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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 3, 2009 20:11:30 GMT -5
Bogus post for housekeeping reasons. Nothing to see, move it along . . .
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Post by Spike101 on Oct 20, 2009 16:00:00 GMT -5
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Post by Onjel on Nov 30, 2009 16:27:18 GMT -5
Great analysis, Spring! I have lots to say on the subject of adulthood vs. childhood. I had a very happy childhood. Had no trouble moving into adulthood. It's middle age that's the hardest, for me. I have two best times in my life: when I was five (no responsibilities, no cares, nothing but being taken care of, loved and allowed to play) and when I was 35 years old. Right now I'd love to be either of those ages.
It might be the weight of being self-employed in an ever-shrinking legal market, but I can relate to Buffy not wanting to run full steam ahead into the difficulties of taking care of oneself let alone others. I mean, it was painful enough to have to re-don the slayer mantle when she thought she was free of that worldly responsibility. It was difficult to take on the role of mother to Dawn when Buffy was still so much missing her own mother. It was a shock to know that all of a sudden she had to think about things like finances and making money to be mother to Dawn and care taker of a household. But, it was the height of solopsism for the S'cubies to expect that Buffy would "take care of everything" and in so doing take care of them and make everything all right. Their need to have someone provide them their moral center and strength of purpose caused her tremendous pain and I got the impression she felt used and was tired of that as well. Used by the Council, used by her friends, used by, yes even Dawn and basically by the world.
I know, I know, they professed to be saving Buffy, but sometimes the road to hell is pave with the best of intentions.
Great analysis, as always. Thanks for doing it.
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Post by dr76 on Dec 14, 2009 0:45:26 GMT -5
I agree. There are times when I wonder if "best intentions" really had anything to do with the Scoobies' decision to resurrect Buffy. Or were they simply using that as an excuse?
I also wonder if their decision to resurrect Buffy played a part in Buffy distancing herself from her friends during the series' last two seasons.
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 14, 2009 17:48:19 GMT -5
Great analysis, Spring! I have lots to say on the subject of adulthood vs. childhood. I had a very happy childhood. Had no trouble moving into adulthood. It's middle age that's the hardest, for me. I have two best times in my life: when I was five (no responsibilities, no cares, nothing but being taken care of, loved and allowed to play) and when I was 35 years old. Right now I'd love to be either of those ages. It might be the weight of being self-employed in an ever-shrinking legal market, but I can relate to Buffy not wanting to run full steam ahead into the difficulties of taking care of oneself let alone others. I mean, it was painful enough to have to re-don the slayer mantle when she thought she was free of that worldly responsibility. It was difficult to take on the role of mother to Dawn when Buffy was still so much missing her own mother. It was a shock to know that all of a sudden she had to think about things like finances and making money to be mother to Dawn and care taker of a household. But, it was the height of solopsism for the S'cubies to expect that Buffy would "take care of everything" and in so doing take care of them and make everything all right. Their need to have someone provide them their moral center and strength of purpose caused her tremendous pain and I got the impression she felt used and was tired of that as well. Used by the Council, used by her friends, used by, yes even Dawn and basically by the world. I know, I know, they professed to be saving Buffy, but sometimes the road to hell is pave with the best of intentions. Great analysis, as always. Thanks for doing it. Thanks for the feedback, Onjel. Buffy had the double-whammy going on: Extreme trauma coupled with overwhelming responsibility. She needed to take care of herself to deal with the former; she had no real time to take care of herself, due to the latter. Agree about "the road to hell." The Scoobies did think they were doing Buffy a huge favor (getting her out of Hell), but they certainly also saw themselves as doing something for themselves: Getting Buffy back - Buffy, someone to keep them safe and lead them and to an extent, mother them.
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 14, 2009 17:55:11 GMT -5
I agree. There are times when I wonder if "best intentions" really had anything to do with the Scoobies' decision to resurrect Buffy. Or were they simply using that as an excuse? I also wonder if their decision to resurrect Buffy played a part in Buffy distancing herself from her friends during the series' last two seasons. Welcome, dr76. Thanks for commenting on our discussion. Interesting comment about the Scoobies using "best intentions" as an excuse. They did believe Buffy was in Hell, so I can believe that they sincerely wanted her out of there . . . but I also think selfish concerns played a part. For Willow, it was partly just about DOING IT. She really, really, wanted to try the resurrection, and prove to herself she was powerful enough to do it. For the others, it was partly about getting their protector and leader back, taking some of the load off of themselves. I definitely do believe that the Scoobies actions in resurrecting Buffy was part of the reason she distanced herself afterward. I think she was underneath it all, very, very angry at them - but she couldn't face that anger.
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Post by lilac43 on Jan 14, 2010 18:13:50 GMT -5
Spring, I am so awed by your reviews, the insights that you find, time after time, that I never saw before, despite multiple multiple multiple watchings, until you opened my eyes to them. Even though I can now see the things that you talk about, I do not have the gift, as you do, for putting them into words. I absolutely cannot wait until you have finished them all. I am planning on then rewatching every episode with your reviews available so that I can experience buffy in it's true entirity. I can only wonder what Joss Whedon would say about your reviews, would he think that you somehow snuck into his mind and pulled out his ideas that perhaps he didn't even know that he had in mind when he wrote the scripts?
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 17, 2010 19:16:53 GMT -5
Spring, I am so awed by your reviews, the insights that you find, time after time, that I never saw before, despite multiple multiple multiple watchings, until you opened my eyes to them. Even though I can now see the things that you talk about, I do not have the gift, as you do, for putting them into words. I absolutely cannot wait until you have finished them all. I am planning on then rewatching every episode with your reviews available so that I can experience buffy in it's true entirity. I can only wonder what Joss Whedon would say about your reviews, would he think that you somehow snuck into his mind and pulled out his ideas that perhaps he didn't even know that he had in mind when he wrote the scripts? Though I imagine some stuff is subconscious or serendipity, I think most of the imagery and subtext (and the like) are quite deliberate on Joss's (and his writers) part. There is commentary on one of the eps . . . on the DVDs, and I can't remember now which one, where Joss comments on a ep he wrote . . . anyhow, he says something like "Every word I used in the dialog had something to do with the theme of the episode." So - I think he's very deliberate. The genius is that it's so well done, it's practically invisible. I have had some very, very challenging and difficult times in my life the last few years, and plans to use this summer to finish Season 6 went completely awry. But I do hope I can get back to these. Thanks so much for your comments.
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Post by lilac43 on Jan 28, 2010 19:28:57 GMT -5
It sounds like you've had it pretty hard the last several years. I'm so sorry about that. Just keep in mind that there is still much interest in your reviews and you have a lot of fans waiting eagerly for your wonderful insightfulness. I'm sure that it takes a lot of time to not only watch the episodes again, but to sit and analyze them and write about it. Thank you for doing what you have been able to do so far. You have acomplished so much and I enjoy coming back and rereading older ones that I had forgotten. It's just that there are sooooo many intriguing episodes in season 6 (& 7) and that Spike plays a much larger role, that I almost feel that these two seasons are what Spikecentricity is all about. These are the seasons in which we really get to know Spike, what he is feeling, why he is feeling and how he reacts to his feelings. Of course, I have my own opinions about these things, but I can't wait to hear yours!
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 28, 2010 19:54:23 GMT -5
It sounds like you've had it pretty hard the last several years. I'm so sorry about that. Just keep in mind that there is still much interest in your reviews and you have a lot of fans waiting eagerly for your wonderful insightfulness. I'm sure that it takes a lot of time to not only watch the episodes again, but to sit and analyze them and write about it. Thank you for doing what you have been able to do so far. You have acomplished so much and I enjoy coming back and rereading older ones that I had forgotten. It's just that there are sooooo many intriguing episodes in season 6 (& 7) and that Spike plays a much larger role, that I almost feel that these two seasons are what Spikecentricity is all about. These are the seasons in which we really get to know Spike, what he is feeling, why he is feeling and how he reacts to his feelings. Of course, I have my own opinions about these things, but I can't wait to hear yours! Hi, lilac - and I just noticed your Jan 14 post over on the other thread . . . sorry for not getting back to you. Yes, I have had incredibly difficult years the last few. Among some huge challenges and changes in my worklife, the last few years included the serious illness, and then death of my son, this past July. I was also a single mom, and it was all very trying . . . though it was worth every minute of that trying. It means a lot to me to get this encouragement. I am starting on a "health & wellness" adventure with a friend next month, that is going to include trying to get regular exercise. I am thinking of pulling out the stationary bike (currently being used as a hat and coat rack), and watching Buffy eps for review while I cycle . . . cannot promise this, but it could actually be therapeutic to get back to the reviews. Thanks so much for your understanding and encouraging note.
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Post by lilac43 on Apr 28, 2010 16:08:36 GMT -5
Spring, I was devestated to hear that your son passed away. Having a child of my own (I'm also a single mother) I cannot imagine how hard that must have been! No wonder you have not been posting reviews. Although I have never experienced your hardship personally, I will say that watching Buffy actually did get me through several of my own personal difficulties, including the sudden death of my father, a breakup after 10 years and the facing the pregnancy and birth of my daughter on my own with no help and much hinderance from the 'father'. Sarah Michelle Gellar's portrayal of Buffy shows us a way to be strong. Maybe we aren't fighting monsters in hand to hand combat, but we are fighting our own personal demons and we can either let them win or keep fighting and perhaps prevail. Suddenly, after my daughter grew into a little person and I find myself much happier than I have ever been consistently in the past 10 years, I find that I do not need Buffy so much, although I will always enjoy the show, I used to watch it over and over, season to season, then start again. I think that Buffy really did help me get through a very tough time in my life and although it may not exactly be for everyone, it is great to have a reminder that people can be strong, especially women! Hopefully, you are doing well, getting healthy and will someday come back around to Buffy, to enjoy a little bit of entertainment for entertainments sake and will be inspired to finish the amazingly insightful reviews for which you are famous. Take care, I hope to hear from you again sooner than later.
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Post by baunger1 on May 14, 2010 9:54:56 GMT -5
Hi Spring!
So I've been delaying watching this episode, because I knew it meant that this would be last of your work that I'd get to read (at least for now). Your analysis is wonderful, as always.
I really love the parallel you point out between Buffy in this episode and in Weight of the World. This time, that weight is inescapable. And it's not just about facing the the heavy practical burdens adult life brings her -- finances, raising Dawn -- or even the heavy responsibility of being the Slayer. It's the burden of realizing that the absolute morality, which has permitted her to make the terrible but necessary choices which allow her to function as the Slayer, are not really so absolute. And I agree that SMG is wonderful here at conveying Buffy's deadening grief.
I also think the episode points out an interesting contrast between Spike and the Scoobies. The Scoobies, have, in a sense, acted like children, as the demon in Buffy says. Like children, they have sought the gratification of their wishes without giving thought to the consequences, they overwhelm Buffy with their need for her to respond to their demands and questions when she's clearly incapable of doing so, and they try to pretend, despite all evidence to the contrary, that what they've done, and what Buffy is, is all OK. Spike, on the other hand, seems to be trying to put his own needs and desires aside in Buffy's best interests. He acknowledges that it was wrong to bring Buffy back, despite his own pain at having lost her (he can look Xander right in the eye on that one); he sees her pain ("her hands"), empathizes ("done it myself," injures his own hand --"same to you"), tries address both her physical and emotional injury ("we'll take care of you," "if you're in pain, if you need anything, if I can help you"), and, importantly, tries to fulfill her request to be alone, despite the fact that what he wants more than anything in the world is to be with her.
In behaving childishly, the Scoobies have regressed, but Spike is progressing -- toward adulthood and redemption. He can even (sort of) come out into daylight, because the "sun's low." He can come closer to the sun without being hurt...but he can't come all the way out...yet.
JM is great here, as you say. As an actor, he is so active in listening and responding to his fellow actors.
I read on previous posts about the difficulties and tremendous loss you have faced in the past few years, and extend my deepest sympathy.
I also want to thank you again. I think that for a number of years, the part of my brain that engages in the kind of analysis you do here has been lying dormant. You've really brought that back to life for me. It's been a real gift to me, and I'm grateful for it.
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Post by SpringSummers on May 14, 2010 12:10:01 GMT -5
Hi Spring! So I've been delaying watching this episode, because I knew it meant that this would be last of your work that I'd get to read (at least for now). Your analysis is wonderful, as always. Thanks so much. I do want to do more of these. I have to get so many things, including my brain, back at the place where I can do them. Good way to put it - I mean, that now, the weight is inescapable. This becomes even more true as the season progresses, and there is no Giles to "kill Ben" for her, anymore. Agree all the way. This contrast in Scooby/Spike behavior, and Buffy's underlying anger at the Scoobies for bringing her back (which she can't make herself face up to) is definitely part of what drives her to finding comfort in Spike. And despite some of the brutal and ugly aspects, and Buffy's extreme state of denial about the relationship for so long, the comfort they find in one another is quite real. I don't know that I would say the Scoobies regressed so much as they've stalled or slowed in their progression. There definitely is some "backsliding" that happens for them (and Spike too), but the overall vector is a forward one, IMO. By the end of the season, and then into Season 7, all the characters show that they have grown and learned. He is amazing! Thanks. Having this board and interest is helpful. You're welcome. And thanks to you, for getting us talking about this topic again. It really does get me thinking I should keep going . . . please check back again during the summer. I hope I can start again by then.
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jojo
N'ubie
Love is a funny thing
Posts: 3
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Post by jojo on Aug 15, 2010 16:08:16 GMT -5
First off - Spring - my profound sympathy for the loss of your son. Burying a child has to be the hardest thing in life. My nephew died after surgery when he was 11 - a few days after his birthday. I know how hard that was. I can't imagine losing one of mine.
I am a new Spikeaholic - I've had a rough year and to keep me sane my daughter introduce me to Buffy. Now I can't get enough of Spike. I love you reviews - I hope the time comes when you can pick them up again.
Two responses - I really don't think Spike would have shared his pain about losing Buffy given his response to the 'bot glitch (washboard abs) is to walk out. When the Scubies arrive to crowd Buffy, he leaves immediately to go out and cry in private rather than staying to tend to her, and even his scenes with Dawn - the angry determined insistence on following his promise even if it is too late is never leavened by any mention of Buffy. Since Dawn is probably the person he cared for most after Buffy - I think we would have seen any grieving there.
And I do believe bringing Buffy back to life was in part selfish - they needed the "Warrior of the People". The fact that Giles, Spike and Dawn were left out of the decision - the three most likely to object - shows they wanted her badly enough to keep from debate of any sort.
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 16, 2010 17:50:44 GMT -5
First off - Spring - my profound sympathy for the loss of your son. Burying a child has to be the hardest thing in life. My nephew died after surgery when he was 11 - a few days after his birthday. I know how hard that was. I can't imagine losing one of mine. Thanks. It has been a very difficult time. I hope so too. Things remain pretty crazy and challenging for me, but I'm hoping it can happen. Good points. He does seem to have grown closer to the Scoobies over the summer, and I think some of his hurt is in being left out. But I agree it doesn't seem likely he shared his deepest feelings with the Scoobies. Yes, agree. And for Willow, there was the further motivation of simply wanting to try it - wanting to do something that cool and risky and impressive. Please drop in anytime and comment on any of the reviews, anytime!!
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