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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 13, 2005 7:50:13 GMT -5
SOL made a point about "Olivia can draw; Giles can't." That's very "Angel & Spike." Angel can draw; Spike - judging from his sketch of Angel in Chosen - has abilities much like Giles. I always thought that Angel drawing in Chosen (made by Joss himself, by the way) was a deliberate caricature, because Spike can draw pretty well  I had always thought that the drawings of Buffy that Spike had were drawn by Angel and kept by buffy amongst her pictures. |
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Post by Moscow Watcher on Jul 13, 2005 9:05:49 GMT -5
Well, maybe. There are definite similarities in style, but the drawings are too indistinct to be sure. Pity nobody asked Fury about the pics in "Buffy temple" during Sacramento con! He did commentaries to Crush, and, according to reports, was mainly teasing fans. "at every scene with Spike looking sad or Buffy being bitchy to Spike, Fury would whisper, "He's EVIL!" At every shot of Spike vamping, etc., Fury would squeal, "See? EVIL!" At every "aww" of Spike sympathy from the audience, Fury would moan, "Evil." It was pretty obvious that he wasn't really trying to convince any of us to change our minds -- I think he long ago realized the futility of that -- he was just teasing back and forth with us, and everyone in the audience seemed to be having a good time with it. He also threw in lots of fake dialogue, sound effects, etc., that had us rolling with laughter. " (from SockMonkey report) I'm soooo OT here - sorry. Re Hush I think that Joss is intrigued by the notion of communication in general and verbal communication in particular. I started watching Firefly and I'm enchanted by his idea to insert Chinese phrases here and there - the way it's impossible to know for sure if it's just throwaway phrases or some information crucial to the plot development. I'm talking from the viewpoint of a foreigner who sometimes watches DVDs in English and always has a dilemma of watching with or without subtitles. My foreign ears can't catch 100% of the dialogues - usually I understand about 80% if I watch without subtitles. But the very situation when you're delving into foreign speech is fascinating - you subconsciously try to figure out the meaning of the scene relying on non-verbal aspects - characters' gesticulation, expressions on their faces etc. When you watch the film without fully understanding the dialogues, you tend to fill the blanks with additional meanings. I did an interesting experiment once - I watched Hush in black-and white (I have an mpg videofile which can be watched with a program that allows different manipulations with brightness, colors etc). For me the episode played *very* differently when I watched it in a eerily "silent movie" mode. It was more weird, more creepy and, in a way, more convincing.  Anyway, the most powerful aspect, for me, is the contraposition of two sequences which, in a way, describe two opposite situations when people are silent around each other. The first is the scene Olivia arrival - she and Giles exchange some trivial words and proceed to actions. Obviously they're so comfortable around each other they can easily skip the conversation part. The second scene is between Buffy and Riley in the end. They don't talk, but the reason of their silence is completely opposite - they're too uncomfortable around each other. |
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Post by Rachael on Jul 13, 2005 9:58:10 GMT -5
So, even though as far as canon goes, I am a Spuffy through and through, I think the two Buffy/Riley kisses in here to be very very nice and sexy! Especially the dream kiss at the start - even with the whole freaksome "doin' it in front of the class" vibe. Yeah - since I'm not a Spuffy (just...I have issues with the whole immortal/not immortal relationship, if for no other reason) - I still have sadness that Riley and Buffy met at the wrong time in their respective lives. A few years down the line, and she'd be Mrs. Finn.... |
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 13, 2005 11:24:30 GMT -5
Well, maybe. There are definite similarities in style, but the drawings are too indistinct to be sure. Pity nobody asked Fury about the pics in "Buffy temple" during Sacramento con! He did commentaries to Crush, and, according to reports, was mainly teasing fans. "at every scene with Spike looking sad or Buffy being bitchy to Spike, Fury would whisper, "He's EVIL!" At every shot of Spike vamping, etc., Fury would squeal, "See? EVIL!" At every "aww" of Spike sympathy from the audience, Fury would moan, "Evil." It was pretty obvious that he wasn't really trying to convince any of us to change our minds -- I think he long ago realized the futility of that -- he was just teasing back and forth with us, and everyone in the audience seemed to be having a good time with it. He also threw in lots of fake dialogue, sound effects, etc., that had us rolling with laughter. " (from SockMonkey report) I'm soooo OT here - sorry. Re Hush I think that Joss is intrigued by the notion of communication in general and verbal communication in particular. I started watching Firefly and I'm enchanted by his idea to insert Chinese phrases here and there - the way it's impossible to know for sure if it's just throwaway phrases or some information crucial to the plot development. I'm talking from the viewpoint of a foreigner who sometimes watches DVDs in English and always has a dilemma of watching with or without subtitles. My foreign ears can't catch 100% of the dialogues - usually I understand about 80% if I watch without subtitles. But the very situation when you're delving into foreign speech is fascinating - you subconsciously try to figure out the meaning of the scene relying on non-verbal aspects - characters' gesticulation, expressions on their faces etc. When you watch the film without fully understanding the dialogues, you tend to fill the blanks with additional meanings. I did an interesting experiment once - I watched Hush in black-and white (I have an mpg videofile which can be watched with a program that allows different manipulations with brightness, colors etc). For me the episode played *very* differently when I watched it in a eerily "silent movie" mode. It was more weird, more creepy and, in a way, more convincing. Anyway, the most powerful aspect, for me, is the contraposition of two sequences which, in a way, describe two opposite situations when people are silent around each other. The first is the scene Olivia arrival - she and Giles exchange some trivial words and proceed to actions. Obviously they're so comfortable around each other they can easily skip the conversation part. The second scene is between Buffy and Riley in the end. They don't talk, but the reason of their silence is completely opposite - they're too uncomfortable around each other. watching it in black and white... that's a really neat idea! I wish I could do that. |
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Post by Lola m on Jul 13, 2005 12:46:53 GMT -5
I always thought that Angel drawing in Chosen (made by Joss himself, by the way) was a deliberate caricature, because Spike can draw pretty well I had always thought that the drawings of Buffy that Spike had were drawn by Angel and kept by buffy amongst her pictures. Interesting question. They do look somewhat similar to Angelus' (or Angel's) drawings - but of course we can't be sure since we're not specifically shown where Spike gets them. But really, it's very intriging if they are Angel(us)' drawings because then the act of Spike acquiring them has several possibilities. If he stole them from Buffy, from her room or from the basement storage (as we see him taking other things), then it means Buffy kept them. Which, especially if they are Angelus' stalker-time drawings is . . . an interesting insight into Buffy. If he stole them from Angel, it is intriguing because that would mean he stole them ostensibly before he (Spike) had an interest in Buffy. So I would assume taking them from Buffy. Of course, they could be drawn by Spike, and he just was being mean and goofy with his drawing of Angel on the punching bag. Or, they could be very innocuous drawings by a third party - her mom or from school, etc. Hmmmmmm. It's a puzzlement! |
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Post by Lola m on Jul 13, 2005 12:53:41 GMT -5
Well, maybe. There are definite similarities in style, but the drawings are too indistinct to be sure. Pity nobody asked Fury about the pics in "Buffy temple" during Sacramento con! He did commentaries to Crush, and, according to reports, was mainly teasing fans. "at every scene with Spike looking sad or Buffy being bitchy to Spike, Fury would whisper, "He's EVIL!" At every shot of Spike vamping, etc., Fury would squeal, "See? EVIL!" At every "aww" of Spike sympathy from the audience, Fury would moan, "Evil." It was pretty obvious that he wasn't really trying to convince any of us to change our minds -- I think he long ago realized the futility of that -- he was just teasing back and forth with us, and everyone in the audience seemed to be having a good time with it. He also threw in lots of fake dialogue, sound effects, etc., that had us rolling with laughter. " (from SockMonkey report) I'm soooo OT here - sorry. Re Hush I think that Joss is intrigued by the notion of communication in general and verbal communication in particular. I started watching Firefly and I'm enchanted by his idea to insert Chinese phrases here and there - the way it's impossible to know for sure if it's just throwaway phrases or some information crucial to the plot development. I'm talking from the viewpoint of a foreigner who sometimes watches DVDs in English and always has a dilemma of watching with or without subtitles. My foreign ears can't catch 100% of the dialogues - usually I understand about 80% if I watch without subtitles. But the very situation when you're delving into foreign speech is fascinating - you subconsciously try to figure out the meaning of the scene relying on non-verbal aspects - characters' gesticulation, expressions on their faces etc. When you watch the film without fully understanding the dialogues, you tend to fill the blanks with additional meanings. I did an interesting experiment once - I watched Hush in black-and white (I have an mpg videofile which can be watched with a program that allows different manipulations with brightness, colors etc). For me the episode played *very* differently when I watched it in a eerily "silent movie" mode. It was more weird, more creepy and, in a way, more convincing. Anyway, the most powerful aspect, for me, is the contraposition of two sequences which, in a way, describe two opposite situations when people are silent around each other. The first is the scene Olivia arrival - she and Giles exchange some trivial words and proceed to actions. Obviously they're so comfortable around each other they can easily skip the conversation part. The second scene is between Buffy and Riley in the end. They don't talk, but the reason of their silence is completely opposite - they're too uncomfortable around each other. Poor David Fury. He finally got to a better place with the Spike fan-love, but he was sooooo bothered by it at first.  The idea of watching it in black and white is fascinating. Oddly enough, considering we're talking about an ep with much of the usual auditory signals (dialog) removed, I have done a similar thing with some scary movies - only removed the sound instead of the color. But I have played with muting the sound entirely. Mostly to see the difference the music makes to creating a "scary" feel. It's amazing how many very scary moments become virtually scare-free, or at least much less scary, with the sound gone. Which brings me winging back to the idea someone (Liz? maybe) mentioned earlier that it would have been interesting to show some deaf characters who were vitually unaffected by the loss of speech. I hadn't thought of comparing Giles/Olivia with Buffy/Riley that way. That's very interesting. Plus, they have an interesting mirrored or opposite arc. Because this is the time when Giles and Olivia are moving toward the end of their relationship and Buffy and Riley are just starting theirs. |
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Post by Lola m on Jul 13, 2005 12:55:40 GMT -5
So, even though as far as canon goes, I am a Spuffy through and through, I think the two Buffy/Riley kisses in here to be very very nice and sexy! Especially the dream kiss at the start - even with the whole freaksome "doin' it in front of the class" vibe. Yeah - since I'm not a Spuffy (just...I have issues with the whole immortal/not immortal relationship, if for no other reason) - I still have sadness that Riley and Buffy met at the wrong time in their respective lives. A few years down the line, and she'd be Mrs. Finn.... Buffy and Riley certainly got together at a time in their lives that was not the best, and went through events that didn't help much. But then again, these kind of circumstances would always be happening in the life of the slayer. |
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Post by Rachael on Jul 13, 2005 14:01:37 GMT -5
Yeah - since I'm not a Spuffy (just...I have issues with the whole immortal/not immortal relationship, if for no other reason) - I still have sadness that Riley and Buffy met at the wrong time in their respective lives. A few years down the line, and she'd be Mrs. Finn.... Buffy and Riley certainly got together at a time in their lives that was not the best, and went through events that didn't help much. But then again, these kind of circumstances would always be happening in the life of the slayer. I wasn't so much thinking about the external events, and more about their respective reactions to those events. Buffy was much more mature after Season 6 than she had been at the end of Season 5, and Riley - it seemed he learned how to see a woman as his partner, rather than put her up on a pedestal the way I thought he alway did with Buffy. |
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Post by spring stopping by on Jul 13, 2005 16:17:14 GMT -5
I always thought that Angel drawing in Chosen (made by Joss himself, by the way) was a deliberate caricature, because Spike can draw pretty well I had always thought that the drawings of Buffy that Spike had were drawn by Angel and kept by buffy amongst her pictures. Yeah, me too. I assumed those were Angel's drawings. They just "look like" his style we've seen before, and we know Spike has been stealing pics and clothing from Buffy's house - so I figured he stole these as well. We never see any evidence that Spike can draw, and we do see evidence that he can't. I sketch portraits, and even if I was doing a deliberate hatchet job, my drawing wouldn't look like Spike's, of Angel. That is the drawing of someone who doesn't draw, and isn't much interested in drawing. And it really fits the overall characters of Angel & Spike, that Angel can draw, and Spike can't. |
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Post by Lola m on Jul 13, 2005 16:32:30 GMT -5
Buffy and Riley certainly got together at a time in their lives that was not the best, and went through events that didn't help much. But then again, these kind of circumstances would always be happening in the life of the slayer. I wasn't so much thinking about the external events, and more about their respective reactions to those events. Buffy was much more mature after Season 6 than she had been at the end of Season 5, and Riley - it seemed he learned how to see a woman as his partner, rather than put her up on a pedestal the way I thought he alway did with Buffy. I see what you're saying. Yes, it's easy to forget how relatively "young" in terms of some life experiences they are when they first meet. Experienced in terms of fighting demons, but not so much in relationships and so on. |
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Post by Pixi on Jul 14, 2005 6:29:57 GMT -5
Well, maybe. There are definite similarities in style, but the drawings are too indistinct to be sure. Pity nobody asked Fury about the pics in "Buffy temple" during Sacramento con! He did commentaries to Crush, and, according to reports, was mainly teasing fans. "at every scene with Spike looking sad or Buffy being bitchy to Spike, Fury would whisper, "He's EVIL!" At every shot of Spike vamping, etc., Fury would squeal, "See? EVIL!" At every "aww" of Spike sympathy from the audience, Fury would moan, "Evil." It was pretty obvious that he wasn't really trying to convince any of us to change our minds -- I think he long ago realized the futility of that -- he was just teasing back and forth with us, and everyone in the audience seemed to be having a good time with it. He also threw in lots of fake dialogue, sound effects, etc., that had us rolling with laughter. " (from SockMonkey report) I'm soooo OT here - sorry. Re Hush I think that Joss is intrigued by the notion of communication in general and verbal communication in particular. I started watching Firefly and I'm enchanted by his idea to insert Chinese phrases here and there - the way it's impossible to know for sure if it's just throwaway phrases or some information crucial to the plot development. I'm talking from the viewpoint of a foreigner who sometimes watches DVDs in English and always has a dilemma of watching with or without subtitles. My foreign ears can't catch 100% of the dialogues - usually I understand about 80% if I watch without subtitles. But the very situation when you're delving into foreign speech is fascinating - you subconsciously try to figure out the meaning of the scene relying on non-verbal aspects - characters' gesticulation, expressions on their faces etc. When you watch the film without fully understanding the dialogues, you tend to fill the blanks with additional meanings. I did an interesting experiment once - I watched Hush in black-and white (I have an mpg videofile which can be watched with a program that allows different manipulations with brightness, colors etc). For me the episode played *very* differently when I watched it in a eerily "silent movie" mode. It was more weird, more creepy and, in a way, more convincing. Anyway, the most powerful aspect, for me, is the contraposition of two sequences which, in a way, describe two opposite situations when people are silent around each other. The first is the scene Olivia arrival - she and Giles exchange some trivial words and proceed to actions. Obviously they're so comfortable around each other they can easily skip the conversation part. The second scene is between Buffy and Riley in the end. They don't talk, but the reason of their silence is completely opposite - they're too uncomfortable around each other. I love this black and white picture. Thanks for posting it. And I agree with your premise - how much scarier things are in black and white. I think that's why so many of the new pictures - horror movies - besides for the lack of decent writing of course ;D - is that all the CGI and blood spurting everywhere has taken away the mystery, the terror of seeing something scary in the dark. Great insights here Moscow Watcher, thanks for posting them. And I agree - interesting contrast between Giles/Oliva and Buffy/Riley. Also interestingly enough - both doomed relationships. Because when Giles did finally open up to Olivia - communicate honestly with her i.e. our whole theme of communication - she couldn't deal either. Wearing masks/hiding identies kept both relationships floating for awhile but in the end - neither Riley nor Olivia could accept what Giles and Buffy really are. And then there's that whole thing of Buffy being destined to be with Spike. Hee, hee. (oh just being light-hearted here) |
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Post by Lola m on Jul 14, 2005 7:14:21 GMT -5
Well, maybe. There are definite similarities in style, but the drawings are too indistinct to be sure. Pity nobody asked Fury about the pics in "Buffy temple" during Sacramento con! He did commentaries to Crush, and, according to reports, was mainly teasing fans. "at every scene with Spike looking sad or Buffy being bitchy to Spike, Fury would whisper, "He's EVIL!" At every shot of Spike vamping, etc., Fury would squeal, "See? EVIL!" At every "aww" of Spike sympathy from the audience, Fury would moan, "Evil." It was pretty obvious that he wasn't really trying to convince any of us to change our minds -- I think he long ago realized the futility of that -- he was just teasing back and forth with us, and everyone in the audience seemed to be having a good time with it. He also threw in lots of fake dialogue, sound effects, etc., that had us rolling with laughter. " (from SockMonkey report) I'm soooo OT here - sorry. Re Hush I think that Joss is intrigued by the notion of communication in general and verbal communication in particular. I started watching Firefly and I'm enchanted by his idea to insert Chinese phrases here and there - the way it's impossible to know for sure if it's just throwaway phrases or some information crucial to the plot development. I'm talking from the viewpoint of a foreigner who sometimes watches DVDs in English and always has a dilemma of watching with or without subtitles. My foreign ears can't catch 100% of the dialogues - usually I understand about 80% if I watch without subtitles. But the very situation when you're delving into foreign speech is fascinating - you subconsciously try to figure out the meaning of the scene relying on non-verbal aspects - characters' gesticulation, expressions on their faces etc. When you watch the film without fully understanding the dialogues, you tend to fill the blanks with additional meanings. I did an interesting experiment once - I watched Hush in black-and white (I have an mpg videofile which can be watched with a program that allows different manipulations with brightness, colors etc). For me the episode played *very* differently when I watched it in a eerily "silent movie" mode. It was more weird, more creepy and, in a way, more convincing. Anyway, the most powerful aspect, for me, is the contraposition of two sequences which, in a way, describe two opposite situations when people are silent around each other. The first is the scene Olivia arrival - she and Giles exchange some trivial words and proceed to actions. Obviously they're so comfortable around each other they can easily skip the conversation part. The second scene is between Buffy and Riley in the end. They don't talk, but the reason of their silence is completely opposite - they're too uncomfortable around each other. I love this black and white picture. Thanks for posting it. And I agree with your premise - how much scarier things are in black and white. I think that's why so many of the new pictures - horror movies - besides for the lack of decent writing of course ;D - is that all the CGI and blood spurting everywhere has taken away the mystery, the terror of seeing something scary in the dark. Great insights here Moscow Watcher, thanks for posting them. And I agree - interesting contrast between Giles/Oliva and Buffy/Riley. Also interestingly enough - both doomed relationships. Because when Giles did finally open up to Olivia - communicate honestly with her i.e. our whole theme of communication - she couldn't deal either. Wearing masks/hiding identies kept both relationships floating for awhile but in the end - neither Riley nor Olivia could accept what Giles and Buffy really are. And then there's that whole thing of Buffy being destined to be with Spike. Hee, hee. (oh just being light-hearted here) Buffy - Spike - destiny? How could that possibly be light-hearted? ;D ;D |
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Post by Lola m on Jul 14, 2005 7:19:52 GMT -5
I re-re-watched some of my favorite bits of Hush last night.
How much do I love the scene with Spike and Giles and Xander and Anya?
Xander: Ok, . . . remember how we talked about private conversations and how they're less private when they're in front of my friends?
Spike: Oh, we're not your friends. Go on.
And
Giles: I have a friend who's coming to town and I'd like us to be alone.
Anya: Oh, you mean an orgasm friend?
Giles: Yes, that's exactly the most appalling thing you could have said.
Just. So. Perfect.
Plus, you have that lack-of-Weetabix fueled Spike bounce and sprawl on the couch. Which is lovely. ;D
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Post by Onjel on Jul 14, 2005 7:25:43 GMT -5
I re-re-watched some of my favorite bits of Hush last night. How much do I love the scene with Spike and Giles and Xander and Anya? Xander: Ok, . . . remember how we talked about private conversations and how they're less private when they're in front of my friends? Spike: Oh, we're not your friends. Go on. And Giles: I have a friend who's coming to town and I'd like us to be alone. Anya: Oh, you mean an orgasm friend? Giles: Yes, that's exactly the most appalling thing you could have said. Just. So. Perfect. Plus, you have that lack-of-Weetabix fueled Spike bounce and sprawl on the couch. Which is lovely. ;D Oh yes! I loved that bit of interaction! Marvelously written and more marvelously performed! I don't have the DVDs for Season 4, so thanks for reminding me of the fun dialogue! |
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Post by Pixi on Jul 14, 2005 9:50:34 GMT -5
I re-re-watched some of my favorite bits of Hush last night. How much do I love the scene with Spike and Giles and Xander and Anya? Xander: Ok, . . . remember how we talked about private conversations and how they're less private when they're in front of my friends? Spike: Oh, we're not your friends. Go on. And Giles: I have a friend who's coming to town and I'd like us to be alone. Anya: Oh, you mean an orgasm friend? Giles: Yes, that's exactly the most appalling thing you could have said. Just. So. Perfect. Plus, you have that lack-of-Weetabix fueled Spike bounce and sprawl on the couch. Which is lovely. ;D These lines are some of my favorite all-time lines in the entire series. So, so fun. I always think of orgasm friend now whenever that type of situation arises in RL. Hee, hee. So little dialogue but all of it so, so effective. I love Hush!!!!! |
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