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Post by KMInfinity on Feb 21, 2009 18:05:49 GMT -5
The next several posts will consist of me copying over my responses and post from the main thread for the following reasons: After 2 weeks trial, I'm going to reverse my vote and put in one vote to do the Dollhouse discussion primarily on its episode thread. ........ I posted in the Main Part that I agree with this.
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Post by KMInfinity on Feb 21, 2009 18:08:31 GMT -5
Multiple choice question: 1. Joss is telling his story, making his existential points, and letting the chips fall where they may. 2. Joss thinks he's writing for cable. 3. Joss thinks network TV should come to resemble cable, so he's pushing the network envelope. 4. Joss figures if he's most certainly going to make the Parents' Television Council's "worst TV shows" list he may as well go for #1! (Although I'd probably give that label to Nip/Tuck, not that I know all of the other shows out there.) E. All of the above. lol Yep.
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Post by KMInfinity on Feb 21, 2009 18:16:15 GMT -5
A good article that illuminated some points of this episode to me: blog.zap2it.com/ithappenedlastnight/2009/02/dollhouse-puts-the-shoulder-to-the-wheel.html Turns out this week's client (think Green Arrow by way of Patrick Bateman by way of Outward Bound) was in fact hired by Alpha for the ultimate purpose of shaking Echo from her stupor. Supposed playboy Richard O'Connell didn't just say, "Prove you're not just an echo," so writer/director Steven S. DeKnight could throw in a cute meta-line our way. That line comes from Alpha's own lips, imprinted upon "Richard" in a way similar to the "neural lock and key" programmed by Topher. This week's engagement was designed by Alpha for the specific purpose of unlocking those keys inside Echo's brain and create a "composite" of personalities and memories.
Good article. Thanks fotada. I think I read that episode two was supposed to be the pilot, right? Do I need to start damning Fox and bitching already? Because I had a very very bad vibe when the news of DH came out and it was Fox giving Joss this "opportunity." grrrr arggghhhh
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Post by Karen on Feb 21, 2009 19:39:35 GMT -5
A good article that illuminated some points of this episode to me: blog.zap2it.com/ithappenedlastnight/2009/02/dollhouse-puts-the-shoulder-to-the-wheel.html Turns out this week's client (think Green Arrow by way of Patrick Bateman by way of Outward Bound) was in fact hired by Alpha for the ultimate purpose of shaking Echo from her stupor. Supposed playboy Richard O'Connell didn't just say, "Prove you're not just an echo," so writer/director Steven S. DeKnight could throw in a cute meta-line our way. That line comes from Alpha's own lips, imprinted upon "Richard" in a way similar to the "neural lock and key" programmed by Topher. This week's engagement was designed by Alpha for the specific purpose of unlocking those keys inside Echo's brain and create a "composite" of personalities and memories.
Michelle-- Great review. Makes me think of the ScoopMe reviews of Buffy that often helped formulate good discussion. Not quite as good as the ScoopMe guy eventually got, but I"m guessing he couldn't have done much better with season one eps, and it's not like we need material on which to base our discussion but I need to remember to check him out on a weekly basis. I liked his assertion that this episode should have been the Pilot. I also like his final paragraph: In my recap last week, I bemoaned the fact that Fox hired Joss Whedon and then tried to de-Whedon the show they commissioned him to make. I stand by that, but after watching tonight's episode, I'm wondering if Whedon himself is trying to move beyond his own oeuvre with this show. You can still hear his familiar cadences coming off Topher's lips, and thematically it feels at home in the Whedonverse, but tonally he's potentially pushing himself into new territory. The subject matter itself (human trafficking, free will, the suppression of the soul) necessitates a new approach. And given his track record, I'm more than willing to traverse into this untested area.Anybody who asks me about Dollhouse, I'm going to point to those themes. Is the writer trying to say that Joss has never traversed into the areas of free will, human trafficking, or the soul - or not just in this particular way - not exactly supernatural? If he is saying the former, then he is not exactly familiar with Joss's work. Buffy, Angel and Firefly all touched on those subjects - albeit in a more fantastical manner. It will be interesting to see if putting them out there in a more 'real world' manner will work with or against network sensibilities.
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Post by Karen on Feb 21, 2009 19:43:17 GMT -5
A good article that illuminated some points of this episode to me: blog.zap2it.com/ithappenedlastnight/2009/02/dollhouse-puts-the-shoulder-to-the-wheel.html Turns out this week's client (think Green Arrow by way of Patrick Bateman by way of Outward Bound) was in fact hired by Alpha for the ultimate purpose of shaking Echo from her stupor. Supposed playboy Richard O'Connell didn't just say, "Prove you're not just an echo," so writer/director Steven S. DeKnight could throw in a cute meta-line our way. That line comes from Alpha's own lips, imprinted upon "Richard" in a way similar to the "neural lock and key" programmed by Topher. This week's engagement was designed by Alpha for the specific purpose of unlocking those keys inside Echo's brain and create a "composite" of personalities and memories.
Good article. Thanks fotada. I think I read that episode two was supposed to be the pilot, right? Do I need to start damning Fox and bitching already? Because I had a very very bad vibe when the news of DH came out and it was Fox giving Joss this "opportunity." grrrr arggghhhh I thought the ep felt more like the pilot, but probably redone to include the flashbacks of the Alpha character's damage. Giving AA's character the scars helped to recognize which was past and present. The first episode, she had faded scars. In Target, her scars were fresh. Nice touch to help out the audience recognize the timeline.
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Post by Shan on Feb 22, 2009 10:39:54 GMT -5
Random thought....is anyone else wondering whether any of the dollhouse staff members might be programmed themselves? Even the programmer guy?
If Alpha's objective in this episode was to give Echo's own slate back to her - or to give her a composite - I wonder why? And I wonder why he went postal in the first place and killed everyone - except Echo? Perhaps we'll get some backstory and there was a relationship of some sort, between them, either before they had their slates wiped semi-clean or some cross-pollination between multiple imprinted personalities. But did Alpha discover something, or realize something? If so, why would it necessitate the butchery? Escaping with the knowledge/memories before he got wiped again makes the most sense to me.
<edit> Oh, yes! I see Sue got there before me, awesome! I was thinking about it in terms of "How do the actives' handlers work it out in their heads that what they're doing is okay in any way? What if someone worked it out FOR them...?"
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Post by Shan on Feb 22, 2009 10:47:25 GMT -5
A good article that illuminated some points of this episode to me: blog.zap2it.com/ithappenedlastnight/2009/02/dollhouse-puts-the-shoulder-to-the-wheel.html Turns out this week's client (think Green Arrow by way of Patrick Bateman by way of Outward Bound) was in fact hired by Alpha for the ultimate purpose of shaking Echo from her stupor. Supposed playboy Richard O'Connell didn't just say, "Prove you're not just an echo," so writer/director Steven S. DeKnight could throw in a cute meta-line our way. That line comes from Alpha's own lips, imprinted upon "Richard" in a way similar to the "neural lock and key" programmed by Topher. This week's engagement was designed by Alpha for the specific purpose of unlocking those keys inside Echo's brain and create a "composite" of personalities and memories.
Michelle-- Great review. Makes me think of the ScoopMe reviews of Buffy that often helped formulate good discussion. Not quite as good as the ScoopMe guy eventually got, but I"m guessing he couldn't have done much better with season one eps, and it's not like we need material on which to base our discussion but I need to remember to check him out on a weekly basis. I liked his assertion that this episode should have been the Pilot. I also like his final paragraph: In my recap last week, I bemoaned the fact that Fox hired Joss Whedon and then tried to de-Whedon the show they commissioned him to make. I stand by that, but after watching tonight's episode, I'm wondering if Whedon himself is trying to move beyond his own oeuvre with this show. You can still hear his familiar cadences coming off Topher's lips, and thematically it feels at home in the Whedonverse, but tonally he's potentially pushing himself into new territory. The subject matter itself (human trafficking, free will, the suppression of the soul) necessitates a new approach. And given his track record, I'm more than willing to traverse into this untested area.Anybody who asks me about Dollhouse, I'm going to point to those themes. That's what got my dander up the other week when I posted about the NPR interviewer who seemed so unfamiliar with JW's work. Despite her repeated attempts to accuse him of creating the theme of the actives in order to explore some sort of "sick male fantasy", I knew we could expect something much more though-provoking from Whedon. I hope the interview didn't turn off any potential viewers. On the other hand, if the interview caused anyone to tune in looking for "sick male fantasy" material, perhaps it's given them some food for thought instead.
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Post by artemis on Feb 22, 2009 11:57:05 GMT -5
A good article that illuminated some points of this episode to me: blog.zap2it.com/ithappenedlastnight/2009/02/dollhouse-puts-the-shoulder-to-the-wheel.html Turns out this week's client (think Green Arrow by way of Patrick Bateman by way of Outward Bound) was in fact hired by Alpha for the ultimate purpose of shaking Echo from her stupor. Supposed playboy Richard O'Connell didn't just say, "Prove you're not just an echo," so writer/director Steven S. DeKnight could throw in a cute meta-line our way. That line comes from Alpha's own lips, imprinted upon "Richard" in a way similar to the "neural lock and key" programmed by Topher. This week's engagement was designed by Alpha for the specific purpose of unlocking those keys inside Echo's brain and create a "composite" of personalities and memories.
i didn't see anything at all in this episode that definitively said it WAS a plot by alpha. it's interesting that some writers about tv are assuming it rather than entertaining it as one possibility. i think it's also a possibility that alpha killed the fake ranger guy because he was posing a threat to echo, or that there's some "lower ranked" alternate possibility like that somebody was setting it up to make the dollhouse believe it was alpha (perhaps to sow doubt among the employees, perhaps for some other reason).
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Post by artemis on Feb 22, 2009 12:03:48 GMT -5
I hope the interview didn't turn off any potential viewers. On the other hand, if the interview caused anyone to tune in looking for "sick male fantasy" material, perhaps it's given them some food for thought instead. ;D here's hoping!
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Post by artemis on Feb 22, 2009 12:13:48 GMT -5
add me to the voices of people who found this episode much faster paced and more jossian than the premiere. the premiere, i watched primarily because it was by joss; this episode, i watched because i thought it was quality television that happened to be by a creator i already liked.
i too prefer having the conversation on this thread. it makes it easier for me to follow it and more likely to respond if i'm posting late like i'm doing today.
and like KMInfinity, i think something like "actives" just, well, seems better to me than using the term "dolls" to describe them. "dolls" makes me feel kind of like i'm adapting the dollhouse's paradigm.
i, too, wonder where they recruit their employees, and whether they do any messing about with any employees' heads.
i do feel like the actives have been base-programmed to be nearly totally passive - almost completely unreactive to the environment around them. i think that's why echo didn't consciously react to what formerly-kellerman (dominic? is that right?) said to her, and why he felt he could get away with saying it. but i wondered if her touching her hand to her shoulder was an unconscious reaction to it - if perhaps in their resting state the actives aren't wiped quite so blank/passive as the dollhouse thinks they are.
i wonder why the agent is so obsessed with echo in particular. has there been some explicit reference to this that i missed, or is it not known yet?
did anyone else catch the boss at the dollhouse referring to her "employers"? i wonder who they are, and why they choose to remain distant from the operation...
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Feb 22, 2009 12:30:07 GMT -5
Michelle-- Great review. Makes me think of the ScoopMe reviews of Buffy that often helped formulate good discussion. Not quite as good as the ScoopMe guy eventually got, but I"m guessing he couldn't have done much better with season one eps, and it's not like we need material on which to base our discussion but I need to remember to check him out on a weekly basis. I liked his assertion that this episode should have been the Pilot. I also like his final paragraph: In my recap last week, I bemoaned the fact that Fox hired Joss Whedon and then tried to de-Whedon the show they commissioned him to make. I stand by that, but after watching tonight's episode, I'm wondering if Whedon himself is trying to move beyond his own oeuvre with this show. You can still hear his familiar cadences coming off Topher's lips, and thematically it feels at home in the Whedonverse, but tonally he's potentially pushing himself into new territory. The subject matter itself (human trafficking, free will, the suppression of the soul) necessitates a new approach. And given his track record, I'm more than willing to traverse into this untested area.Anybody who asks me about Dollhouse, I'm going to point to those themes. Is the writer trying to say that Joss has never traversed into the areas of free will, human trafficking, or the soul - or not just in this particular way - not exactly supernatural? If he is saying the former, then he is not exactly familiar with Joss's work. Buffy, Angel and Firefly all touched on those subjects - albeit in a more fantastical manner. It will be interesting to see if putting them out there in a more 'real world' manner will work with or against network sensibilities. Obviously he wasn't paying attention to AtS at all- especially the interactions between W&H and the Powers that Be, or the way Cordelia and Darla are exploited by both. Julia, not to mention everyone else.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Feb 22, 2009 12:35:30 GMT -5
Michelle-- Great review. Makes me think of the ScoopMe reviews of Buffy that often helped formulate good discussion. Not quite as good as the ScoopMe guy eventually got, but I"m guessing he couldn't have done much better with season one eps, and it's not like we need material on which to base our discussion but I need to remember to check him out on a weekly basis. I liked his assertion that this episode should have been the Pilot. I also like his final paragraph: In my recap last week, I bemoaned the fact that Fox hired Joss Whedon and then tried to de-Whedon the show they commissioned him to make. I stand by that, but after watching tonight's episode, I'm wondering if Whedon himself is trying to move beyond his own oeuvre with this show. You can still hear his familiar cadences coming off Topher's lips, and thematically it feels at home in the Whedonverse, but tonally he's potentially pushing himself into new territory. The subject matter itself (human trafficking, free will, the suppression of the soul) necessitates a new approach. And given his track record, I'm more than willing to traverse into this untested area.Anybody who asks me about Dollhouse, I'm going to point to those themes. That's what got my dander up the other week when I posted about the NPR interviewer who seemed so unfamiliar with JW's work. Despite her repeated attempts to accuse him of creating the theme of the actives in order to explore some sort of "sick male fantasy", I knew we could expect something much more though-provoking from Whedon. I hope the interview didn't turn off any potential viewers. On the other hand, if the interview caused anyone to tune in looking for "sick male fantasy" material, perhaps it's given them some food for thought instead. Part of the problem with the Jackie Lyden interview is that she's on record as being a BtVS s1-3 nonshipping fan (fannish jargon, but that's the efficient way to transfer specialist knowledge, no?). I remember her commentary on the end of the series- when she was among those who hated Spike's sacrifice as a betrayal of the series' feminist principles. Julia, I find her diegesis lacks subtlety
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Post by Sue on Feb 22, 2009 13:45:15 GMT -5
A good article that illuminated some points of this episode to me: blog.zap2it.com/ithappenedlastnight/2009/02/dollhouse-puts-the-shoulder-to-the-wheel.html Turns out this week's client (think Green Arrow by way of Patrick Bateman by way of Outward Bound) was in fact hired by Alpha for the ultimate purpose of shaking Echo from her stupor. Supposed playboy Richard O'Connell didn't just say, "Prove you're not just an echo," so writer/director Steven S. DeKnight could throw in a cute meta-line our way. That line comes from Alpha's own lips, imprinted upon "Richard" in a way similar to the "neural lock and key" programmed by Topher. This week's engagement was designed by Alpha for the specific purpose of unlocking those keys inside Echo's brain and create a "composite" of personalities and memories.
i didn't see anything at all in this episode that definitively said it WAS a plot by alpha. it's interesting that some writers about tv are assuming it rather than entertaining it as one possibility. i think it's also a possibility that alpha killed the fake ranger guy because he was posing a threat to echo, or that there's some "lower ranked" alternate possibility like that somebody was setting it up to make the dollhouse believe it was alpha (perhaps to sow doubt among the employees, perhaps for some other reason). Agree. I wondered where he got that "was in FACT hired by Alpha" certitude. Not saying it may not be fact, just not sure we can at this moment be totally certain---unless I missed something (which is always a possibility.)
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Post by Sue on Feb 22, 2009 13:49:44 GMT -5
That's what got my dander up the other week when I posted about the NPR interviewer who seemed so unfamiliar with JW's work. Despite her repeated attempts to accuse him of creating the theme of the actives in order to explore some sort of "sick male fantasy", I knew we could expect something much more though-provoking from Whedon. I hope the interview didn't turn off any potential viewers. On the other hand, if the interview caused anyone to tune in looking for "sick male fantasy" material, perhaps it's given them some food for thought instead. Part of the problem with the Jackie Lyden interview is that she's on record as being a BtVS s1-3 nonshipping fan (fannish jargon, but that's the efficient way to transfer specialist knowledge, no?). I remember her commentary on the end of the series- when she was among those who hated Spike's sacrifice as a betrayal of the series' feminist principles.[/green]
Julia, I find her diegesis lacks subtlety[sarcasm] Yeah, because in order to be a true feminist one has to deny the contributions of half of the human populace? Or prove that one can do it all alone without any men? [/sarcasm] As if Joss (or any thinking human being) would be so narrow minded.
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Post by Shan on Feb 22, 2009 15:36:37 GMT -5
That's what got my dander up the other week when I posted about the NPR interviewer who seemed so unfamiliar with JW's work. Despite her repeated attempts to accuse him of creating the theme of the actives in order to explore some sort of "sick male fantasy", I knew we could expect something much more though-provoking from Whedon. I hope the interview didn't turn off any potential viewers. On the other hand, if the interview caused anyone to tune in looking for "sick male fantasy" material, perhaps it's given them some food for thought instead. Part of the problem with the Jackie Lyden interview is that she's on record as being a BtVS s1-3 nonshipping fan (fannish jargon, but that's the efficient way to transfer specialist knowledge, no?). I remember her commentary on the end of the series- when she was among those who hated Spike's sacrifice as a betrayal of the series' feminist principles.Julia, I find her diegesis lacks subtlety ...being a less erudite way to agree with you.
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