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Post by William the Bloody on Dec 30, 2003 2:45:23 GMT -5
Written by Joss Whedon Directed by Joss Whedon Air date: 12/14/99
From oput of a fairytale comes a group of murderous creatures known as The Gentlemen: first they steal everyone's voices, then they begin to collect human hearts.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 10, 2005 20:27:28 GMT -5
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Post by Rachael on Jul 10, 2005 22:02:26 GMT -5
Well, so - this is one of those episodes where they just hit you over the head with the theme for the entire show. Not that I'm complaining, mind you. Prof. Walsh says it in the teaser/dream sequence: "We're talking about communication...language...not the same thing." The entire episode is about talking vs. communicating, and how talking itself can prevent actual communication. The word "talk" itself appears in pretty much every conversation that happens before the Gentlemen take away the voices of Sunnydale: - Anya (to Xander, about his not caring about her): "I think we should talk about it now." Talking about it isn't actually helping, though. - Willow (to Buffy, about the Wicca group): "Talk, all talk." - Buffy (to Willow about herself and Riley): "See above, re: talk, all talk." and later: "I get nervous and I start babbling...and every time we talk, I have to lie." She can't seem to get to the kissing of the boy she likes because of the babbling, and also she hates having to lie to him. - Riley (to Forrest): "You're naturally inclined to talk too much." - Olivia (to Giles): "That's enough small talk, don't you think?" Most of these scenes show how talking is either not helping to solve a problem, or actually making it worse. And let's not forget Tara and Willow - who might never have communicated, at all, if Tara had to talk to make it happen. So, Act 1 is all about talking. Acts 2 and 3 are about communication. With their voices gone, Buffy and Riley manage the kissing thing just fine. 'Cause, apparently, there's no way to babble and interrupt it with questions about paper grading. But more significantly, the entire affair draws out the truth about both Riley and Buffy, and lets them stop lying to one another, and start communicating honestly. Similarly, Xander manages to communicate the strength of his feelings for and to Anya by virtue of his attacking Spike - actions speak louder than words. When he thinks Anya has been harmed, he goes postal on the person who he believes hurt her - and though he tried to tell her how he felt, showing her works much better. Finally, Tara and Willow manage to connect, in the literal sense, after the voice loss leads Tara to seek out the only other potential witch she knows. And the connection between Tara and Willow makes the two of them, together, greater than either of them separately - it surely didn't appear that the effect on the soda machine was additive; rather it seemed that Tara was amplifying Willow's powers severalfold. After it's all over, and Buffy and Riley have saved the world (or, at least, Sunnydale), everyone goes back to "talking" again: Tara + Willow: "They didn't seem to know...what they were talking about." (Interesting that here, again, they're a single unit - two people, one sentence.) Olivia: "All those times you used to talk to me about witchcraft and darkness and the like - I thought you were just being pretentious." And the talking here is ominous - it ends with the implication that Giles may lose Olivia over her having experienced his real life. They've finally actually communicated...and it's freaking her out. Riley: "I guess we have to talk." Again, sort of ominous, but no actual reason for the feeling is given.
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Post by Rachael on Jul 10, 2005 22:07:30 GMT -5
I've got lots of other stuff, but I'm gonna go with Olivia and Giles, for now.
So...who IS Olivia? Clearly, she's Giles' orgasm friend, and that may be the best way to describe her. The evidence presented in the episode indicates that they've known each other a long time, and are very comfortable around one another...and yet, it's the first we've ever heard of her. We were given to understand that Giles is awkward with women he likes (in Seasons 1 and 2), but here is a woman who he's known for a long time, and who drops by to spend the weekend shagging him...who IS she?
It illustrates just how much of Giles' pre-Buffy life we never do find out about. The relationship with Olivia predates his falling in love with Jenny (I think it's safe to assume)...and continues after her death.
I have no answers - but I find the Olivia subplot fascinating.
Oh, and - Olivia draws, and Giles doesn't. ;D
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Post by Lola m on Jul 11, 2005 7:13:37 GMT -5
Well, so - this is one of those episodes where they just hit you over the head with the theme for the entire show. Not that I'm complaining, mind you. Prof. Walsh says it in the teaser/dream sequence: "We're talking about communication...language...not the same thing." The entire episode is about talking vs. communicating, and how talking itself can prevent actual communication. The word "talk" itself appears in pretty much every conversation that happens before the Gentlemen take away the voices of Sunnydale: - Anya (to Xander, about his not caring about her): "I think we should talk about it now." Talking about it isn't actually helping, though. - Willow (to Buffy, about the Wicca group): "Talk, all talk." - Buffy (to Willow about herself and Riley): "See above, re: talk, all talk." and later: "I get nervous and I start babbling...and every time we talk, I have to lie." She can't seem to get to the kissing of the boy she likes because of the babbling, and also she hates having to lie to him. - Riley (to Forrest): "You're naturally inclined to talk too much." - Olivia (to Giles): "That's enough small talk, don't you think?" Most of these scenes show how talking is either not helping to solve a problem, or actually making it worse. And let's not forget Tara and Willow - who might never have communicated, at all, if Tara had to talk to make it happen. So, Act 1 is all about talking. Acts 2 and 3 are about communication. With their voices gone, Buffy and Riley manage the kissing thing just fine. 'Cause, apparently, there's no way to babble and interrupt it with questions about paper grading. But more significantly, the entire affair draws out the truth about both Riley and Buffy, and lets them stop lying to one another, and start communicating honestly. Similarly, Xander manages to communicate the strength of his feelings for and to Anya by virtue of his attacking Spike - actions speak louder than words. When he thinks Anya has been harmed, he goes postal on the person who he believes hurt her - and though he tried to tell her how he felt, showing her works much better. Finally, Tara and Willow manage to connect, in the literal sense, after the voice loss leads Tara to seek out the only other potential witch she knows. And the connection between Tara and Willow makes the two of them, together, greater than either of them separately - it surely didn't appear that the effect on the soda machine was additive; rather it seemed that Tara was amplifying Willow's powers severalfold. After it's all over, and Buffy and Riley have saved the world (or, at least, Sunnydale), everyone goes back to "talking" again: Tara + Willow: "They didn't seem to know...what they were talking about." (Interesting that here, again, they're a single unit - two people, one sentence.) Olivia: "All those times you used to talk to me about witchcraft and darkness and the like - I thought you were just being pretentious." And the talking here is ominous - it ends with the implication that Giles may lose Olivia over her having experienced his real life. They've finally actually communicated...and it's freaking her out. Riley: "I guess we have to talk." Again, sort of ominous, but no actual reason for the feeling is given. **nods nods nods** **bounce bounce bounce** It was interesting to realize I had never listened to the commentary on this episode before. I watched it this weekend and was fascinated by what Joss says. I mean, I expected him to confirm that the theme of the ep is "communication", but he does more than that. He talked about how he only realized the "theme" himself once he started writing, but that then he also realized that absolutely everything in the story related to the theme. Much more so than other episodes, that everything, every line, every scene, every plot point, was matched to the theme. And he said a cool line, that he wanted to show how "language can interfere with communication". That once we put something into language, once we name it, it narrows the meaning, starts boxing things in. That people use language to hide or obscure their meaning.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 11, 2005 7:15:39 GMT -5
I've got lots of other stuff, but I'm gonna go with Olivia and Giles, for now. So...who IS Olivia? Clearly, she's Giles' orgasm friend, and that may be the best way to describe her. The evidence presented in the episode indicates that they've known each other a long time, and are very comfortable around one another...and yet, it's the first we've ever heard of her. We were given to understand that Giles is awkward with women he likes (in Seasons 1 and 2), but here is a woman who he's known for a long time, and who drops by to spend the weekend shagging him...who IS she? It illustrates just how much of Giles' pre-Buffy life we never do find out about. The relationship with Olivia predates his falling in love with Jenny (I think it's safe to assume)...and continues after her death. I have no answers - but I find the Olivia subplot fascinating. Oh, and - Olivia draws, and Giles doesn't. ;D I really like and am interested in Olivia, too. One of the saddest moments in the ep is right at the end, when they're talking and you can just see in each of their faces what is happening. She is now understanding what his world is really like. And he is now understanding that she can't live like that. I often wonder if they got back together when he went back to England.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 11, 2005 7:17:21 GMT -5
A little trivia question for you all.
Of our two episodes this week, (Hush and Hero), which actually takes place “first” in the Jossverse timeline?
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Post by Onjel on Jul 11, 2005 7:24:05 GMT -5
I've got lots of other stuff, but I'm gonna go with Olivia and Giles, for now. So...who IS Olivia? Clearly, she's Giles' orgasm friend, and that may be the best way to describe her. The evidence presented in the episode indicates that they've known each other a long time, and are very comfortable around one another...and yet, it's the first we've ever heard of her. We were given to understand that Giles is awkward with women he likes (in Seasons 1 and 2), but here is a woman who he's known for a long time, and who drops by to spend the weekend shagging him...who IS she? It illustrates just how much of Giles' pre-Buffy life we never do find out about. The relationship with Olivia predates his falling in love with Jenny (I think it's safe to assume)...and continues after her death. I have no answers - but I find the Olivia subplot fascinating. Oh, and - Olivia draws, and Giles doesn't. ;D I really like and am interested in Olivia, too. One of the saddest moments in the ep is right at the end, when they're talking and you can just see in each of their faces what is happening. She is now understanding what his world is really like. And he is now understanding that she can't live like that. I often wonder if they got back together when he went back to England. Me too! I liked the fact that Giles finally got to be someone other than watcher-man, and that he got some action. Olivia just makes the questions about Giles' pre-watcher activities that much more prominent in my mind. It's apparent that Olivia was not involved in Ripper activities, so perhaps they first met when he became active in the CoW. I can't recall, but is there any evidence that she knows of his "secret identity" as a watcher and Buffy's identity as the Slayer?
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Post by Pixi on Jul 11, 2005 7:41:40 GMT -5
I love this episode. Truly love it. Since I like scary movies this plays into that in that it is the scariest Buffy episode written. A masterpiece in my opinion.
I too wonder about Olivia. I think it so clearly delineates that yes indeed - here Giles is the grownup and the others truly aren't the grownups. Not yet at least. Because grownups do have pasts. Messy, complicated, unexplained pasts. And thank God Giles is getting some. It was nice to see that.
The best thing this episode did was combine true horror with the ultimate classic funny moment. The little show in the classroom with every single S'cubie acting in character from Anya's munching on popcorn to Buffy's horror at the way Giles drew her hips too big.
Hee, hee. I just love that scene.
I felt the monsters were so scary. That skeletal grin, the poor victims. I felt so bad for the victims. Television victims are so seldom explored - I mean you can't explore their character because it would take too much time. But I always feel intensely for them - whether they are some gruesome corpse on CSI on a terrified student who can't scream while their heart is being cut out.
Shudder!!!!!
I know this episode was all about communication but in a weird way you could also say it illustrated the dangers of growing up. At least for the college student - he went away to college and his heart was torn out and he couldnt' speak or do anything about it.
Doesn't that always happen? Your heart gets torn out and all you can do is watch.
Okay - totally weird segue there.
Anyway - I'm not a Riley fan at all and there was not a moment I was ever a fan of him being with Buffy so there were some things I didn't like about this episode including the whole we have to talk bit.
But it was a nice slam bam rousing ending with Buffy and the soldiers each doing their part to kill the Gentlemen.
Gentlemen - shudder!!!!!!!
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Post by Karen on Jul 11, 2005 13:40:05 GMT -5
A little trivia question for you all. Of our two episodes this week, ( Hush and Hero), which actually takes place “first” in the Jossverse timeline? Huh. Good question. Let's see. It was Pangs, Something Blue then Hush. Buffy went to see Angel after he heard he was in Sunnydale ( Pangs). IWRY was the episode right before Hero. Um. What was the question? ;D Oh, yeah - It appears that Hero came before Hush. I think. Man, Joss was cranking out the great Buffy/Angel stuff that year. Per Jan's suggestion, I'm moving my short comment from the main board to here. Yay! 2 of my picks made the top 10! And " Hush". Wow - what is it about this episode that is so scary? The creepy, smiley, floaty gentlemen? Or their silent straight-jacket wearing, limpy co-horts? Or jsut the whole not being able to scream in fear?
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Post by Rachael on Jul 11, 2005 16:59:11 GMT -5
A little trivia question for you all. Of our two episodes this week, ( Hush and Hero), which actually takes place “first” in the Jossverse timeline? Huh. Good question. Let's see. It was Pangs, Something Blue then Hush. Buffy went to see Angel after he heard he was in Sunnydale ( Pangs). IWRY was the episode right before Hero. Um. What was the question? ;D Oh, yeah - It appears that Hero came before Hush. I think. Man, Joss was cranking out the great Buffy/Angel stuff that year. Per Jan's suggestion, I'm moving my short comment from the main board to here. Yay! 2 of my picks made the top 10! And " Hush". Wow - what is it about this episode that is so scary? The creepy, smiley, floaty gentlemen? Or their silent straight-jacket wearing, limpy co-horts? Or jsut the whole not being able to scream in fear? I'm voting for "carving your heart out with a teeny-tiny scalpel", myself. 'Cause, eww, the mess and the time is must take...and you can't even scream...although you can, just no one will hear you. In Sunnydale, no one can hear you scream....
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Post by Pixi on Jul 11, 2005 17:55:25 GMT -5
Huh. Good question. Let's see. It was Pangs, Something Blue then Hush. Buffy went to see Angel after he heard he was in Sunnydale ( Pangs). IWRY was the episode right before Hero. Um. What was the question? ;D Oh, yeah - It appears that Hero came before Hush. I think. Man, Joss was cranking out the great Buffy/Angel stuff that year. Per Jan's suggestion, I'm moving my short comment from the main board to here. Yay! 2 of my picks made the top 10! And " Hush". Wow - what is it about this episode that is so scary? The creepy, smiley, floaty gentlemen? Or their silent straight-jacket wearing, limpy co-horts? Or jsut the whole not being able to scream in fear? I'm voting for "carving your heart out with a teeny-tiny scalpel", myself. 'Cause, eww, the mess and the time is must take...and you can't even scream...although you can, just no one will hear you. In Sunnydale, no one can hear you scream.... I love it - an Alien reference. (another all-time fav)
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Post by Lola m on Jul 11, 2005 19:03:53 GMT -5
I love this episode. Truly love it. Since I like scary movies this plays into that in that it is the scariest Buffy episode written. A masterpiece in my opinion. I too wonder about Olivia. I think it so clearly delineates that yes indeed - here Giles is the grownup and the others truly aren't the grownups. Not yet at least. Because grownups do have pasts. Messy, complicated, unexplained pasts. And thank God Giles is getting some. It was nice to see that. The best thing this episode did was combine true horror with the ultimate classic funny moment. The little show in the classroom with every single S'cubie acting in character from Anya's munching on popcorn to Buffy's horror at the way Giles drew her hips too big. Hee, hee. I just love that scene. I felt the monsters were so scary. That skeletal grin, the poor victims. I felt so bad for the victims. Television victims are so seldom explored - I mean you can't explore their character because it would take too much time. But I always feel intensely for them - whether they are some gruesome corpse on CSI on a terrified student who can't scream while their heart is being cut out. Shudder!!!!! I know this episode was all about communication but in a weird way you could also say it illustrated the dangers of growing up. At least for the college student - he went away to college and his heart was torn out and he couldnt' speak or do anything about it. Doesn't that always happen? Your heart gets torn out and all you can do is watch. Okay - totally weird segue there. Anyway - I'm not a Riley fan at all and there was not a moment I was ever a fan of him being with Buffy so there were some things I didn't like about this episode including the whole we have to talk bit. But it was a nice slam bam rousing ending with Buffy and the soldiers each doing their part to kill the Gentlemen. Gentlemen - shudder!!!!!!! I totally agree with the way you really feel for the victims here. It's the image - the struggling guy, unable to even call out for help, seeing what is going to happen. *shiver* In the commentary, Joss talks about how the idea of the people coming into your room was from a dream he had that scared him. The other ideas he gave the crew and cast about creating the Gentlemen were all other characters that scared him. Nosferatu, Pinhead and Mr Burns. He said he wanted to create his own image that would traumatise a generation of kids like he'd been scared by (I can't rememer the character). Nice goal. ;D
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Post by Lola m on Jul 11, 2005 19:09:07 GMT -5
A little trivia question for you all. Of our two episodes this week, ( Hush and Hero), which actually takes place “first” in the Jossverse timeline? Huh. Good question. Let's see. It was Pangs, Something Blue then Hush. Buffy went to see Angel after he heard he was in Sunnydale ( Pangs). IWRY was the episode right before Hero. Um. What was the question? ;D Oh, yeah - It appears that Hero came before Hush. I think. Man, Joss was cranking out the great Buffy/Angel stuff that year. Per Jan's suggestion, I'm moving my short comment from the main board to here. Yay! 2 of my picks made the top 10! And " Hush". Wow - what is it about this episode that is so scary? The creepy, smiley, floaty gentlemen? Or their silent straight-jacket wearing, limpy co-horts? Or jsut the whole not being able to scream in fear? Yep, you got the order right. ;D But they are very close together. I sometimes wonder if he was working different ways the same themes could be explored. I mean, we get the Scourge in Hero and the Initiative in BtVS. One is demons organizing to take out humanity, the other is humanity organizing to take out demon-kind. Neither able to see the grey area of demon and human blending or able to be evil and good. While the straight-jacket guys are scary the floating Gentlemen are . . . well, just downright terrifying to me. Their serene and "gentlemanly" and calm manner of slowly finding and cutting out the hearts of folks unable to fight or call out for help. Just. Ewwwwww! *shiver*
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Post by Pixi on Jul 11, 2005 19:35:39 GMT -5
I love this episode. Truly love it. Since I like scary movies this plays into that in that it is the scariest Buffy episode written. A masterpiece in my opinion. I too wonder about Olivia. I think it so clearly delineates that yes indeed - here Giles is the grownup and the others truly aren't the grownups. Not yet at least. Because grownups do have pasts. Messy, complicated, unexplained pasts. And thank God Giles is getting some. It was nice to see that. The best thing this episode did was combine true horror with the ultimate classic funny moment. The little show in the classroom with every single S'cubie acting in character from Anya's munching on popcorn to Buffy's horror at the way Giles drew her hips too big. Hee, hee. I just love that scene. I felt the monsters were so scary. That skeletal grin, the poor victims. I felt so bad for the victims. Television victims are so seldom explored - I mean you can't explore their character because it would take too much time. But I always feel intensely for them - whether they are some gruesome corpse on CSI on a terrified student who can't scream while their heart is being cut out. Shudder!!!!! I know this episode was all about communication but in a weird way you could also say it illustrated the dangers of growing up. At least for the college student - he went away to college and his heart was torn out and he couldnt' speak or do anything about it. Doesn't that always happen? Your heart gets torn out and all you can do is watch. Okay - totally weird segue there. Anyway - I'm not a Riley fan at all and there was not a moment I was ever a fan of him being with Buffy so there were some things I didn't like about this episode including the whole we have to talk bit. But it was a nice slam bam rousing ending with Buffy and the soldiers each doing their part to kill the Gentlemen. Gentlemen - shudder!!!!!!! I totally agree with the way you really feel for the victims here. It's the image - the struggling guy, unable to even call out for help, seeing what is going to happen. *shiver* In the commentary, Joss talks about how the idea of the people coming into your room was from a dream he had that scared him. The other ideas he gave the crew and cast about creating the Gentlemen were all other characters that scared him. Nosferatu, Pinhead and Mr Burns. He said he wanted to create his own image that would traumatise a generation of kids like he'd been scared by (I can't rememer the character). Nice goal. ;D Reallly? I don't have any DVD's so I haven't heard any commentary. Well - he certainly created an uberly scary image but I don't really think he succeeded in his goal of traumatization a generation of children. For one thing - children just didn't watch Buffy. I mean mine did - sometimes but they weren't overwhelmingly into it no matter how hard I tried to get them to be. Plus - kids just don't traumatize easy anymore do they? I mean CGI and the easy availability of Dawn of the dead zombies and gruesome murderers have most kids blase about monsters. Really the only way you can traumatize them now is to let them watch something really young. Then they would be traumatized but kind of not a good goal. ;D I know Hudson accidently saw IT. I mean Tim Curry scared the bejesus out of me and I was all grown up. It absolutely terrified him. I had no idea he had seen it and he has been frightened of clowns ever since. But then most sane people are frightened of clowns. Shudder!!! So well a laudable goal but probably unachievable. That doesn't take away from the fact that he created a memorable uber scary villain. If Buffy had been a mainstream show - he would have scared the pants off peoplein a truly classic we always remember like Dracula way. Truly.
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