when writing storylines.
Also siring doesn't necessarily denote much in the way of loyalty, leaving the writers more free. A sect implies some kind of loyalty. It seemed that the BtVS vampires were often written as running around in clumps (e.g., Sunday's gang at the beginning of S4, and Harmony's failed gang) but without any ceremonial stuff like the Master enjoyed. More like a strong vamp leading weaker ones (much like normal civilization.)
My suspicion is that the sect idea was an initial foray for the series, but was soon dropped as being somewhat limiting. I know that other sects showed up on the radar as secondary interests, like the Order of Terakis (sp?) and the order of knights trying to kill Glory in S5, but not as part of the integral worldbuilding for all the Buffyverse vampires.
I enjoyed the looser connections between vampires for this series the way it was written and I'm glad the "sect" idea didn't become part of the framework of the series.
Alexandra
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Aug 4, 2005 11:45:25 GMT -5
The Wish - Cordy with 'I don't wish, I act'
yup, lots of pretending. Xander is going to see just how over him she is. Even if she isn't.
Wishverse Giles wears glasses like season 1 Giles, not the new squarer kind that go with the buttoned up season 3 look.
Oz looks good with a crossbow.
Wishverse Buffy has some really depressing eyeshadow.
/deep thoughts.
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Post by jeff on Jul 5, 2007 22:05:06 GMT -5
I forgot that when we meet Vamp Willow the first words out of her mouth were "Bored Now."
Wow that was a big prelude to 3 years later.
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Post by jeff on Jul 5, 2007 22:25:34 GMT -5
And we are intruduced to Anya, who will become one of my most favorites. She was a good replacement for Cordy after season 3. She had a lot of the same traits as Cordy. Tell it like it is. Loves Money, Loved Xander. But to me she added just the great touch of humor that Cordy lacked.
Truly one of my favorites.
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Post by Lola m on Sept 16, 2007 18:06:49 GMT -5
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Sept 23, 2007 19:16:14 GMT -5
Hmm. For me there is much to love, and... much to not love about this episode.
I love Buffy in this episode, with her practicality and her clarity. I wish she was like that all the time. I don't think that was the intention.
There's those two quotes you have above, very powerful:
Buffy: World is what it is. We fight. We die. Wishing doesn't change that.
Giles: I have to believe in a better world.
Buffy: Go ahead. I have to live in this one.
Anyanka: How do you know the other world is any better than this?
Giles: Because it has to be.
And the fight scene at the end is beautifully done, and with the great music.
And of course, VampWillow.
On the other hand, there are logic holes, and certain characters, like Jesse and Darla aren't even referenced, even though I really think they should be. Certain things, like the vampires are attracted to bright colors, come out of nowhere. And the bloodsucking machine is completely laughable. And the episode is such that these things do matter to me; it's not good enough for me to not care.
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Episode Festival.
