Innocence Discussion

[William the Bloody]

Let the discussion begin!

[Spaced Out Looney]

Because people don’t die from love, and Angel is wrong when he tells Spike: "To kill this girl, you have to love her." No, that’s not going to work either. Here’s my favorite As You Like It quote: "Men have died from time to time, and worms have eaten them, but not for love."

I've always wondered what exactly Angel meant when he said that. Did you have any thoughts, Spring?

I do sort of wonder sometimes if Buffy feels that way though. Perhaps that feeling was part of the reason she felt so threatened by Spike's feelings for her, and part of her tendency to try to distance herself from those who care about her? I don't know, I'm just speculating.

[SpringSummers]

Spaced said:

I've always wondered what exactly Angel meant when he said that. Did you have any thoughts, Spring?

I think Angel is expressing a philosophy that is actually being discredited by the show and the episode - that to let yourself love and be loved is to let yourself be weak and vulnerable - that messing around with that love-stuff will kill you. He has loved Buffy and she has let him love her, so he knows her and he knows how to hurt her and how to get to her - and how to kill her.

Angel makes a point, in an upcoming episode (I Only Have Eyes for You) of calling love . . . I think it is "crap," as he tried to wash every trace of it off. He's not a big fan of it.

Of course, it IS true that love makes you vulnerable - it's even true that a part of Buffy sort of . . . temporarily dies due to her Angel love. But it is only temporary, and love, ultimately, makes you strong, and . . . people don't die from love. They live from love. Cordelia and Xander have some kind of exchange in this episode too, about dying for love.

I do sort of wonder sometimes if Buffy feels that way though. Perhaps that feeling was part of the reason she felt so threatened by Spike's feelings for her, and part of her tendency to try to distance herself from those who care about her? I don't know, I'm just speculating.

I always thought Buffy was threatened not so much by Spike's feelings for her, as her feelings for Spike. Though, both things are true, I think. It makes me think of Intervention again, when she worries she's losing her ability to love - she mentions how "shut down" she has been. And I do think that she does shut down her heart after she's so badly hurt by the Angel-thing. She is scared to love again, and Spike's intense feelings for her - and her intense feelings for him - scare her silly. Remember what Spike says to her, right before she shuts him up with a kiss in Smashed?
"Are you afraid?"

And she is afraid - she'll have sex with Spike, but only by telling herself a very strange thing: That none of it is real. Buffy's definition of reality is a very telling thing - about the state of her heart, and the state of her growth toward adulthood.

[Spaced Out Looney]

springsummers said:

Spaced said:

I've always wondered what exactly Angel meant when he said that. Did you have any thoughts, Spring?

I think Angel is expressing a philosophy that is actually being discredited by the show and the episode - that to let yourself love and be loved is to let yourself be weak and vulnerable - that messing around with that love-stuff will kill you. He has loved Buffy and she has let him love her, so he knows her and he knows how to hurt her and how to get to her - and how to kill her.

Angel makes a point, in an upcoming episode (I Only Have Eyes for You) of calling love . . . I think it is "crap," as he tried to wash every trace of it off. He's not a big fan of it.

Of course, it IS true that love makes you vulnerable - it's even true that a part of Buffy sort of . . . temporarily dies due to her Angel love. But it is only temporary, and love, ultimately, makes you strong, and . . . people don't die from love. They live from love. Cordelia and Xander have some kind of exchange in this episode too, about dying for love.

I do sort of wonder sometimes if Buffy feels that way though. Perhaps that feeling was part of the reason she felt so threatened by Spike's feelings for her, and part of her tendency to try to distance herself from those who care about her? I don't know, I'm just speculating.

I always thought Buffy was threatened not so much by Spike's feelings for her, as her feelings for Spike. Though, both things are true, I think. It makes me think of Intervention again, when she worries she's losing her ability to love - she mentions how "shut down" she has been. And I do think that she does shut down her heart after she's so badly hurt by the Angel-thing. She is scared to love again, and Spike's intense feelings for her - and her intense feelings for him - scare her silly. Remember what Spike says to her, right before she shuts him up with a kiss in Smashed?
"Are you afraid?"

And she is afraid - she'll have sex with Spike, but only by telling herself a very strange thing: That none of it is real. Buffy's definition of reality is a very telling thing - about the state of her heart, and the state of her growth toward adulthood.

I actually think I may have answered my own question on this, when I remembered this passage in Ender's Game.

"You think you can't beat the buggers unless you know them."

"It goes deeper than that. Being here alone with nothing to do, I've been thinking about myself too. Trying to understand why I hate myself so badly."

"No, Ender."

"Don't tell me 'No, Ender.' It took me a long time to realize that I did, but believe me, I did. Do. And it came down to this: in the moment I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love him. I think it's impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way that they love themselves. And then, in that very moment, when I *love* them-"

"You beat them." For a moment she was not afraid of his understanding.

"No, you don't understand. I *destroy* them. I make it impossible for them to ever hurt me again. I grind them and grind them until they don't *exist*."


I think that's what Angel meant when he said "in order to kill this girl, you have to love her." And also why Buffy is afraid of being loved by Spike.


Also ref Conner's comment in whatever episode that was, WRT the stuffed bear in the museum, "I love that one; I wish I had killed it." And Knox selecting Fred to be sacrificed for Illyria because he loved her (Fred, that is).

[SpringSummers]

ehills said:

springsummers said:

I think Angel is expressing a philosophy that is actually being discredited by the show and the episode - that to let yourself love and be loved is to let yourself be weak and vulnerable - that messing around with that love-stuff will kill you. He has loved Buffy and she has let him love her, so he knows her and he knows how to hurt her and how to get to her - and how to kill her.

Angel makes a point, in an upcoming episode (I Only Have Eyes for You) of calling love . . . I think it is "crap," as he tried to wash every trace of it off. He's not a big fan of it.

Of course, it IS true that love makes you vulnerable - it's even true that a part of Buffy sort of . . . temporarily dies due to her Angel love. But it is only temporary, and love, ultimately, makes you strong, and . . . people don't die from love. They live from love. Cordelia and Xander have some kind of exchange in this episode too, about dying for love.



I always thought Buffy was threatened not so much by Spike's feelings for her, as her feelings for Spike. Though, both things are true, I think. It makes me think of Intervention again, when she worries she's losing her ability to love - she mentions how "shut down" she has been. And I do think that she does shut down her heart after she's so badly hurt by the Angel-thing. She is scared to love again, and Spike's intense feelings for her - and her intense feelings for him - scare her silly. Remember what Spike says to her, right before she shuts him up with a kiss in Smashed?
"Are you afraid?"

And she is afraid - she'll have sex with Spike, but only by telling herself a very strange thing: That none of it is real. Buffy's definition of reality is a very telling thing - about the state of her heart, and the state of her growth toward adulthood.

I actually think I may have answered my own question on this, when I remembered this passage in Ender's Game.

"You think you can't beat the buggers unless you know them."

"It goes deeper than that. Being here alone with nothing to do, I've been thinking about myself too. Trying to understand why I hate myself so badly."

"No, Ender."

"Don't tell me 'No, Ender.' It took me a long time to realize that I did, but believe me, I did. Do. And it came down to this: in the moment I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love him. I think it's impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way that they love themselves. And then, in that very moment, when I *love* them-"

"You beat them." For a moment she was not afraid of his understanding.

"No, you don't understand. I *destroy* them. I make it impossible for them to ever hurt me again. I grind them and grind them until they don't *exist*."


I think that's what Angel meant when he said "in order to kill this girl, you have to love her." And also why Buffy is afraid of being loved by Spike.


Also ref Conner's comment in whatever episode that was, WRT the stuffed bear in the museum, "I love that one; I wish I had killed it." And Knox selecting Fred to be sacrificed for Illyria because he loved her (Fred, that is).

Yes - nice parallel. Thanks for adding this here.

I agree that this quote is very relevant to what is going on in Angel's head also, when he says what he says. Love - giving it and receiving it, is what makes you vulnerable.

Angel wants Buffy to be vulnerable to him, but he doesn't want to be vulnerable to her.

And yep, it speaks to Buffy's fear of love also (well, I guess it speaks to anyone's fear of love, really - fear of being vulnerable, of being hurt).

I don't know if Knox quites fits this - I confess I don't remember it all that clearly, but I had more the impression that Knox was sort of . . . honoring Fred by choosing her, rather than wanting to . . . grind her out of existence. But maybe the idea is that underneath it all, Knox was motivated in the same way, no matter what the outward appearance, or what he was telling himself (again, I can't remember the specifics on the Knox-thing all that clearly, and haven't rewatched in ages).

[williamtheb]

Hi Spring! (I've logged in before as a guest under William B.)

I'm in awe. I recently co-reviewed Innocence again--I didn't reread your review until afterwards. And it's so impressive how you cut to the heart of what the episode is about. Roles. Destructive and healing power of love. Time. It's just perfect.

One of the observations I really loved was about the Xander/Angel parallel. Xander remembers his time as a soldier and uses it to his advantage; Angelus remembers his time as Angel and uses that to his advantage. On the one hand it connects the artificiality of Angel to the artificiality of soldier-Xander. But on the other, it suggests something about Xander: soldier-Xander was a bit of an idealized version of himself, a strong male figure who *also* willingly followed orders from women (such as Willow). Despite the skeevy parallels showing Xander objectifying Cordelia the way Angelus objectifies Buffy, Xander, unlike Angelus, uses his time as a "better" person to good use. He's the one who gives Buffy his male-coded power in the rocket launcher. Go Xander!

One other thing I noticed: Xander's gift to Buffy is an "arm" [weapon] in a box, just like Spike's gift to Drusilla. And Angel's contribution in Surprise was to try--and fail--to take the weapon away. Angel tries to protect Buffy from male-coded power and fails; Xander tries to help share with Buffy male coded power and succeeds. So does Spike in a different way, but right now he's with Dru and not Buffy so it means EVILL...

The Willow/Xander scene where she calls him sick is heartbreaking. It also is very similar to the way Xander shames Buffy for sleeping with Spike in late season six. Willow doesn't try to kill Cordelia, but the sentiment is remarkably similar--that Cordelia/Spike are unworthy, and if Xander/Buffy needed to kiss/have sex that badly why couldn't it be Willow/Xander?

Oz as the ultimate key to how to get out of the role works for me. I'll add that in Phases this is sort of undercut--because then, Willow really wants to play the role Oz has set out for her, but Oz continues to wait, and refuses to say why. (I'm talking before he finds out he's a werewolf.) Willow is obsessed with the role she has to play--would it make her a slut if she made the first move?--and Oz just sort of waits for her to run her energy out. He's not always as clear as he is here. It's interesting.

"He can burn the humanity out of people, and it is looking very much as if some customers will have to just die combusting. "

"And in an episode that is full of references to songs and singing, she lights a candle on Buffy’s birthday cupcake and says, "I don’t have to sing, do I?" No, Joyce, this isn’t that episode where everyone has to sing.

And another birthday tradition bites the dust when Buffy decides not to blow out the candle to make a wish. "Let it burn," says Buffy. She will walk through the fire."

You know I *really* want to hear your thoughts on OMWF now....

[SpringSummers]

Dec 16, 2010 22:57:41 GMT -5 williamtheb said:

Hi Spring! (I've logged in before as a guest under William B.)

I'm in awe. I recently co-reviewed Innocence again--I didn't reread your review until afterwards. And it's so impressive how you cut to the heart of what the episode is about. Roles. Destructive and healing power of love. Time. It's just perfect.

Thank you.

One of the observations I really loved was about the Xander/Angel parallel. Xander remembers his time as a soldier and uses it to his advantage; Angelus remembers his time as Angel and uses that to his advantage. On the one hand it connects the artificiality of Angel to the artificiality of soldier-Xander. But on the other, it suggests something about Xander: soldier-Xander was a bit of an idealized version of himself, a strong male figure who *also* willingly followed orders from women (such as Willow). Despite the skeevy parallels showing Xander objectifying Cordelia the way Angelus objectifies Buffy, Xander, unlike Angelus, uses his time as a "better" person to good use. He's the one who gives Buffy his male-coded power in the rocket launcher. Go Xander!

Yes, ultimately, Xander plays the good guy here - big diff from Angel in this episode, despite the parallels.

Xander's skeevy behavior is due to his insecurities and his immaturities, but it is not motivated by a sadistic desire to hurt.

One other thing I noticed: Xander's gift to Buffy is an "arm" [weapon] in a box, just like Spike's gift to Drusilla. And Angel's contribution in Surprise was to try--and fail--to take the weapon away. Angel tries to protect Buffy from male-coded power and fails; Xander tries to help share with Buffy male coded power and succeeds. So does Spike in a different way, but right now he's with Dru and not Buffy so it means EVILL...

Yes, great catch, I had not even noticed that.

Definitely agree with your interpretation, re Angel's view of Buffy (he's attracted to innocence/girly side) and Xander (he's attracted to the hero).

Xander and Spike are quite alike in this, as you say. For Spike now, it's all about Dru.

The Willow/Xander scene where she calls him sick is heartbreaking. It also is very similar to the way Xander shames Buffy for sleeping with Spike in late season six. Willow doesn't try to kill Cordelia, but the sentiment is remarkably similar--that Cordelia/Spike are unworthy, and if Xander/Buffy needed to kiss/have sex that badly why couldn't it be Willow/Xander?

Yes, same sentiment for those two scenes, very true.

Oz as the ultimate key to how to get out of the role works for me. I'll add that in Phases this is sort of undercut--because then, Willow really wants to play the role Oz has set out for her, but Oz continues to wait, and refuses to say why. (I'm talking before he finds out he's a werewolf.) Willow is obsessed with the role she has to play--would it make her a slut if she made the first move?--and Oz just sort of waits for her to run her energy out. He's not always as clear as he is here. It's interesting.

It has been a long time since I've seen Phases, so - I don't have a theory here. Maybe there is something about Willow's approach that still makes him uncertain that she's truly in love with him.

"He can burn the humanity out of people, and it is looking very much as if some customers will have to just die combusting. "

"And in an episode that is full of references to songs and singing, she lights a candle on Buffy’s birthday cupcake and says, "I don’t have to sing, do I?" No, Joyce, this isn’t that episode where everyone has to sing.

And another birthday tradition bites the dust when Buffy decides not to blow out the candle to make a wish. "Let it burn," says Buffy. She will walk through the fire."

You know I *really* want to hear your thoughts on OMWF now....

OMG! Someone noticed and commented on my repeated references to OMWF, in my Innocence analysis!! Hooorah!!

Yes, I do believe these references to be 100% deliberate on Joss's part . . . and not just "retroactively." I think he was contemplating a "musical episode" one day, when he wrote this episode.

I have many thoughts on OMWF.

Oh, I have to find a way to get back to my analyses, don't I? I keep saying I will, but so many, many, things have gotten in the way.

[williamtheb]

Yes, ultimately, Xander plays the good guy here - big diff from Angel in this episode, despite the parallels.

Xander's skeevy behavior is due to his insecurities and his immaturities, but it is not motivated by a sadistic desire to hurt.

Absolutely. There was a website that tracked how many lines each character had in each episode, and Xander came in only about two or three lines behind Buffy. (Buffy of course has a lot of silent scenes.) Xander kind of is the second lead of this episode in a way--and his role is to give Buffy the rocket launcher, not to use it himself.

OMG! Someone noticed and commented on my repeated references to OMWF, in my Innocence analysis!! Hooorah!!

Yes, I do believe these references to be 100% deliberate on Joss's part . . . and not just "retroactively." I think he was contemplating a "musical episode" one day, when he wrote this episode.

I have many thoughts on OMWF.

Oh, I have to find a way to get back to my analyses, don't I? I keep saying I will, but so many, many, things have gotten in the way.

I had noticed before about the "Let it burn" mention in your review, and how that connects to Walk Through the Fire...but it was this reading where I noticed the "some customers just die combusting" line. Which is really brilliant--I mean, not that I think that line was meant to foreshadow OMWF, but that the line in OMWF seems to call back to that moment specifically. I do hope you get to the analyses--no pressure but I want to see what your thoughts about OMWF are!

[SpringSummers]

Dec 18, 2010 8:36:36 GMT -5 williamtheb said:

Yes, ultimately, Xander plays the good guy here - big diff from Angel in this episode, despite the parallels.

Xander's skeevy behavior is due to his insecurities and his immaturities, but it is not motivated by a sadistic desire to hurt.

Absolutely. There was a website that tracked how many lines each character had in each episode, and Xander came in only about two or three lines behind Buffy. (Buffy of course has a lot of silent scenes.) Xander kind of is the second lead of this episode in a way--and his role is to give Buffy the rocket launcher, not to use it himself.

Yes, the gender empowerment thing is a big part of this episode, and Xander, despite the Cordy thing, is at the forefront of that - he willingly, even enthusiastically, hands over the power to Buffy, in the form of the rocket launcher.

I think the Cordy-thing is important though, because it points to the fact that Xander does have his insecurities - and as we are going to find out in other ways, he's not 100% immune from the desire to "be in the white knight role" when it comes to the woman in his life.

When it comes to Angel vs Xander - well, I'm not sure how many people would agree, but to me - if you look past the superficial "Buffy POV" of the idealized presentation of Angel - Xander comes out ahead (IMO: way ahead) when it comes to his feelings and concern for Buffy.

My deliberate "Spike-focus" in the analyses means I sometimes don't do the other characters justice in the write-up. But honestly, if I tried to look at all the characters and complexities, I would never finish.

So I love to read comments like this on the other characters' roles in the ep.

OMG! Someone noticed and commented on my repeated references to OMWF, in my Innocence analysis!! Hooorah!!

Yes, I do believe these references to be 100% deliberate on Joss's part . . . and not just "retroactively." I think he was contemplating a "musical episode" one day, when he wrote this episode.

I have many thoughts on OMWF.

Oh, I have to find a way to get back to my analyses, don't I? I keep saying I will, but so many, many, things have gotten in the way.

I had noticed before about the "Let it burn" mention in your review, and how that connects to Walk Through the Fire...but it was this reading where I noticed the "some customers just die combusting" line. Which is really brilliant--I mean, not that I think that line was meant to foreshadow OMWF, but that the line in OMWF seems to call back to that moment specifically. I do hope you get to the analyses--no pressure but I want to see what your thoughts about OMWF are!

I'm with you on this - I don't think the line "let it burn" was meant to foreshadow OMWF, anymore than I think the "combusting customers" line was already in Joss's head when he wrote the mall scene in Innocence.

That was Joss, referring back to Innocence, as he wrote OMWF. Which is interesting, no? Why are we being reminded so heavily of Innocence? Lots to think about.

BUT - I do think he was contemplating a musical ep by this time, and may have had the idea that it would involve magical reasons that everyone was forced to sing. Angel mentions a being the understudy for a lead in a musical, Joyce talks about "having to sing," and Joyce and Buffy are watching a musical at the end of the ep.

William - I really appreciate your comments - it's fun to think about these analyses again . . . crackers, I MUST find a way to get through Season Six!!

[williamtheb]

Yes, the gender empowerment thing is a big part of this episode, and Xander, despite the Cordy thing, is at the forefront of that - he willingly, even enthusiastically, hands over the power to Buffy, in the form of the rocket launcher.

I think the Cordy-thing is important though, because it points to the fact that Xander does have his insecurities - and as we are going to find out in other ways, he's not 100% immune from the desire to "be in the white knight role" when it comes to the woman in his life.

Absolutely. I think he starts trying to move away from the white knight thing after Revelations and the near total meltdown between him and Buffy. But it doesn't quite go away for a long while.

When it comes to Angel vs Xander - well, I'm not sure how many people would agree, but to me - if you look past the superficial "Buffy POV" of the idealized presentation of Angel - Xander comes out ahead (IMO: way ahead) when it comes to his feelings and concern for Buffy.

Absolutely. Xander is...a little creepy in his fixation on Buffy, and crosses some boundaries. But not nearly as much as Angel does. And he does give so much for her. Prophecy Girl is another great episode for the contrast. Angel just sits around expecting her to die. Xander really steps up. (I love Angel, but he has his own big issues.)

My deliberate "Spike-focus" in the analyses means I sometimes don't do the other characters justice in the write-up. But honestly, if I tried to look at all the characters and complexities, I would never finish. So I love to read comments like this on the other characters' roles in the ep.

I hear you. Everyone in the show is so complex.

I'm with you on this - I don't think the line "let it burn" was meant to foreshadow OMWF, anymore than I think the "combusting customers" line was already in Joss's head when he wrote the mall scene in Innocence.

That was Joss, referring back to Innocence, as he wrote OMWF. Which is interesting, no? Why are we being reminded so heavily of Innocence? Lots to think about.

Indeed! I really do wonder why Innocence is referenced in OMWF. I notice that season six references season two a lot, especially at the end of the season. In Seeing Red, Willow & Tara's red bedsheets remind me of Angel's bed here...and the episode, like Innocence, has Buffy in a rare victim mode (from Spike instead of Angel)...and Willow goes evil, like Angel did....

I really do hope you get to season six. There's just so much going on with everyone. Thanks for replying to my comments